DVD Audio? Heck why not Blu Ray Audio? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 11-09-2011, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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So this is going to sound dumb. But here it goes. I have a current Pioneer DVD-Audio/SACD player with the analogue outs and it serves it's purpose.

However with Blu Ray taking over, why are we not just seeing BluRay Audio discs? Heck maybe we are, but why can't we just go this route and phase out the older formats?

Again, maybe answered hundred times, but I'm a noob I guess.

Moving from those analogues to just an HDMI would be an easy transition.
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post #2 of 47 Old 11-09-2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C*Tedesco View Post

So this is going to sound dumb. But here it goes. I have a current Pioneer DVD-Audio/SACD player with the analogue outs and it serves it's purpose.

However with Blu Ray taking over, why are we not just seeing BluRay Audio discs? Heck maybe we are, but why can't we just go this route and phase out the older formats?

Again, maybe answered hundred times, but I'm a noob I guess.

Moving from those analogues to just an HDMI would be an easy transition.

There are some BluRay Audio discs but they are not catching on fast.
http://www.pureaudio-bluray.com/

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post #3 of 47 Old 11-09-2011, 08:52 PM
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Yes, surround releases rallying around a single format would make perfect sense -so, of course, it wont happen. Given that both DVD-A and SACD have largely failed as formats, adopting bluray that has at least a fighting chance as a format for hires audio would seem the way to go.

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post #4 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 04:55 AM
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One reason could be multi channel HD audio is such a small/niche market and already uses SA-CD/DVD-A.

Another reason may be that BD is becoming main stream and when J6P buys a BD he EXPECTS video too. So an audio only (Profile 3) creates customer confusion.
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post #5 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 05:18 AM
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It could be price too. They've released two BDs of Pink Floyd music and they are priced above $100 with a lot of promotional materials, way out of my price range. If they were $20 a BD disk I would purchase them immediately.
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post #6 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 05:39 AM
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The other problem is the move to non physical mediums. I think the push is to download and stream. From a financial point of view, much cheaper, hence more profit.

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post #7 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakstone View Post

The other problem is the move to non physical mediums. I think the push is to download and stream. From a financial point of view, much cheaper, hence more profit.

I love HDTracks but they are strictly stereo, no "multi-channel" material and I like multichannel. I've downloaded a lot from them anyway while buying a few DVD-As from Amazon.
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post #8 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

One reason could be multi channel HD audio is such a small/niche market and already uses SA-CD/DVD-A.

I'm sure that is part of it. Trouble is, DVD-A and SACD are largely dead-end formats - in other words, they are unlikely to be attracting many new consumers. While Bluray may not be setting the world on fire for hirez/5.1 audio, at least it is a format viable into the future, and presumably can attract new consumers (who will increasingly have an installed base of compatible players).

I had found it curious, for example, that Rush are releasing subsequent 5.1 albums only on DVD-A - when they released Moving Pictures on both DVD-A and Bluray. Presumably they are doing this because the DVD-A sold far better?

I think the Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull releases have done it right, at least in the choice of media for the surround options. Just my opiniob, of course.

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post #9 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by hakstone View Post

The other problem is the move to non physical mediums. I think the push is to download and stream. From a financial point of view, much cheaper, hence more profit.

True, but as Theresa points out, 5.1 downloads are problematic. Also, the poularity of the Wish You Were Here standalone SACD certainly demonstrates there is a niche consumer who wants this stuff, and is willing to pay a premium. Interesting though, I wonder if the WYWH in 5.1 would have sold better or worse if it had been on Bluray?

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post #10 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 06:19 AM
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The biggest classical music label today - Naxos - has been releasing selected titles on Blu-ray audio discs for some time now

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?studioid=137 (not all in this list are audio-only)
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post #11 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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This is very interesting. I did go to Amazon and search on BluRay Audio. Only found a couple, one being the Moving Pictures the other a best of Tom Petty? I just think now is the time to really start moving these BR Audio discs since they are in more households than DVD A or SACD? Am I wrong?

Anyone hear firsthand the Rush Moving Pictures disc? It's something I might pick up.
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post #12 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 07:11 AM
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There is a reason why MC audio does not catch up. Money makers for music industry are teens. And if they buy music, it is for listening on their iPhones. So no surround is needed. Now you need to beg Apple to include virtual surround processor into new generation of iPhones. When (or if) it happens, you will see an explosion of multichannel releases.
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post #13 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C*Tedesco View Post

Anyone hear firsthand the Rush Moving Pictures disc? It's something I might pick up.

Moving Pictures is a solid disc. Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson had released their last 6 discs in DVD-A but evidently all future releases will be Bluray audio instead.

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post #14 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 12:53 PM
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Money makers for music industry are teens. And if they buy music, it is for listening on their iPhones. So no surround is needed

+1

For real, which title makes more money for a music label, the latest Lady Gaga album or yet another remastered version of a Gordon Lightfoot or Journey album?

Also:

From what I have read elsewhere Blu-ray authoring software and the licensing for it is much more expensive than for dvd-audio, and manufacturing costs for the Blu-ray discs themselves is also more expensive.

