SACD over HDMI player - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 11-23-2011, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello

I am looking to buy a new receiver since my current old one does not have HDMI or support for DTS-MA formats etc...

I currently own a SONY SACD player that only outputs SACD over analog 5.1 output. Unfortunately it looks like majority of new A/V receivers do not come with 5.1 analog input.

So my questions is - any recommendations on cheap ($100 and less) SACD players that will output 5.1 SACD audio over HDMI ? Are there limitation / compromises in sound quality vs analog 5.1 output ?

thanks!
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post #2 of 39 Old 11-23-2011, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulo View Post

So my questions is - any recommendations on cheap ($100 and less) SACD players that will output 5.1 SACD audio over HDMI ?

Yup. Saw some Sonys at BB yesterday for $89.95.

Quote:


Are there limitation / compromises in sound quality vs analog 5.1 output ?

Generally, no, but it depends on the devices you connect
them to.

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post #3 of 39 Old 11-23-2011, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yup. Saw some Sonys at BB yesterday for $89.95.

Generally, no, but it depends on the devices you connect
them to.


do you know by a chance what the model was ?

I was looking at Pioneer Dv610av which is $100 on amazon.

It says in the manual "If the connected HDMI device is not compatible with protected audio contents (such as DVD-Audio or
SACD), SACD audio is not output from the HDMI terminal."

Are A/V receivers generally certified for SACD audio via HDMI ?

thanks
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post #4 of 39 Old 11-23-2011, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulo View Post

do you know by a chance what the model was ?

Not sure. S380 or S480 or something like that. It is a BluRay player but it does SACD (check the logos) via HDMI.

Quote:


I was looking at Pioneer Dv610av which is $100 on amazon.

It says in the manual "If the connected HDMI device is not compatible with protected audio contents (such as DVD-Audio or
SACD), SACD audio is not output from the HDMI terminal."

Weird. Any v1.1 HDMI or later will be fine since most players (like the Sonys) will output PCM if the receiver cannot handle DSD.

Quote:


Are A/V receivers generally certified for SACD audio via HDMI?

??? Certified? Any AVR with HDMI v1.1 or later should be fine but the user's manual will tell all.

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post #5 of 39 Old 11-23-2011, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Not sure. S380 or S480 or something like that. It is a BluRay player but it does SACD (check the logos) via HDMI.

Weird. Any v1.1 HDMI or later will be fine since most players (like the Sonys) will output PCM if the receiver cannot handle DSD.

So is it preferable to buy a receiver that can handle DSD in addition to just 5.1 PCM over hdmi ?

thanks!
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post #6 of 39 Old 11-23-2011, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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btw it looks like Sony BDP-S380 does play SACD over HDMI and it's $79.99 on amazon so that's pretty decent, thanks
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post #7 of 39 Old 11-23-2011, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulo View Post

So is it preferable to buy a receiver that can handle DSD in addition to just 5.1 PCM over hdmi ?

thanks!

Makes little difference. I have a processor in my better system that does not accept DSD (only PCM) but one in my lesser system that does both. I would not let this be a deciding factor.

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post #8 of 39 Old 11-26-2011, 04:18 AM
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IMHO to fully enjoy the benefits of SACD you need either:

1. Super good quality DSD decoding Sony or Marantz SACD player with 5.1 ANALOG outputs into a decent receiver or separates.

2. Oppo DV-980H cheapest DSD streaming player (i even got a spare)
with an DSD decoding receiver or separate. Big Onkyo/Integra fan here.

You also need equidistant cabling and speaker placement by Dolby standards:


Let me 'splain, by using cables of same length (or 10AWG Belden silver/gold terminated to make cable lenght irrelevant at sub-50ft) you
get to put your processor/receiver in PURE DIRECT mode and allow for
the 1 step DSD-analog conversion with absolutely no processing.

Lastly monoblock separates with balanced interconnects. I will also go as
far as to use isolated and balanced PSUs for low and high current components
respectively, and gone as far as Class A/B solid state amps. Tubes, cable risers,
maple wood wall outlets will come when dementia sets in

Every time you use an average player that does a plethora of conversions you lose out in sound quality, on the other hand a receiver set up to do all sorts of corrections will also lose out.

BTW Kal Rubinson is an expert in this field and i am sure he will have a few corrections to add.
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post #9 of 39 Old 11-26-2011, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

IMHO to fully enjoy the benefits of SACD you need either:

1. Super good quality DSD decoding Sony or Marantz SACD player with 5.1 ANALOG outputs into a decent receiver or separates.

2. Oppo DV-980H cheapest DSD streaming player (i even got a spare)
with an DSD decoding receiver or separate. Big Onkyo/Integra fan here.

