ELP in 5.1- 1st 2 albums in July in UK - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 02:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I posted this in a thread and someone suggested it have its own thread, so here goes again...

Haven't seen this anywhere on this site, but got the info here:

http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...n-5-1-Surround

ELP is getting their 1st 6 albums re-mastered and w/ 5.1 as well, according to their website. The 1st two, ELP and Tarkus are up for pre-order at amazon.uk:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Emerson-Lake...g=bluraycom-21

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tarkus-Lake-...g=bluraycom-21

3 disc sets:
1: CD with original mix in most recent remastered form /
2: CD with new stereo mix of the album and unreleased pieces and alternate takes found on the tapes /
3: DVD with 5.1 mix and all the stereo material.

And who's doing the mixes? None other than Mr. Wilson himself! Very much looking forward to this, esp. Tarkus and Pictures at an Exhibition (already have BSS dvd-a, of course).

No news on 5.1 codec, but since this is a Sony project (ELP recently sold catalog rights to them), everyone is assuming no dvd-a or sacd; best we can hope for is DTS 24/96, apparently. To me, the quality of the mix is much more important than the codec, even if its lossy. Since the fabulous SW is doing the mix, these should be tasty indeed!
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post #2 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 04:53 AM
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Sweet!

Been waiting for a Tarkus remaster, and one executed by Steve Wilson is going to be superb.

Pre-ordering now.
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post #3 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Sweet!

Been waiting for a Tarkus remaster, and one executed by Steve Wilson is going to be superb.

Pre-ordering now.

It's been remastered (at least) once already. I'll be buying this one, too. An all-time favorite for me.

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post #4 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 08:12 AM
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Yes, good idea to make this its own thread. I forgot about your post about this upcoming release in the _____ thread.

I bought the first ELP on vinyl way back but lost it, so I felt the need to include it in my CD collection. It's been in my Amazon cart forever; was about to pull the trigger but glad to see this is going to happen. ELP screams hi-rez, mch reproduction.

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post #5 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 11:26 AM
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I wish they'd issue "Welcome Back My Friends" in multi-channel--the LPs were quad as I recall.

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post #6 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bwv1080 View Post

I wish they'd issue "Welcome Back My Friends" in multi-channel--the LPs were quad as I recall.

They did. It's in track 5 of the BSS DVD-A.

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post #7 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 05:22 PM
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This is great news since I love my BSS on DVD-A.

I also have Return of the Manticore and the Dolby Pro Logic on Pictures is pretty good also.

I see a lot of discussion on how the multi channel is going to be authored (DVD-A), unlikely but really desirable, SACD (slightly more likely but then not backwards compatible 5.1 wise with those with only CD players), BD (really unlikely it seems) and most likely DVD-V (with either DTS or DDD 5.1 audio).

While I would love a lossless format (don't care if it's DVD-A or SACD or even TrueHD on a BD), I could cope with a DVD-V with DD audio at say 640kbs but I am not sure that's in the standard.

Folks are also talking about PCM 5.1 on a DVD. That would be very acceptable also.
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post #8 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwv1080 View Post

I wish they'd issue "Welcome Back My Friends" in multi-channel--the LPs were quad as I recall.

There was talk of this over on the qq board where I found this release info (also a nice q & a w/ SW). There was mention of some problems with the master, or maybe the multi-tracks, but I can't remember the details... Anyway, the gist was that it was thought a release of WBmF in surround was unlikely.
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post #9 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

They did. It's in track 5 of the BSS DVD-A.

Very funny.
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post #10 of 195 Old 04-21-2012, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

This is great news since I love my BSS on DVD-A.

I also have Return of the Manticore and the Dolby Pro Logic on Pictures is pretty good also.

I see a lot of discussion on how the multi channel is going to be authored (DVD-A), unlikely but really desirable, SACD (slightly more likely but then not backwards compatible 5.1 wise with those with only CD players), BD (really unlikely it seems) and most likely DVD-V (with either DTS or DDD 5.1 audio).

While I would love a lossless format (don't care if it's DVD-A or SACD or even TrueHD on a BD), I could cope with a DVD-V with DD audio at say 640kbs but I am not sure that's in the standard.

Folks are also talking about PCM 5.1 on a DVD. That would be very acceptable also.

SW answered a question in the q & a at qq re: br; he said it was much more expensive to do and so would not be done that way. We already know they will be CD/DVD sets, the question remains as to what codec- hard to imagine Sony letting them be released in dvd-a. So I thought DTS was the best we could hope for.

