Going Old-School ... Are all SACD / DVDa Players the same? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Going Old-School ... Are all SACD / DVDa Players the same?

Hi guys ... i hope to get some response, so please help out.

I have 2 players that both play SACDs .... I always felt like all of these SACD players sound somewhat the same. But now after upgrading/changing ... I think I hear a difference or maybe it's just my imagination???

I used to own Sony 222ES SACD player

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-hiYEOP3...CD-C222ES.html


and now I just bought a Denon 2910

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-XkMVSQt...910-Black.html

Reason for change ... Denon plays SACDr and DVDa so I need this one.

Nothing in the set up really changed much. Same connection via Analog 5.1 cables, using my Denon 4311 AVR simply be an amp ... no processing.


So ... what I heard once I switched ....

I "think" ... again, I "think" ... that Sony may have emphasized a bit more on details of the sound. Denon sounds a bit warmer (less harsh) but less detailed as well.

Could it be that the laser in Denon 2910 is overused and thus shows signs? Also ... I thought I heard more hiss sound coming out of speakers when Denon 2910 was playing. Again .... maybe it's all in my head. Any thoughts???

very much appreciated.

Denon AVR 4311ci, Ascend Sierra-1 NrT, Ascend HTM-200 (surrounds), Rythmik F12, Panasonic TH50PX60U, Samsung BD ES6000, Denon DVD-2910 SACD/DVDa, Monster HTS 5100 MKI, Monster Z2 Biwire, Logitech Harmony One, Sennheiser HD600, Schiit Modi/Vali
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post #2 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 09:35 AM
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Personally, I think you should have gone for something like the Oppo BDP-103 instead, as it's a far more flexible device.

Not only can the Oppo spin DVD-A and SACD disc's, it can also spin Blu-ray audio (and video) disc's and pull media files from USB and network connected storage devices...
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post #3 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post
Personally, I think you should have gone for something like the Oppo BDP-103 instead, as it's a far more flexible device.

Not only can the Oppo spin DVD-A and SACD disc's, it can also spin Blu-ray audio (and video) disc's and pull media files from USB and network connected storage devices...

Problem is that many of these new players,.. once they get updated, they are unable to play SACDr and DVDa recorded by user. So I had to stick with a surething. There is a short list of players that play these DVDRs

Denon AVR 4311ci, Ascend Sierra-1 NrT, Ascend HTM-200 (surrounds), Rythmik F12, Panasonic TH50PX60U, Samsung BD ES6000, Denon DVD-2910 SACD/DVDa, Monster HTS 5100 MKI, Monster Z2 Biwire, Logitech Harmony One, Sennheiser HD600, Schiit Modi/Vali
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post #4 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Based on tech specs ... which one looks to be superior?

Denon AVR 4311ci, Ascend Sierra-1 NrT, Ascend HTM-200 (surrounds), Rythmik F12, Panasonic TH50PX60U, Samsung BD ES6000, Denon DVD-2910 SACD/DVDa, Monster HTS 5100 MKI, Monster Z2 Biwire, Logitech Harmony One, Sennheiser HD600, Schiit Modi/Vali
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post #5 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
Same connection via Analog 5.1 cables, using my Denon 4311 AVR simply be an amp ... no processing.
There are more variables at work here than you might think. Since you're using the player's DAC, there are questions to answer. Does the on-board DAC convert DSD direct to analog? (probably not). If not, then the stream must first be converted to LPCM before the DAC (or in the DAC). Does the player do this conversion resulting in 24/88 LPCM or 24/44 LPCM or even 16/44 LPCM? While the differences can be difficult to hear, there are differences. I can assure you it has nothing to do with the laser or other mechanics in the player, this is all about the DAC itself, and the whole analog board. Denon is certainly known for building good DAC and analog boards, Sony not so much. The fact that you hear a difference is not surprising.

Edited to note that the Oppo can play DSD files directly, so there's no need for SACD-R discs.
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post #6 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post
There are more variables at work here than you might think. Since you're using the player's DAC, there are questions to answer. Does the on-board DAC convert DSD direct to analog? (probably not). If not, then the stream must first be converted to LPCM before the DAC (or in the DAC). Does the player do this conversion resulting in 24/88 LPCM or 24/44 LPCM or even 16/44 LPCM? While the differences can be difficult to hear, there are differences. I can assure you it has nothing to do with the laser or other mechanics in the player, this is all about the DAC itself, and the whole analog board. Denon is certainly known for building good DAC and analog boards, Sony not so much. The fact that you hear a difference is not surprising.

Edited to note that the Oppo can play DSD files directly, so there's no need for SACD-R discs.

to be honest, only today I'll actually hook up this Denon player via HDMI to TV in order to play around with the menu. So, what exactly should it be set to once I get to those options?

great feedback by the way ... thank you.

