SACD & DVD-A with a Toslink Cable? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Before I buy the cable, I wanted to know if SACD and DVD-A (Multi Channel 5.1 audio) go thru a Toslink cable? My plan was to run a toslink from the Denon 3930 dvd player to the receiver.



If a toslink cable will work, what are the sound quality differences when compared to the multi channel cables (5 rca cables)?
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post #2 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 09:08 AM
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TOSlink will not work for these. Analog or HDMI only.

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post #3 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 09:23 AM
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If you have a Denon receiver you could use "Denon Link".
If your receiver is not a Denon, use either HDMI or go the analog cable route.
Currently I am using my Denon 3930CI via "Denon Link" to my Denon receiver.
I have used it in the past with analog cables on an older receiver and it sounded great.
If your receiver is not HDMI capable and not a Denon, analog is pretty much your only option for Hi - Res playback.
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post #4 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJHXBR View Post

If you have a Denon receiver you could use "Denon Link".
If your receiver is not a Denon, use either HDMI or go the analog cable route.
Currently I am using my Denon 3930CI via "Denon Link" to my Denon receiver.
I have used it in the past with analog cables on an older receiver and it sounded great.
If your receiver is not HDMI capable and not a Denon, analog is pretty much your only option for Hi - Res playback.

I only get two channel audio with HDMI cable, not 5.1 . Remember, we are talking only about SACD and DVD-A only. DVD movies come in 5.1 with HDMI cable just fine.

DVD player: Denon 3930ci (SACD & DVD-A compatable)
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC-37
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post #5 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

TOSlink will not work for these. Analog or HDMI only.

I only get 2.0 channel audio via HDMI, not 5.1 when attempting to play SACD and DVD-A . I get 5.1 audio just fine when playing dvd movies.

DVD Player: Denon 3930ci ( SACD & DVD-A compatable)
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC-37
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post #6 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 10:12 AM
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Thats because that player will not pass a 5.1 DVD-A/SACD signal thru HDMI.

What does the manual say?
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post #7 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

Thats because that player will not pass a 5.1 DVD-A/SACD signal thru HDMI.

What does the manual say?

might be time to upgrade to something that plays SACD and DVD-A via HDMI, something like the Pioneer Elite Blu-ray line.
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post #8 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKSinAZ View Post

might be time to upgrade to something that plays SACD and DVD-A via HDMI, something like the Pioneer Elite Blu-ray line.

I would suggest Oppo as well.

Bill

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post #9 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKSinAZ View Post

might be time to upgrade to something that plays SACD and DVD-A via HDMI, something like the Pioneer Elite Blu-ray line.

Neither "ripping" nor playing of 5.1 sound from SACD discs via HDMI cable does not exist in any convenient way.

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post #10 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKSinAZ View Post

might be time to upgrade to something that plays SACD and DVD-A via HDMI, something like the Pioneer Elite Blu-ray line.

You might want to also consider the Oppo BDP-93 player as well.
I am using the Oppo 93 via HDMI for Blu-ray, SACD, DVD-A, HDAD, DTS, and any other disc I own. It has played everything I own so far.
Very pleased with this player.

I have never tried using HDMI with my Denon 3930 player.
It might not play DVD-A or SACD via HDMI.
Need to check the owners manual.
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post #11 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Neither "ripping" nor playing of 5.1 sound from SACD discs via HDMI cable does not exist in any convenient way.

??

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post #12 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

??

My thoughts exactly. ??. Unless he is referring to older HDMI implementations which didn't pass MCH via HDMI, but I believe that ended with the release of the 1.2 standard.

I did have a Pio BDP-95 which was HDMI 1.1 and could not pass MCH, but my Oppo 93 does so without issue.
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post #13 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKSinAZ View Post

I only get 2.0 channel audio via HDMI, not 5.1 when attempting to play SACD and DVD-A . I get 5.1 audio just fine when playing dvd movies.

DVD Player: Denon 3930ci ( SACD & DVD-A compatable)
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC-37

Just checked and the problem is : The Denon 3930 is HDMI 1.1
That means NO SACD or DVD-A via HDMI.
You need HDMI 1.2 or higher.
Time to upgrade or get out the analog cables.
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post #14 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJHXBR View Post

Just checked and the problem is : The Denon 3930 is HDMI 1.1
That means NO SACD or DVD-A via HDMI.
You need HDMI 1.2 or higher.
Time to upgrade or get out the analog cables.

I do have analog cables, but the front left input (analog) on reciever does not work for some reason. I verified that the front left output (analog on DVD player) is working.

So I ether have to get the recevier fixed or upgrade player to avoid using analog. I wish I knew how to fix this myself.
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post #15 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJHXBR View Post

Just checked and the problem is : The Denon 3930 is HDMI 1.1
That means NO SACD or DVD-A via HDMI.
You need HDMI 1.2 or higher.
Time to upgrade or get out the analog cables.