I didn't think you could do 5.1 PCM on a dvd- not enough room. That's why MLP was created- correct?
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post #11 of 195 Old 04-23-2012, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

SW answered a question in the q & a at qq re: br; he said it was much more expensive to do and so would not be done that way. We already know they will be CD/DVD sets, the question remains as to what codec- hard to imagine Sony letting them be released in dvd-a. So I thought DTS was the best we could hope for.

I didn't think you could do 5.1 PCM on a dvd- not enough room. That's why MLP was created- correct?

No idea if PCM 5.1 can be authored to DVD-V. I was just echoing a comment earlier in the thread.

I don't understand why DVD-A would be expensive to author. There are freeware tools out that do that and create an iso you can burn. But they don't do MLP and one would assume that a DVD-A would have to have MLP and the encryption to deter pirating.

But point taken about Sony being reluctant to use DVD-A. I guess the other option that would be acceptable to Sony would be SACD but that format does not provide a compatibility 5.1 layer as DVD-A does.

If they want the greatest audience for the titles, they are probably going to want to provide 5.1 audio to the most folks. That means DVD-V alas (with DD or DTS).

Oh well, I can continue to enjoy my BSS DVD-A.
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post #12 of 195 Old 04-23-2012, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

No idea if PCM 5.1 can be authored to DVD-V. I was just echoing a comment earlier in the thread.

I don't understand why DVD-A would be expensive to author. There are freeware tools out that do that and create an iso you can burn. But they don't do MLP and one would assume that a DVD-A would have to have MLP and the encryption to deter pirating.

But point taken about Sony being reluctant to use DVD-A. I guess the other option that would be acceptable to Sony would be SACD but that format does not provide a compatibility 5.1 layer as DVD-A does.

If they want the greatest audience for the titles, they are probably going to want to provide 5.1 audio to the most folks. That means DVD-V alas (with DD or DTS).

Oh well, I can continue to enjoy my BSS DVD-A.

I think I had too many acronyms for my post to be clear- SW said that making blu-rays would be too expensive.

I think it's just as unlikely that Sony would allow sacd as dvd-a; they have completely turned their back on their own creation. I think that failure is a real sore spot for them. It is only recently that they have added sacd playback to some of their BR players- and they dropped that feature from the PS3. (I bought one before I knew it had been dropped, but got it mainly as a BR player).

As for dd/dts vs. lossless 5.1, I'm not convinced many (if any) could tell the difference in blind tests. Supposedly as the # of channels increase, the significance of resolution/sq decreases. I doubt if these old ears on my much-less-than-high-end system could tell a difference. I know the sound of my Genesis box-set in dts 24/96 is amazing- to me. I have seen some complaints about them and people seeking the sacd's over the dvd's. But some people focus on numbers and what we hear is very much influenced by our pre-conceptions.
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post #13 of 195 Old 04-23-2012, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

I didn't think you could do 5.1 PCM on a dvd- not enough room. That's why MLP was created- correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

No idea if PCM 5.1 can be authored to DVD-V. I was just echoing a comment earlier in the thread.

Indeed, DVD-V doesn't have the audio-dedicated throughput to allow PCM5.1. And as mentioned, that is why MLP was created, and the DVD-A format was created to handle MLP.

DTS 5.1 96/24 would be a nice compromise, if BD, SACD and DVD-A are out of the question.

Interesting that SW noted that BD 5.1 is "too expensive", yet that is what he uses for his own releases (Grace For Drowning, for example, is available on a regular non-collector's edition BD for around US$18).

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post #14 of 195 Old 04-23-2012, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post

Indeed, DVD-V doesn't have the audio-dedicated throughput to allow PCM5.1. And as mentioned, that is why MLP was created, and the DVD-A format was created to handle MLP.

DTS 5.1 96/24 would be a nice compromise, if BD, SACD and DVD-A are out of the question.

Interesting that SW noted that BD 5.1 is "too expensive", yet that is what he uses for his own releases (Grace For Drowning, for example, is available on a regular non-collector's edition BD for around US$18).

shinksma

That is interesting- hadn't thought of that. Wonder what the difference is? Too bad he won't be coming back to qq for another q&a to ask him that.
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post #15 of 195 Old 04-23-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

That is interesting- hadn't thought of that. Wonder what the difference is? Too bad he won't be coming back to qq for another q&a to ask him that.

Perhaps it's the mastering process that is expensive? I had heard anecdotally that the reason there are more DTS HD MA titles out there versus Dolby TrueHD ones on movies is the DTS tools are cheaper to purchase and use?