Denon AVR 4311ci, Ascend Sierra-1 NrT, Ascend HTM-200 (surrounds), Rythmik F12, Panasonic TH50PX60U, Samsung BD ES6000, Denon DVD-2910 SACD/DVDa, Monster HTS 5100 MKI, Monster Z2 Biwire, Logitech Harmony One, Sennheiser HD600, Schiit Modi/Vali
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post #7 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
Problem is that many of these new players,.. once they get updated, they are unable to play SACDr and DVDa recorded by user. So I had to stick with a surething. There is a short list of players that play these DVDRs
I understand your desire to SACD-R and recorded DVD-A playback. But unfortunately the older Denon universal players such as the 2910 are not always a sure thing. I bought a used 2930 to try Denon-Link with my 4311. The 2930 had issues right away playing a number of SACDs that I tried to play. The SACD layer just wouldn't play. The older Denon universal players are well know for having laser issues causing playback with certain disc formats. Luckliy the seller was great and refunded my payment and I returned the 2930.

rdgrimes makes a very good point in favor of the Oppo. In that the 103 and 105 can play DSD files directly, so there's no need for SACD-R discs.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

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Last edited by Bill Mac; 08-15-2014 at 02:08 PM.
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post #8 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I understand your desire to SACD-R and recorded DVD-A playback. But unfortunately the older Denon universal players such as the 2910 are not always a sure thing. I bought a used 2930 to try Denon-Link with my 4311. The 2930 had issues right away playing a number of SACDs that I tried to play. The SACD layer just wouldn't play. The older Denon universal players are well know for having laser issues causing playback with certain disc formats. Luckliy the seller was great and refunded my payment and I returned the 2930.

rdgrimes makes a very good point in favor of the Oppo. In that the 103 and 105 can play DSD files directly, so there's no need for SACD-R discs.

Bill
I heard about DSD and don't know much about it. Will definitely check it out but I have no problem with using SACDs. Your Denon 2930 was not listed as one of players that would play these kind of CDs. Here is the latest list

Cambridge Audio Azur 650BD
Cambridge Audio Azur 651BD
Cambridge Audio Azur 751BD
Cambridge Audio Azur 752BD
Denon DBP-1611UD
Denon DBP-2012UD
Denon DBT-1713UD
Denon DBT-3313UD
Denon DVD-2910
Denon DVD-3910
Denon DVD-5900
Denon DVD-5910
Denon DVD-A1XVA
Denon DVD-A11
Electrocompaniet EMP 3
Marantz DV7600
Marantz UD5005
Marantz UD5007
Marantz UD7006
Marantz UD7007
NAD M5
NAD M55
NAD T585
OPPO BDP-80
OPPO BDP-83
OPPO BDP-83SE
OPPO BDP-93
OPPO BDP-95
OPPO BDP-103
OPPO BDP-105
Pioneer BCS-424
Pioneer BDP-140
Pioneer BDP-150
Pioneer BDP-440
Pioneer BDP-450
Pioneer BDP-LX55
Shanling SCD-T200C
Sony BDV-E280
Sony BDP-S370/BX37
Sony BDP-S380
Sony BDP-S470
Sony BDP-S485
Sony BDP-S495
Sony BDP-S570
Sony BDP-S580
Sony BDP-S590
Sony BDP-S780
Sony BDP-S870
Sony BDP-S970
Sony BDV-E690 (до M12.R.0491)
Sony BDV-E870
Sony BDV-E970W
Sony BDV-E980B
Sony DAV-SC8
Sony SCD-1
Teac DV-20D
Yamaha BD-A1010
Yamaha BD-A1020
Yamaha BD-S1067

Denon AVR 4311ci, Ascend Sierra-1 NrT, Ascend HTM-200 (surrounds), Rythmik F12, Panasonic TH50PX60U, Samsung BD ES6000, Denon DVD-2910 SACD/DVDa, Monster HTS 5100 MKI, Monster Z2 Biwire, Logitech Harmony One, Sennheiser HD600, Schiit Modi/Vali
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post #9 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 02:36 PM
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You might want to update that list to indicate the 2930. Also add the 3930 to the list as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-DVD-2930.../dp/B000HDWXRI

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-DVD-3930.../dp/B000JHE9ZQ

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #10 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
to be honest, only today I'll actually hook up this Denon player via HDMI to TV in order to play around with the menu. So, what exactly should it be set to once I get to those options?

great feedback by the way ... thank you.
You'd want to consult the dedicated AVR and player threads for those models to see what settings are recommended.

By FAR the biggest impact on analog audio quality from a player is the design and build quality of the analog board. The specs and model of the DAC chip mean much less, and even the digital implementation of the chip can vary a lot from player to player. So 2 different players with the same DAC chip can sound different.

