Decoding HD-DTS and D TrueHD - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 67 Old 03-16-2012, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

For others wondering what VLC is, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLC_media_player

With the footnote that I've not read it.

The limitations I wrote about are applied to their conversion tool. I don't think VLC downsamples the audio when you play a Blu-ray. I don't use it as my player, because I use Media Player Classic - Home Cinema and Windows 7 Media Center. However, the latest version of VLC supports playing back Blu-rays and after just playing around with it, it seems pretty good.

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post #62 of 67 Old 03-23-2012, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Apart from the PS3, no standalone BDPs that I know can decode dts-HD MA 5.1 24/192 fully to PCM 5.1 24/192, but can only downsample to 24/96.

That does not surprise me as "dts-HD MA 5.1" was created for blu-ray movies and blu-ray audio discs. At least AFAIK.

But I've some related questions, and hopefully you'll be able to provide useful input on them.

Yesterday I tried searching through the current long OPPO threads in the AVS blu-ray player forum on their current 93 player and also their long 95 thread for info on playback of .flac files, especially hi-rez .flac files via input thru USB 2.0 connector or even ethernet cable to one's PC.

It only raised more questions than answers.

Same appears to also be an open question for the soon to be released 2012 Panasonic DMP-BDT 500 blu-ray player which is a bit less expensive than the OPPO 93.

For example:

1. Can any of these 3 players actually play a 24/96 .flac *stereo* file (let alone the bigger 5.1 file) via the input USB 2.0 connector?

2. Meaning does the overall bit rate needed for 24/96 stereo .flac playback exceed the limit of USB 2.0?

3. Or is it another blu-ray "copy protection type of thing" where if the player does play the file, does it "re-do" it to something like 24/48 on the fly?

Meaning that the more I learn about recent goings on with blu-ray the less I trust them. A week ago I got a blu-ray movie rental disc from Redbox and the disc tied up my blu-ray player for more than 15 minutes showing recent movie trailers.

The best is the enemy of the good. Voltaire (1694-1778)

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post #63 of 67 Old 03-23-2012, 09:51 AM
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Decoding of DTS-MA is limited to 96Hz sample rates by specifications required by DTS for the standard "DTS Essential" decoders. This has nothing to do with any specific player, if it has that license/certification it's limited. Virtually all BD players have the same certification. Obviously when bitstreaming from a player, this decoding limitation is not a factor.

Playback of high res audio files of ANY codec is unrelated. There are no limitations in the Oppo players, any FLAC or WAV file can be up to 5.1 and 192KHz sample rate. Bandwidth available on USB or Ethernet is not a factor or limitation (unless your network is severely limited).
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post #64 of 67 Old 03-23-2012, 05:04 PM
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I keep an open mind about the dts-HD MA MCH 24/192 decoding issue. Obviously as I pointed out, the PS3 can decode it fully and BD audio discs can be authored that way. It destroys the claim by dts that the decoded sample is bit-for-bit identical to the source, a claim which appears repeatedly in the dts HD whitepaper and online. But, in the same paper, it never explicitly mentions dts-HD MA can support 5.1 24/192, nor the difference in dts decoders. It leaves you wondering about the truth or completeness of all the marketing material. They want to tell you the format is bit-for-bit identical to the source but doesn't warn you that a subset of decoder can't achieve that (if that's true).

Another thing I've always been puzzling is, since dts HD is based on core + extension, and I'm not sure if core supports 192kHz sample rate in the first place.

When you bitstream what happens in the AVR is usually unknown unless the AVR tells you and that info is reliable. Does AVR downsample? Apparently many earlier AVRs do not even accept or process PCM 24/192 let alone decode and process it. I recently got an AVR which seems to be able to decode fully to MCH 24/192 PCM (from the info screen) and I no longer have to be bothered by the player's capability.

Dolby does not have this decoding limitation and to me it just makes sense to use Dolby for 24/192 BD audio discs and this is what I suggested to Morten Lindberg. His response was to wait for an Oppo fix. Right, lets wait. I don't even have an Oppo. I suppose some people are attached to dts.