One doesn't see many BD audio titles around and they appear to be mostly classical titles from what I could see on Amazon.
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post #16 of 195 Old 04-24-2012, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post

Indeed, DVD-V doesn't have the audio-dedicated throughput to allow PCM5.1. And as mentioned, that is why MLP was created, and the DVD-A format was created to handle MLP.

The DVD-V spec allows up to 6.144 Mbps for PCM, which could be 7.1 x 48/16. But I have never seen a player that could understand more than 2 channels of PCM. Just never caught on.

Quote:
Interesting that SW noted that BD 5.1 is "too expensive", yet that is what he uses for his own releases (Grace For Drowning, for example, is available on a regular non-collector's edition BD for around US$18).

The discs are expensive to replicate compared to DVD, and the total available market is much smaller, limiting sales potential. Double whammy. Yet that doesn't stop 2L!

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post #17 of 195 Old 04-24-2012, 03:25 AM
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any advice on when Works 1 and Works 2 are coming out?
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post #18 of 195 Old 04-24-2012, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The DVD-V spec allows up to 6.144 Mbps for PCM, which could be 7.1 x 48/16. But I have never seen a player that could understand more than 2 channels of PCM. Just never caught on.

..

Didn't know that. Presumably it could be done over S/PDIF because things like HDMI and encryption might not have been in the picture when the DVD-V spec was designed.

I have a number of concert/music titles with PCM audio. They are not that great quality and perhaps it's because the manufacturer was too cheap to shell out on decent encoding hardware/software tools? Plus they only are 2 channel as you say.
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post #19 of 195 Old 04-24-2012, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lchiu7 View Post

Didn't know that. Presumably it could be done over S/PDIF because things like HDMI and encryption might not have been in the picture when the DVD-V spec was designed.

It would not work over S/PDIF as at 48 kHz it is limited to 1.5 Mbps. It would have been analog only, and that was not interesting to folks who wanted digital connections, and it was no interesting to people who wanted lower cost DVD players, which have only 2-ch DACs. All these factors helped discourage any use of the M-ch PCM feature.

Quote:


I have a number of concert/music titles with PCM audio. They are not that great quality and perhaps it's because the manufacturer was too cheap to shell out on decent encoding hardware/software tools? Plus they only are 2 channel as you say.

Perhaps the master were only 2-ch. It was not expensive or difficult to use DD 5.1 if they had the source.

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post #20 of 195 Old 04-24-2012, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

It would not work over S/PDIF as at 48 kHz it is limited to 1.5 Mbps. It would have been analog only, and that was not interesting to folks who wanted digital connections, and it was no interesting to people who wanted lower cost DVD players, which have only 2-ch DACs. All these factors helped discourage any use of the M-ch PCM feature.

I see. That makes sense. The disc can store the information and it can come off the disc at that rate but it cannot be transported over digital at that rate so it's decoded in the player. I can see why folks who would be interested in high end audio might object to that.

But as an aside my first SACD/DVD-A player output 6 channel analogue audio and it still sounded outstanding to me.

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Perhaps the master were only 2-ch. It was not expensive or difficult to use DD 5.1 if they had the source.

Probably true. They are primarily music videos which for the vintage, would not have been recorded in 5.1.

Getting back On Topic I have the Return of the Manticore set which is mostly a compilation.

But there is the remixed Dolby Surround version of Pictures on one disc.

Presumably to mix a Dolby Surround version they would have had to go back to the original multitrack masters since I can't believe they would have gone back to the two track masters and just created the sound mix using something like DPL II Music (or did they?)

There is precious little information on the disc or in the cover notes to say how it was done except an acknowledgement to John Kellogg and that fact all the new recordings were done using DASH format recorders and the TRIDENT DI-AN SYSTEM.

I am wondering if they would use this version of Pictures for the new 5.1 release or remix it again from the original masters?
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post #21 of 195 Old 04-24-2012, 06:00 PM
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Would love to have BSS in 5.1 - but at ~$60, I'll pass. Bummer.
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post #22 of 195 Old 04-25-2012, 03:09 AM
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Would love to have BSS in 5.1 - but at ~$60, I'll pass. Bummer.

Glad I bought mine for $14.99 in 2006
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post #23 of 195 Old 04-25-2012, 05:38 PM
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Glad I bought mine for $14.99 in 2006


+1

But if there are a lot of extras on the 3 disc set, I'm dumb enough to buy it again.
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post #24 of 195 Old 04-25-2012, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
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+1

But if there are a lot of extras on the 3 disc set, I'm dumb enough to buy it again.