Personally, I think your best route to audio nirvana is to ditch the old Denon AVR and get a new HDMI model. Connect your player by HDMI and let the AVR handle everything. The newer AVRs have much improved DAC and analog boards, as well as auto EQ and setup routines that leave older AVRs in the dust. Seriously, the quality of processing in newer AVRs has improved dramatically in recent years.
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post #11 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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You'd want to consult the dedicated AVR and player threads for those models to see what settings are recommended.

By FAR the biggest impact on analog audio quality from a player is the design and build quality of the analog board. The specs and model of the DAC chip mean much less, and even the digital implementation of the chip can vary a lot from player to player. So 2 different players with the same DAC chip can sound different.

Personally, I think your best route to audio nirvana is to ditch the old Denon AVR and get a new HDMI model. Connect your player by HDMI and let the AVR handle everything. The newer AVRs have much improved DAC and analog boards, as well as auto EQ and setup routines that leave older AVRs in the dust. Seriously, the quality of processing in newer AVRs has improved dramatically in recent years.

Actually my AVR is not that old. It's I believe 2012 model and it has 6 HDMI inputs.
Denon 4311ci

Problem is that Denon 2910 player may have a much better Analog output than HDMI audio output. At least that's what I heard

Denon AVR 4311ci, Ascend Sierra-1 NrT, Ascend HTM-200 (surrounds), Rythmik F12, Panasonic TH50PX60U, Samsung BD ES6000, Denon DVD-2910 SACD/DVDa, Monster HTS 5100 MKI, Monster Z2 Biwire, Logitech Harmony One, Sennheiser HD600, Schiit Modi/Vali
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post #12 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post
Personally, I think your best route to audio nirvana is to ditch the old Denon AVR and get a new HDMI model. Connect your player by HDMI and let the AVR handle everything. The newer AVRs have much improved DAC and analog boards, as well as auto EQ and setup routines that leave older AVRs in the dust. Seriously, the quality of processing in newer AVRs has improved dramatically in recent years.
The OP has the 4311 so he has HDMI and Audyssey XT32.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #13 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
Actually my AVR is not that old. It's I believe 2012 model and it has 6 HDMI inputs.
Denon 4311ci

Problem is that Denon 2910 player may have a much better Analog output than HDMI audio output. At least that's what I heard
I'll give you my standard answer:
If HDMI output utilizing the rull range of available EQ and speaker setup options in the AVR, sounds worse than analog (which bypasses all AVR processing) - then your AVR is not set up correctly. This is true 99.9% of the time.

It has nothing to do with any "quality" issues of the HDMI output in the player, and everything to do with the setup in the AVR. The AVR setup tools are not "one button" magic, they need to be used with care by a knowledgeable user with an appropriate amount of time invested.
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post #14 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post
Problem is that Denon 2910 player may have a much better Analog output than HDMI audio output. At least that's what I heard
I would try the Denon-Link input/ouput. I believe you can use a basic ethernet cable. Some claim better SQ (no jitter?) when using Denon-Link.

Edit: I might be wrong on this. Does the 2910 have a Denon-Link output?

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.

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post #15 of 17 Old 08-15-2014, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I would try the Denon-Link input/ouput. I believe you can use a basic ethernet cable. Some claim better SQ (no jitter?) when using Denon-Link.

Edit: I might be wrong on this. Does the 2910 have a Denon-Link output?

Bill
I don't think so. Like I said, I am fine with SACDs ... just as long as I am not downgrading in sound. I am going to connect this SACDs player via HDMI to AVR later today to go through the menu .. will see how it sounds through it.

by the way ... if I connect the player via Analog as well as HDMI ... how does this work? both send signal and it depends on what Input I select on AVR that will produce the sound? If that's the case then it will be very easy and fast to compare sound

Denon AVR 4311ci, Ascend Sierra-1 NrT, Ascend HTM-200 (surrounds), Rythmik F12, Panasonic TH50PX60U, Samsung BD ES6000, Denon DVD-2910 SACD/DVDa, Monster HTS 5100 MKI, Monster Z2 Biwire, Logitech Harmony One, Sennheiser HD600, Schiit Modi/Vali
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post #16 of 17 Old 08-16-2014, 03:37 AM
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Have you calibrated your system for both digital and multichannel analog? The digital setup of your Denon does not apply when using the external inputs. Plus, any comparison you try to do will be meaningless unless both signal paths are properly calibrated and level matched.

Last edited by BIslander; 08-16-2014 at 03:41 AM.
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post #17 of 17 Old 08-16-2014, 10:43 AM
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It has been a while and I own both the DVD-2910 and the DVD-3910. The latter I use in our Reference system but started a thread a few posts below trying to find a stand alone Blu ray player that plays DVD-A at a good price...That said, it's been a while but doesn't the DVD-2910 only play either DVD-A or SACD through the HDMI output? It's been a while but I remember something like that and I believe it was SACD and not DVD-A but I could be wrong. Anyone?
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