Also, there are for whatever reason, an increasing number of factory installed, dvd-audio-based surround systems available from several major car companies particularly GM and Acura. But I have never personally seen a Blu-ray player announced for any car model and it's not difficult to figure out why: who needs 1080 resolution for seven inch monitors or 192/24 PCM audio for the noisy mobile enviroment? And can a Blu-ray drive/reading mechanism even cope with the vibration and jolts that even a Lexus exhibits going down a typical city street?

Btw I think the mobile environment is a great place for surround sound, sourced either from a lossy or lossless format, because the location of the sweet spot(s) are not in doubt, so the engineers can design a system that consistantly sounds good. AND for many people, their car is the only place they get to enjoy their music, either because of family issues or lack of time once they get home. Some proof of that is the ailing (to me anyway) home audio market and some proof of that is the many comments here and elsewhere concerning the number of people, especially people under @30 years old, who don't own and have no desire to own a home-based audio system.
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post #15 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Regarding the DVD-Audio in cars. I have the 2010 Acura MDX and yes, it has the ELS DVD-A system and it couldn't sound better for a stock set up. It's awesome. Beck Sea Change in DVD-Audio in the car is remarkable.

I'm suprised that they are still including it and marketing it in their brochures, but I"m glad they are.
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post #16 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 01:59 PM
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Yea, my CTS has this dvd-a format as well. I don't get it; a 2nd place finisher in a 2 horse format-race. Why bring it back??
While browsing at Amazon for dvd-a they mix dvds in there with dvd-a ugh!---. I will get a couple to try.sooner or later. I do like the sound of the system enough to hear what dvd-a brings to the table/car.
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post #17 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donutfan View Post

+1

For real, which title makes more money for a music label, the latest Lady Gaga album or yet another remastered version of a Gordon Lightfoot or Journey album?

Of course! Doesn't mean that surround-sound versions of notable albums aren't worth doing however. The entertainment industry has always had a chronic case of 'me too' so I am hopeful that the WYWH SACD will turn a profit and that will spawn a raft of immitators (ideally on bluray, but I'm shamefully easy and woud take SACD or DVD-A instead).

Cannot speak to the cost of Bluray versus DVD-A, although the lack of releases in the latter format may make facilities to do the work increasingly scarce.

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post #18 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 02:05 PM
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I think DVD-A is terminal but not dead yet. I think this can be said of all other physical media too.
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post #19 of 47 Old 11-10-2011, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I think DVD-A is terminal but not dead yet. I think this can be said of all other physical media too.

I've made my own DVD-A's by burning some DTS tracks found on some of my DVD-Video discs to create a DVD-A version (hit play with no menu navigation required) HD-Solo

The AQ is way better than typical CDs (e.g. Eagles: Hell Freezes Over DTS DVD to DVD-A sounds nice!)

There's some s/w to upconvert WAV's to higher sampling rates (PCM) but I've not tried that yet)

I'm really hoping that BD-A will take off. Just needs some good releases to kick it off. Surely it can't be too expensive to take some older multi-channel analogue masters used for SACD and DVD-A and encode to DTS-MA or PCM at 24/96?
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post #20 of 47 Old 11-12-2011, 10:00 AM
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The market is so fragmented now that I doubt any format for Hi-Rez audio will survive without someone making it a "life mission." DVD Audio is pretty much done. SACD still survives but can't be ripped to a hard drive. BD has a couple of attempts but nothing creating a new source of hi-rez audio.

A BD exception is classical. Lots of opera and symphonic works are now being published in BD. Turn off your monitor and you have great music.

Downloading hi rez music, in my opinion, is the true future. A niche group of producers appealing to a niche market. 2L, Lynn, iTrax to name a few.

I wish it wern't so. I am a soundtrack fantatic and I am depressed that all soundtracks are now produced in 5.1 and yet are all released in standard CD 2.0 format. An exception is the 5.1 BD of Inception (included with the Inception BD).

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post #21 of 47 Old 11-13-2011, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Pilot View Post

DVD Audio is pretty much done.

The hardware and disc prices are low, and I've always thought that this is where the hi rez music biz should go, both for stereo and 5.1 music.

With ~5GB for single layer and ~9GB for dual layer, DVD discs have both the needed space and there isn't the exorbitant fee structure that rides along with blu-ray discs.

Also the players are still available and likely will be for a long time to come due to DVD movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Pilot View Post

SACD still survives but can't be ripped to a hard drive.

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Pilot View Post

BD has a couple of attempts but nothing creating a new source of hi-rez audio. A BD exception is classical. Lots of opera and symphonic works are now being published in BD. Turn off your monitor and you have great music.

AFAIK digital perfect rips of BD music to HDD cannot easily be done by owners; and if it can, is it legal to do?

IMO if they wised up and made it easy/legal then sales would take off.

Which is why CD discs continue to be popular despite their downturn due to download of low rez mp3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Pilot View Post

Downloading hi rez music, in my opinion, is the true future. A niche group of producers appealing to a niche market. 2L, Lynn, iTrax to name a few.