Not dumb at all, just obsessive. We are passionate about our music...
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post #25 of 195 Old 04-26-2012, 01:25 AM
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Also on Return of the Manticore there are bunch of new recordings of
Touch and Go, Hang on to a Dream, 21st Century Schizoid Man (presumably from the King Crimson days), Fire, I Believe in Father Christmas, Pictures at an Exhibition.

I wonder if they will come out eventually in 5.1.
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post #26 of 195 Old 06-13-2012, 10:53 AM
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Amazon UK says that both releases are delayed to the end of July/August.
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post #27 of 195 Old 06-15-2012, 09:31 PM
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http://feedback.legacyrecordings.com/forums/6333-reissue-requests/suggestions/2931229-release-elp-5-1-mixes-in-high-resolution-

I wish I would've discovered this website sooner. VOTE NOW so we can tell Legacy that we want the ELP 5.1 reissues in High-Res! (use the 3 vote option)
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post #28 of 195 Old 06-21-2012, 09:20 AM
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Steven WIlson's posted an update on these reissues:
Quote:
Hi folks!

The first 2 ELPs will be DVD releases with DTS 5.1 and LPCM stereo. But the level of interest in high res has been noted by Sony, and I think we may now be in a position to change this for future releases.

So ELP have not stood the test of time as other bands from the era ??? I couldn't disagree with such comment more, but anyway that's not a reason to "re-conceive" Tarkus. I will not try to make a competition between ELP vs King Crimson vs Genesis vs Yes to make a point, as I love them all, but any of those can be beaten to death by whoever is not willing to understand prog aesthetics and label it "dated" (and I'm not implying that did happen in the interview). Anyway, I really find this comment very awkward. ELP has indeed passed the test of time, and by that I mean it has never been nor will be ever under dispute that ELP is one of the best prog bands ever (in terms of ambition, influence, music levels, performance levels, technology, historical importance). If nowadays music has nothing to do with ELP, well that's another discussion, but then maybe it's a good sign that ELP has nothing to do with nowadays music.

Well I did say it was just my opinion! I love ELP, sometimes acknowledging that something is a part of its time is not a criticism at all. I found that some of the music belonged more to its time than say music from the same era by Pink Floyd and King Crimson. And yes we are certainly not in dispute over ELP being one of the greatest prog rock bands ever.

And Jeremy Bender/Are you ready Eddy are "fillers"?? I'm sorry, but I just can't accept this. So why ELP played so much Jeremy Bender in public during the '70s? And why "Are you ready Eddy" have such incredible piano lines?

Well for me, yes Are you Ready Eddy really is the epitome of filler - a drunken rock n roll jam recorded by the band in order to make up enough music for the LP. On the other hand a track they worked really hard on like "Oh My Father" was left off for reasons of band politics or personal reasons, which are no longer relevant. Jeremy Bender, point taken.

What comes next? Will "Benny The Bouncer" be considered a "filler"? Maybe the Second Movement of Emerson's Concerto is also a "filler". "Tank" from Works 1 is most probably a "filler". So what? Fillers should be treated with respect, as someone who counts once decided they'd be in.
I personally don't like "C'est la vie": what if someone who shares this opinion with me, and is given power, decides it's a "filler"??


It depends - the whole idea grew out of the fact that for the first album the master tapes for Tank and two thirds of The Three Fates were missing, so with the caveat that the original album master was going to be included anyway, we came up with the idea of using some of the excellent out-takes to create a an alternative version of the album on the second CD with the new mixes. Having done this I thought it would be cool to extend the concept (with the band's approval) to Tarkus and to include the 2 excellent ballads that were left off the album in the running order of the new mixes of CD2 (again the original album master is included on CD1). It's only this second CD in the package that includes the alternate running order - Jeremy Bender and Are You Ready Eddy? are included in the correct place in the high res stereo on the DVD. Same is true of the 5.1 running order which matches the original album exactly (with Oh My Father as a bonus 5.1 mix at the end).

If we did carry the idea forward for a alternate running order to future albums, and replace one of the more (let's use this word instead of filler) "frivolous" tracks (and I accept that humour was an important part of these records, I'm not trying to wipe that out!), then one of 2 things would have to be true: either the multi tracks would have to be missing to that track, or there would have to be an out-take that was so good it merited replacing it in the alternate track listing order. Once again this would only be done on the basis that the original album master is also a part of the package.