This player outputs SACD only via the proprietary DenonLink3 connection which requires a compatible DL3 receiver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BKSinAZ View Post

I do have analog cables, but the front left input (analog) on reciever does not work for some reason. I verified that the front left output (analog on DVD player) is working.

So I ether have to get the recevier fixed or upgrade player to avoid using analog. I wish I knew how to fix this myself.

I suggest both. Oppo BDP-93 is my suggestion.

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post #16 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Neither "ripping" nor playing of 5.1 sound from SACD discs via HDMI cable does not exist in any convenient way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

??

The key word in my statement is "convenient"

e.g. in order to play 5.1 sound from SACD discs via HDMI cable you'd need to at least have an AVR that can take DSD input via the HDMI cable. Then too what does one need on the player end?

The OP's OP seemed simple enough, and he stated his receiver as Pioneer Elite SC-37, but I've no clue as to what that AVR is capable of.

Somewhat related is this recent 7 page web writeup at: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5693/c...elfdestruction

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post #17 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 01:05 PM
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That player should be able to pass DVD-A as MCH PCM but not bitstream. As pointed out, though, SACD is a no-go.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #18 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

The key word in my statement is "convenient"

I would say it's more convenient to plug in a single HDMI cable than multiple analog cables.

Quote:


e.g. in order to play 5.1 sound from SACD discs via HDMI cable you'd need to at least have an AVR that can take DSD input via the HDMI cable.

No, it just has to output multichannel sound via HDMI. That could also be LPCM.
Quote:


Then too what does one need on the player end?

A player that outputs multchannel LPCM or DSD via HDMI. They aren't that hard to find.

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post #19 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

The OP's OP seemed simple enough, and he stated his receiver as Pioneer Elite SC-37, but I've no clue as to what that AVR is capable of.

The Pioneer Elite SC-37 supports multichannel PCM audio over HDMI (which could be from a DVD-Audio source, or from a SACD source converted to PCM), and also supports multichannel SACD audio in DSD format over HDMI. These capabilities are described in the owner's manual (which I looked up online).

Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherSongs View Post

Then too what does one need on the player end?

To work with the Pioneer SC-37 as the OP wants, a player is needed that can play both DVD-Audio and SACD disks, can send DVD-Audio content as multichannel PCM over HDMI, and can send SACD content as DSD or multichannel PCM (at least one of those two) over HDMI.

As others have pointed out, any Oppo blu-ray player can do all that, including the choice of sending SACD content as either DSD or multichannel PCM. However, if the OP doesn't need a blu-ray player (maybe OP already has one), another player I would suggest is the Pioneer DV-610AV, which costs about $100 and is currently available from Amazon and other on-line vendors. This player offers full DVD-Audio and SACD over HDMI capabilities, like the Oppo players.

The DV-610AV is officially a European model, but the ones sold in the US have multi-region capability (for DVD movies). I believe the Pioneer Elite DV-49AV, which was discontinued several years ago, is the US equivalent model to the DV-610AV.
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post #20 of 32 Old 03-25-2012, 02:42 PM
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To address another question ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BKSinAZ View Post

What are the sound quality differences [for HDMI connection between player and Pioneer SC-37] when compared to the multi channel cables (5 rca cables)?

My answer is in terms of the differences in audio signal processing for HDMI vs multichannel analog connection. ("Sound quality" is something you would need to judge for yourself. You could do a comparison if you got a new player with full DVD-A and SACD over HDMI capability, and multichannel analog outputs, and also got your receiver repaired so the analog inputs are fully working.)

When using HDMI inputs to the SC-37, you can make full use of the auto speaker setup and acoustic correction functions of the SC-37, which Pioneer calls auto MCACC. There is a big thread on the Pioneer MCACC system here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post15639976

When using multichannel analog inputs to the SC-37, probably all digital processing in the receiver, including the MCACC, is bypassed; most receivers with multichannel analog inputs work this way. So you would need to use the manual speaker setup functions (cross-over frequency, level, time alignment) in the Denon 3930 player, which are limited compared to the MCACC system in the receiver. However, the Denon 3930 has better speaker setup features, such as choice of cross-over frequencies, than found in most DVD players.
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post #21 of 32 Old 05-09-2012, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

TOSlink will not work for these. Analog or HDMI only.

Just the OP's equipment or does TOSlink never work for DVD-A?

I have an old Panasonic F85 DVD player that plays DVD-A. I'm trying to hook up to a Denon 2112ci, but it doesn't seem to picking up a Multichannel signal over TOSlink and I've tried setting the player's output to both Bitstream and PCM.
http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchf...133DVDF85S.PDF

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post #22 of 32 Old 05-09-2012, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BullishDad View Post

Just the OP's equipment or does TOSlink never work for DVD-A?

On some players but stereo only.