Then the future is still a long way away.

BTW it's Linn; see http://www.linnrecords.com/

2L has a very nice set of free hi rez samples at http://www.2l.no/
Top right click on 2L Brand Store, then select pull down of Test Bench HD Audio Files

About an hours worth of hi rez music in stereo and 5.1

My recent experience in Win7/64 Pro is that setting up a software player to play hi rez music properly is tricky, needing both proper choices in the Windows driver and also in the player.

Given how tricky the PC setup still is, I don't see downloading hi rez as serious at this time. However I am impressed by how good it is. Not to mention it needs 3x HDD space (compared to redbook, roughly 1.0GB for an hour of stereo 24/96 .flac, which means a serious broadband internet connection is mandatory), and it costs *more* than 3x that of a used CD from amazon, and if you don't like what it sounds like you can't legally sell it or give it away whereas with a used CD you can.

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post #22 of 47 Old 11-14-2011, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks OtherSongs, I'm checking out the 2L site now. Question, I see the Test Benches, are these also steaming at Hi Rez? Or do you have to download first?

UPDATE:Got my answer from the source;

Hi Chris

The streams/previews are only low res (mono) MP3 files. If you like and want high-res MP3s (320 kbps) you have to buy them ;-).

Best Regards
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post #23 of 47 Old 11-14-2011, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C*Tedesco View Post

Thanks OtherSongs, I'm checking out the 2L site now. Question, I see the Test Benches, are these also steaming at Hi Rez? Or do you have to download first?

UPDATE:Got my answer from the source;

Hi Chris

The streams/previews are only low res (mono) MP3 files. If you like and want high-res MP3s (320 kbps) you have to buy them ;-).

Best Regards
Daggan

You did something wrong. Go to web site. Open "Test Bench" section, and you will see a list of files available to download. Choose one you want and then click on file size link. Enter user name and password per instruction from that page. You will then get FLAC file with option to save it.
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post #24 of 47 Old 11-14-2011, 01:51 PM
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Someone mentioned Tom Petty on BD. I bought this disc to see if the SQ was gong to be something wonderful. It sounds good but I don't think TP's music really lends itself to bring out the capabilities of BD-A. I am kinda of disappointed and given a choice I would not buy it again. I think however the format BD-A has a chance to make it since one does not need to buy a special player to play the format to enjoy the capabilities. As with other formats, it comes down to the quality of remastering.
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post #25 of 47 Old 11-14-2011, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insmanblue View Post

Someone mentioned Tom Petty on BD. I bought this disc to see if the SQ was gong to be something wonderful. It sounds good but I don't think TP's music really lends itself to bring out the capabilities of BD-A. I am kinda of disappointed and given a choice I would not buy it again. I think however the format BD-A has a chance to make it since one does not need to buy a special player to play the format to enjoy the capabilities. As with other formats, it comes down to the quality of remastering.

Don't you need a Blu-ray player to play BD-A's? I think it can be said that at this time, Blu-ray players ARE considered "special".

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post #26 of 47 Old 11-14-2011, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rich3fan View Post

Don't you need a Blu-ray player to play BD-A's? I think it can be said that at this time, Blu-ray players ARE considered "special".

Not at all. You now hardly can find pure DVD player in any electronic store. And something which cost less than $100 cannot be considered special.
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post #27 of 47 Old 11-14-2011, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rich3fan View Post

Don't you need a Blu-ray player to play BD-A's? I think it can be said that at this time, Blu-ray players ARE considered "special".

OK if you want to nick pic, any $100 or less BD player is not special in my book.
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post #28 of 47 Old 11-14-2011, 04:14 PM
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DVD-Audio is still viable because

1) You can make your own. Anything that comes out in any 5.1 format can be made into a DVD-A by a consumer with a PC that will sound as good as the source (or better in the case of old Quadraphonic stuff)

2) Cars are still being sold with DVD-A players in them, even 2012 cars. In fact, I would venture to say that there are more DVD-Audio players on the road than in the home. (Of course, 90% of those car owners have no idea that they have DVD-A capability)

[Early Adopter]
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post #29 of 47 Old 11-14-2011, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Pilot View Post

SACD still survives but can't be ripped to a hard drive. Marcus

SACD can be ripped to a hard drive.
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post #30 of 47 Old 11-14-2011, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oblio98 View Post

DVD-Audio is still viable because

1) You can make your own. Anything that comes out in any 5.1 format can be made into a DVD-A by a consumer with a PC that will sound as good as the source (or better in the case of old Quadraphonic stuff)

2) Cars are still being sold with DVD-A players in them, even 2012 cars. In fact, I would venture to say that there are more DVD-Audio players on the road than in the home. (Of course, 90% of those car owners have no idea that they have DVD-A capability)

Regarding the car owners. I have to agree. I do have the MDX and the DVD-A is superb. At my place of work, 4 others have the same car with the same ELS system. Not one has any idea. I let them know and even lent my Sea Change disc to one of them. They just don't care. Bah!
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