You also need equidistant cabling and speaker placement by Dolby standards:

Let me 'splain, by using cables of same length (or 10AWG Belden silver/gold terminated to make cable lenght irrelevant at sub-50ft) you
get to put your processor/receiver in PURE DIRECT mode and allow for
the 1 step DSD-analog conversion with absolutely no processing.

Lastly monoblock separates with balanced interconnects. I will also go as
far as to use isolated and balanced PSUs for low and high current components
respectively, and gone as far as Class A/B solid state amps. Tubes, cable risers,
maple wood wall outlets will come when dementia sets in

Every time you use an average player that does a plethora of conversions you lose out in sound quality, on the other hand a receiver set up to do all sorts of corrections will also lose out.

BTW Kal Rubinson is an expert in this field and i am sure he will have a few corrections to add.

Since you asked, I would recommend HDMI for this if at all possible. It and DSP in the processor eliminates many of the constraints you deal with in other more complex ways.

Kal Rubinson

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post #10 of 39 Old 11-26-2011, 03:46 PM
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The diagram in post #8 is part of ITU-R BS.775 standard; the Dolby recommendation is 22°-30° and 90°-110° for the front and surrounds respectively. It's not certain what standard is used (there are others) in the mixing studio of a particular release. Having five full range speakers in an ITU configuration is beyond the capability of the vast majority of people at home.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #11 of 39 Old 11-29-2011, 01:23 AM
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@bobpaule I too agree that in theory direct dsd to analog decoding is better, but there is some scientific evidence that in the highest frequency range it would be much better to operate a proper high quality conversion to 88 or 176 khz pcm. Moreover, I dont know how losing bass managment might affect sound quality, unless you have a pre/pro that does bass managment in the analog domain (or you are running through outlaw ICBM). I am sure you are aware of it
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post #12 of 39 Old 01-04-2012, 11:36 AM
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I just want to say "Thanks!" to everyone who contributed to this thread. I was recently in the same situation as gulo, the original poster. My ancient Sony DVD player is connected to my newish Sony receiver via coax, but will only play SACDs in 5.1 via 5.1 analog output, and the new receiver doesn't have 5.1 analog input. Ironically, my old receiver did have 5.1 analog inputs, but didn't support HDMI, and when I upgraded, I never thought I'd need the 5.1 analog inputs or I'd've gone one or two models up.

I picked up a Sony BDP-S480 for $90 at Best Buy, and it does indeed send SACD in 5.1 to the receiver via HDMI.
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post #13 of 39 Old 02-01-2012, 06:01 PM
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I bought a Sony BDP-S580 at BB and hooked it up to my Sony STR-DA5400ES. I listened to some SACD material via HDMI and DSD and was just as (if not more) impressed as the last SACD player I had running through my old Sony STR-DA777ES via 5.1 analog input.
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post #14 of 39 Old 02-01-2012, 06:57 PM
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I'm currently using a Pioneer Elite DV58va and SC-27 via hdmi and it's just fine to me. But my listening environment is just too noisey to get silly with this stuff (but I wish I could).

My two favorite DVD-A/SACD setups were an Elite 59txi and Dv59avi through i-Link and an H/K 7200 and OPPO 83se with an Audiocontrol Rialto all hooked up with analogs.

I also really like an H/K DVD-47 I had for both mc and two channel stereo through analog connection. Not sure why I liked it more than some other DVD players I've had, I just did. Unfortunately, it wouldn't play a couple of 24/192 stereo discs I have so it had to go!

I'm not knowlegable enough to argue the analog/hdmi/i-Link or Pure Direct vs. processed debates but it seems to me thay can all sound terrific with the right equipment. And of course, the right speakers.
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post #15 of 39 Old 02-01-2012, 07:19 PM
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I have the following:

Pioneer dv610av
Sony bdp s580
Oppo bdp93

They all sound the same thru hdmi. The beauty about the oppo is I can send video/audio through hdmi and sacd/DVD-a through either another hdmi or thru analog.. Or into my dac.
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post #16 of 39 Old 02-01-2012, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

The beauty about the oppo is I can send video/audio through hdmi and sacd/DVD-a through either another hdmi or thru analog.. Or into my dac.

How do you send SACD to an external DAC?

John

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post #17 of 39 Old 02-01-2012, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robert View Post

How do you send SACD to an external DAC?

John

You can't, i send it analog direct to the avr. I couldn't afford a bdp95. I have decent dacs in the Yamaha. Rebook cd's and bluray go through it however.
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post #18 of 39 Old 02-02-2012, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

I have the following:

Pioneer dv610av
Sony bdp s580
Oppo bdp93

They all sound the same thru hdmi. The beauty about the oppo is I can send video/audio through hdmi and sacd/DVD-a through either another hdmi or thru analog.. Or into my dac.

I have the Sony player(the S370 actually) and am thinking of adding the Pioneer for DVD-A. Since the Pio has analog 5.1 as does my AVR I am thinking of running it via analog.