Since 24/192 source is so rare it's not a concern for the vast majority of people and the cause is not helped by a vocal few who are against using 192kHz sample rate. I am not really bothered about whether it's 96kHz or 192kHz but rather more by the dts claim.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #65 of 67 Old 03-23-2012, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

I keep an open mind about the dts-HD MA MCH 24/192 decoding issue. Obviously as I pointed out, the PS3 can decode it fully and BD audio discs can be authored that way. It destroys the claim by dts that the decoded sample is bit-for-bit identical to the source, a claim which appears repeatedly in the dts HD whitepaper and online. But, in the same paper, it never explicitly mentions dts-HD MA can support 5.1 24/192, nor the difference in dts decoders. It leaves you wondering about the truth or completeness of all the marketing material. They want to tell you the format is bit-for-bit identical to the source but doesn't warn you that a subset of decoder can't achieve that (if that's true).

1st a thank you to you and rdgrimes for your useful responses and comments in this thread, and the past 2 months in this AVS forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Another thing I've always been puzzling is, since dts HD is based on core + extension, and I'm not sure if core supports 192kHz sample rate in the first place.

When you bitstream what happens in the AVR is usually unknown unless the AVR tells you and that info is reliable. Does AVR downsample? Apparently many earlier AVRs do not even accept or process PCM 24/192 let alone decode and process it. I recently got an AVR which seems to be able to decode fully to MCH 24/192 PCM (from the info screen) and I no longer have to be bothered by the player's capability.

Dolby does not have this decoding limitation and to me it just makes sense to use Dolby for 24/192 BD audio discs and this is what I suggested to Morten Lindberg. His response was to wait for an Oppo fix. Right, lets wait. I don't even have an Oppo. I suppose some people are attached to dts.

Since 24/192 source is so rare it's not a concern for the vast majority of people and the cause is not helped by a vocal few who are against using 192kHz sample rate. I am not really bothered about whether it's 96kHz or 192kHz but rather more by the dts claim.

24/192 audio files are BIG even with only stereo, 24/192 5.1 audio files are even BIGGER!!

When I run across some free high quality audio downloads of 24/192 audio files, then and only then will I save it for future comparison to 24/96 downloads that I'll likely soon start to pay for. Maybe 2L had a bit of that? I'll have to go back and check that.

Back to my post that you responded to, do you think that current OPPO93/95 and Panasonic500 blu-ray players can actually play a 24/96 .flac *stereo* file (let alone the bigger 5.1 file) via the input USB 2.0 connector?

Clearly rdgrimes thinks the answer is yes that both can be played via USB 2.0 input (memory stick or external USB HDD), even the bigger 5.1 hi-rez file, which is still higher overall bit-rate.

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post #66 of 67 Old 03-23-2012, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Back to my post that you responded to, do you think that current OPPO93/95 and Panasonic500 blu-ray players can actually play a 24/96 .flac *stereo* file (let alone the bigger 5.1 file) via the input USB 2.0 connector?

Clearly rdgrimes thinks the answer is yes that both can be played via USB 2.0 input (memory stick or external USB HDD), even the bigger 5.1 hi-rez file, which is still higher overall bit-rate.

The answer is that I do it all the time. USB-2 has available bandwidth for sustained transfers that's many times greater than any requirements for high res audio, and several times greater than what's available from a BD disc. And in the case of compressed audio, (ie:FLAC), the requirement is considerably less than uncompressed (PCM, WAV). It's a non-issue.
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post #67 of 67 Old 03-24-2012, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

1st a thank you to you and rdgrimes for your useful responses and comments in this thread, and the past 2 months in this AVS forum.

You're very welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

When I run across some free high quality audio downloads of 24/192 audio files, then and only then will I save it for future comparison to 24/96 downloads that I'll likely soon start to pay for. Maybe 2L had a bit of that? I'll have to go back and check that.

2L has various formats for trial. Paid for HD downloads that I've seen are in flac (one studio is offering dsf or dsdiff - DSD formats) but a 2CH track can cost more than a whole 2CH/MCH hybrid SACD so it's not something I will pay for. Just last night I downloaded two free dsf files for trying in my Sony SACD player - don't think Oppo can play those. So for now, experimentation only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Back to my post that you responded to, do you think that current OPPO93/95 and Panasonic500 blu-ray players can actually play a 24/96 .flac *stereo* file (let alone the bigger 5.1 file) via the input USB 2.0 connector?

I have no experience with flac or these players. USB 2.0 speed is theoretically 480Mbps, a 2CH 24/96 PCM is 4.6Mbps.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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