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post #23 of 32 Old 05-09-2012, 07:46 PM
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Thanks, Kal. I never knew this was a limitation of TOSlink. I don't have many DVD-A disks, but I was hoping they'd sound great with the new AVR. Turns out I never heard them in their full surround glory because my old receiver was hooked up with TOSlink too.

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post #24 of 32 Old 05-10-2012, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

On some players but stereo only.

Ok guys be nice as I am a novice. I had read above many times before and had assumed it meant, stereo only in DVD-A quality and what I was listening to was CD quality. Is that correct?

The background is, I own two DVD-A's, "Beatles - Love" & "Tommy". I play them on a Sony S550 BR player and a old Sony S560D DVD player, both via TOSlink. On either player I can listen to "Love" in DTS or DD or stereo and "Tommy" my choices are DD or stereo.
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post #25 of 32 Old 05-10-2012, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HFXguy View Post

Ok guys be nice as I am a novice. I had read above many times before and had assumed it meant, stereo only in DVD-A quality and what I was listening to was CD quality. Is that correct?

The background is, I own two DVD-A's, "Beatles - Love" & "Tommy". I play them on a Sony S550 BR player and a old Sony S560D DVD player, both via TOSlink. On either player I can listen to "Love" in DTS or DD or stereo and "Tommy" my choices are DD or stereo.

No Sony player can play DVD-A. You are getting lossy DD or CD-quality stereo.

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post #26 of 32 Old 05-10-2012, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HFXguy View Post


Ok guys be nice as I am a novice. I had read above many times before and had assumed it meant, stereo only in DVD-A quality and what I was listening to was CD quality. Is that correct?

The background is, I own two DVD-A's, "Beatles - Love" & "Tommy". I play them on a Sony S550 BR player and a old Sony S560D DVD player, both via TOSlink. On either player I can listen to "Love" in DTS or DD or stereo and "Tommy" my choices are DD or stereo.

A DVD Audio disc will have a DVD Video section that generally includes lossy DD 5.1 or DTS for surround sound. When you play a DVD A disc in a standard DVD player, you hear the sound from the DVD Video portion of the disc. That's what you are hearing on your Sony player.
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post #27 of 32 Old 05-11-2012, 05:24 PM
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DVD-A can carry stereo PCM higher than CD quality in the DVD-V layer, generally up to 24/48. Even with the right players playing DVD-A you aren't going to get high res (above 48kHz) via SPDIF/Toslink: any protected content above 96kHz is downsampled. This generally applies to DVD-A/DVD-V/SACD/Blu-ray discs. So forget SPDIF/Toslink if you want high res from commercial discs.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

DVD-A can carry stereo PCM higher than CD quality in the DVD-V layer, generally up to 24/48. Even with the right players playing DVD-A you aren't going to get high res (above 48kHz) via SPDIF/Toslink: any protected content above 96kHz is downsampled. This generally applies to DVD-A/DVD-V/SACD/Blu-ray discs. So forget SPDIF/Toslink if you want high res from commercial discs.

My commercial DVD-A titles say this:
This disc plays 3 ways:
Advanced Resolution Surround
Advanced Resolution Stereo
DVD-Video Compatible Dolby Digital

My connection choices for the DVD-A player are Toslink or L/R Analog.
In your opinion, what would be the best listening mode and what connections?

I have a Denon 2112ci AVR, a Panasonic F85 DVD player, and a PS3. Maybe the PS3 on the DVD-V layer is best?

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post #29 of 32 Old 05-11-2012, 08:43 PM
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If you want multichannel output, your only choice with those players is the lossy 5.1 track on the DVD layer. Neither can do anything with the DVD Audio portion.

Some DVD Audio discs also have stereo PCM options with higher sampling rates and bit depths than CDs. Personally, i generally prefer those PCM tracks over the lossy 5.1 versions and often apply PLII to stereo sources. But, that's just a personal preference and sometimes the lossy 5.1 tracks sound better to me. It really depends on the disc.

If you want DD 5.1, you have to use optical. With stereo PCM, you can use either type of connection.
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post #30 of 32 Old 05-12-2012, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BullishDad View Post

My connection choices for the DVD-A player are Toslink or L/R Analog.
In your opinion, what would be the best listening mode and what connections?

On p.21 of the manual it does confirm copy-protected signals are 'converted' to 44.1kHz or 48kHz from digital output. There are various ways to play the disc and I prefer (1) followed by (2). No method is ideal since player doesn't have HDMI and AVR doesn't have MCH in.

1. Using 2Ch analogue is the only way to have higher resolution albeit only stereo.
2. Using Toslink is the only way to have MCH mix albeit only in lossy DD and there shouldn't be any difference between players with digital output.
3. Using Toslink to output downsampled PCM and play as stereo with receiver rather than player doing DAC: may or may not sound better to you than (1).
4. Using Toslink to output downsampled PCM and apply surround mode in receiver.
If receiver does room correction then it depends ... You decide. Upgrade the player and life is so much easier!

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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