Any thoughts on Pio via analog vs. Sony via HDMI? I don't have outboard DAC.
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post #19 of 39 Old 02-02-2012, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradman View Post

I have the Sony player(the S370 actually) and am thinking of adding the Pioneer for DVD-A. Since the Pio has analog 5.1 as does my AVR I am thinking of running it via analog.

Any thoughts on Pio via analog vs. Sony via HDMI? I don't have outboard DAC.

Well a dac does make a difference But my pioneer was only hooked up via hdmi,so Im unable to answer that.
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post #20 of 39 Old 02-02-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

You can't, i send it analog direct to the avr. I couldn't afford a bdp95. I have decent dacs in the Yamaha. Rebook cd's and bluray go through it however.

OK, how do you send lossless bluray to an external DAC? Not picking on you, trying to figure out the sames things for my own system...

John

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post #21 of 39 Old 02-02-2012, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robert View Post

OK, how do you send lossless bluray to an external DAC? Not picking on you, trying to figure out the sames things for my own system...

John

You could bitstream lossless blu-ray to an external dac if your player first decoded the DTS-MA or Dolby Tru-HD to pcm then sent it to a dac that would accept multichannel pcm and convert it to multichannel analog. ... but as someone who went to CES2012 can tell you... it ain't there.
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post #22 of 39 Old 02-02-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robert View Post

OK, how do you send lossless bluray to an external DAC? Not picking on you, trying to figure out the sames things for my own system...

John

It's connected via optical into the dac, which downstreams it to 2.0. The dac is capable of 24bit/192kHz. I have a very nice setup for 2.0 headphone listening and use bluray for the source in this manner.

External Dacs aren't capable of multichannel unless its onboard. I'm lucky because the Yamaha 3010 has some nice burr browns onboard to handle multichannel. This is why on my system, between all 3 players, I don't hear the oppo sounding any better or worse than the Sony or pioneer. Analog however, you can definitely tell the oppo is the best player for the money for analog music. If I didn't already own the bdp93, I would have a 95 and not even have to worry about the quality of the internal dacs on the avr.

The pioneer has only been hooked via coaxial and hdmi. I wouldn't expect it to be mind blowing and doubt it sounds better then the oppo93. There's some good reviews out there that break down the multichannel analog of the 93 and it's nothing short of impressive. Since you do not have a dac, I recommend a oppo bdp95.

Hopefully we will have multichannel external dacs available in the future that work as intended and aren't $1500, but I'm not holding my breath. This will make it easier to pipe my sources in for more listening options.
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post #23 of 39 Old 02-02-2012, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlknez View Post

You could bitstream lossless blu-ray to an external dac if your player first decoded the DTS-MA or Dolby Tru-HD to pcm then sent it to a dac that would accept multichannel pcm and convert it to multichannel analog. ... but as someone who went to CES2012 can tell you... it ain't there.

Correct
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post #24 of 39 Old 02-02-2012, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

It's connected via optical into the dac, which downstreams it to 2.0. The dac is capable of 24bit/192kHz. I have a very nice setup for 2.0 headphone listening and use bluray for the source in this manner.

As I understand it, you're giving up lossless when you go to optical. Does that matter to you and do you hear a difference?

John

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post #25 of 39 Old 02-02-2012, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robert View Post

As I understand it, you're giving up lossless when you go to optical. Does that matter to you and do you hear a difference?

John

I can't hear that the original lossless was sacrificed. I feel it sounds much warmer through my DAC and that's how i like it. Its not like the DAC im using is a pos.

Lots of people are obsessed about lossless yet honestly wouldn't notice if heard through a proper setup.
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post #26 of 39 Old 02-03-2012, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

It's connected via optical into the dac, which downstreams it to 2.0. The dac is capable of 24bit/192kHz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

I can't hear that the original lossless was sacrificed. I feel it sounds much warmer through my DAC and that's how i like it. Its not like the DAC im using is a pos.

Lots of people are obsessed about lossless yet honestly wouldn't notice if heard through a proper setup.

It's a moot point because SPDIF can carry 2CH downmixed PCM from BDP.

As for external MCH DAC, it can't do bass management so it isn't suitable for most people.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #27 of 39 Old 02-03-2012, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post


It's a moot point because SPDIF can carry 2CH downmixed PCM from BDP.

As for external MCH DAC, it can't do bass management so it isn't suitable for most people.

So would it be better to use hdmi compared to spdif?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #28 of 39 Old 02-03-2012, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

So would it be better to use hdmi compared to spdif?

Isn't it OBVIOUS?

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post #29 of 39 Old 02-03-2012, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenyatto View Post

Isn't it OBVIOUS?

I forgot to add is it audible? Or tough to tell the difference between the two?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #30 of 39 Old 02-03-2012, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I forgot to add is it audible? Or tough to tell the difference between the two?

F for your pathetic Comedy Central audition:
Keep your day job

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