Isn't the "Works 2" an album made of fillers?

Yes, it is - I won't be doing that one!

Is it difficult to understand the concept of respecting a band's decision 40 years ago?

What about respecting the band's decision now? This is all with their approval (in fact Greg wanted to change a lot more believe me!)

I just think things are being mixed-up here: there are musical/aesthetic decisions, and there are technical/audiophile decisions. Both are very important. But IMMO, there's an inner part of the former activity which the latter should not step into.

I guess where you draw the line on that is a personal thing. For example some would say don't even remix the material into surround sound, since it was never intended for it in the first place. Others would say leave out-takes unreleased since the band clearly didn't want them released at the time…etc.. My own line with these releases is to always ask the record company to include the original mix too, so that if there is a new mix then it simply becomes an alternate perspective. For the very first (and possibly) last time this has also extended to trying to present an alternate running order too (in one case by necessity, in another by choice). All I would ask is wait until you hear it before telling me whether you think it works or not. By the way, if you've never heard "Oh My Father" I really think it's astoundingly good, it's really the main reason why I wanted to do the alternate Tarkus thing.

One other thing worth noting is that the creation of the new stereo mixes is actually a necessary step towards creating the 5.1 mixes - when I started doing the 5.1 mixes of the Crimson catalogue it never occurred to me that the new stereo mixes would also be included. But then we began to hear that sometimes the new stereo mixes had a degree of clarity sometimes missing from the original mixes, and so starting with Lizard this became something that was always an option. I certainly don't think my ELP mixes are better than the originals (there's only a couple of times I would claim that there was a notable and clear improvement - Lizard and Aqualung, but even then it's down to taste), because the originals are fantastic - but they do sound different, and some people do seem to appreciate the alternative perspective.

Best!
SW
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post #29 of 195 Old 06-24-2012, 11:58 AM
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More power to Steven Wilson! He is the best thing going for the rock surround sound audiophile today. I found myself nodding in agreement with everything that he had to say about ELP; in contrast to the interviewer who seemed shallow and needlessly hostile in his/her questions to SW. SW isn't replacing anything. He is adding to the choices available to those of us who never thought that the day would come.

There is a treasure trove of 70's rock music awaiting his labor of love; PF's Animals, Tull's A Passion Play, the early Roxy Music catalogue, VdGG, etc. I, for one, would also love to hear more recent additions to the prog rock traditions like Kate Bush's Aerial as well as Radiohead's oeuvre remixed by SW in surround sound. I know that he is a fan of The Bends because he mentions this in the lyrics of one of the PT songs.

Have to also reverse my initial opinion of his Grace For Drowning; it was magnificant after I listened to it in DTS-HD. The influences from his remixing work with KC's Lizard and Islands were quite apparent. I hope that his busy schedule does not impact negatively on PT, which is greater than the sum of its parts.
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post #30 of 195 Old 06-24-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Nil View Post

More power to Steven Wilson! He is the best thing going for the rock surround sound audiophile today. I found myself nodding in agreement with everything that he had to say about ELP; in contrast to the interviewer who seemed shallow and needlessly hostile in his/her questions to SW. SW isn't replacing anything. He is adding to the choices available to those of us who never thought that the day would come.
There is a treasure trove of 70's rock music awaiting his labor of love; PF's Animals, Tull's A Passion Play, the early Roxy Music catalogue, VdGG, etc. I, for one, would also love to hear more recent additions to the prog rock traditions like Kate Bush's Aerial as well as Radiohead's oeuvre remixed by SW in surround sound. I know that he is a fan of The Bends because he mentions this in the lyrics of one of the PT songs.
Have to also reverse my initial opinion of his Grace For Drowning; it was magnificant after I listened to it in DTS-HD. The influences from his remixing work with KC's Lizard and Islands were quite apparent. I hope that his busy schedule does not impact negatively on PT, which is greater than the sum of its parts.

He's definitely not going to remix Animals (that would be a job only available to James Guthrie should Pink Floyd will it), and I highly doubt he'd mix the Bends either. Radiohead don't seem terribly interested in 5.1 surround of any kind. Same with Roxy Music, especially since High-Res DVDs were just cut from the upcoming Roxy Music box set.
SW has mentioned that he would love to remix "A Passion Play" in surround and given his recent work with Tull, I think that one could be highly probable for next year.
As for VdGG's albums, I think that could also be possible and I would definitely buy them if he did work his remixing magic.
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