Dutton Vocalion SACDS - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 50Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 130 Old 08-12-2017, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Dutton Vocalion SACDS

I just wanted to note the problems I've had with every single SACD I've gotten from Dutton / Vocalion... Mancini, Floyd Cramer, Stokowski, Hugo Montenegro... I think this label is mastering their multichannel music improperly.

I just got the Stokowski Bach Transcriptions / Wagner Brunnhilde's Immolation. It's derived from a quad master, but when I play it the light for 5.1 lights up. The response is very band limited. There is almost nothing below 80Hz. I had bass management turned on and I tried boosting the level of my sub to +16dB. With any other music, that would make the bass explode rattling the walls, but I could barely hear any difference with this SACD. The kettle drums were all top end rattle, no sub bass and the same was true of the string basses. At the end when the Rhine overflows its banks there is an extended triangle trill. It sounded like a bell, not a triangle- as if there was nothing above about 10 or 12kHz. The violins were mushy and lacked definition too. Normally, I would blame it on the recording, but I have the Decca Stokowski CD box set and on there the bass is full and the treble is crisp.

There also seems to be some rechannelling going on. Even though this is a quad recording, there's sound coming out of the center channel, and sometimes there are odd balances where something that should be front left or front right gets smeared to the rear channel along the side wall. Very unnatural sounding when it's strings in the Stokowski or piano in the Mancini. When this happens there is a weird phasey distortion that sounds like one of those fake stereo boxes from the 70s. I've never heard the quad versions of these albums, so I don't know how the parts are laid out in the four channels, but I have the stereo CDs of the Stokowski and Mancini albums and the CDs sound a LOT better than the SACDs.

I encountered these same exact same problems on every other Dutton Vocalion disk I've gotten. It sounds nice and clean in the middle frequencies, but there are steep rolloffs on the top and bottom, as if I was playing them on bookshelf speakers, not full range speakers with a subwoofer. I thought it might be just the Mancini and Cramer albums since they were among the first SACDs Dutton Vocalion produced, but now more than a year later, I just got two new releases and they have the same problems. Perhaps they might sound OK on headphones or on little bookshelf speakers, but on a good system it sounds really bad.

Just letting everyone know. if you see stuff you like on the Dutton label, try one and see what you think before you go ordering a bunch from England. Caveat emptor.

UPDATE

Some Dutton Vocalion releases don't have these problems. Here is a list of the ones verified by our forum members to have a full frequency response:

Ray Davies and the Button Down Brass: Themes from The Exorcist, The French Connection, The Sting and other great films & Flashpoint
Pure Prairie League: Two Lane Highway & If the Shoe Fits
JA Fant likes this.

Last edited by sworth; 08-21-2017 at 06:55 PM.
sworth is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 12:50 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
I recently ordered Return To Forever - Musicmagic, Alice Coltrane & Carlos Santana - Illuminations and Pure Prairie League -Two Lane Highway & If the Shoe Fits Dutton/Vocalion SACDs. I just did a quick search over at the Steve Hoffman forum and there was no mention of any issues with the quad mixes that you're experiencing. Just checked the Quadrophonic Quad forum quickly for posts about Dutton/Vocalion quad SACDs and I saw nothing but positive remarks. You might want to check to see if you have any settings not set correctly.

Bill
JA Fant likes this.

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #3 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 01:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JA Fant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Prattville AL
Posts: 1,656
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 335 Post(s)
Liked: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I just wanted to note the problems I've had with every single SACD I've gotten from Dutton / Vocalion... Mancini, Floyd Cramer, Stokowski, Hugo Montenegro... I think this label is mastering their multichannel music improperly.

I just got the Stokowski Bach Transcriptions / Wagner Brunnhilde's Immolation. It's derived from a quad master, but when I play it the light for 5.1 lights up. The response is very band limited. There is almost nothing below 80Hz. I had bass management turned on and I tried boosting the level of my sub to +16dB. With any other music, that would make the bass explode rattling the walls, but I could barely hear any difference with this SACD. The kettle drums were all top end rattle, no sub bass and the same was true of the string basses. At the end when the Rhine overflows its banks there is an extended triangle trill. It sounded like a bell, not a triangle- as if there was nothing above about 10 or 12kHz. The violins were mushy and lacked definition too. Normally, I would blame it on the recording, but I have the Decca Stokowski CD box set and on there the bass is full and the treble is crisp.

There also seems to be some rechannelling going on. Even though this is a quad recording, there's sound coming out of the center channel, and sometimes there are odd balances where something that should be front left or front right gets smeared to the rear channel along the side wall. Very unnatural sounding when it's strings in the Stokowski or piano in the Mancini. When this happens there is a weird phasey distortion that sounds like one of those fake stereo boxes from the 70s. I've never heard the quad versions of these albums, so I don't know how the parts are laid out in the four channels, but I have the stereo CDs of the Stokowski and Mancini albums and the CDs sound a LOT better than the SACDs.

I encountered these same exact same problems on every other Dutton Vocalion disk I've gotten. It sounds nice and clean in the middle frequencies, but there are steep rolloffs on the top and bottom, as if I was playing them on bookshelf speakers, not full range speakers with a subwoofer. I thought it might be just the Mancini and Cramer albums since they were among the first SACDs Dutton Vocalion produced, but now more than a year later, I just got two new releases and they have the same problems. Perhaps they might sound OK on headphones or on little bookshelf speakers, but on a good system it sounds really bad.

Just letting everyone know. if you see stuff you like on the Dutton label, try one and see what you think before you go ordering a bunch from England. Caveat emptor.
Thanks! for sharing- sworth
JA Fant is offline  
 
post #4 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 01:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JA Fant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Prattville AL
Posts: 1,656
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 335 Post(s)
Liked: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I recently ordered Return To Forever - Musicmagic, Alice Coltrane & Carlos Santana - Illuminations and Pure Prairie League -Two Lane Highway & If the Shoe Fits Dutton/Vocalion SACDs. I just did a quick search over at the Steve Hoffman forum and there was no mention of any issues with the quad mixes that you're experiencing. Just checked the Quadrophonic Quad forum quickly for posts about Dutton/Vocalion quad SACDs and I saw nothing but positive remarks. You might want to check to see if you have any settings not set correctly.

Bill
Good to see you -Bill Mac.
RTF and Coltrane/Santana are both on my radar as well. Once you receive your copies, post back here your impressions and thoughts. Happy Listening!
JA Fant is offline  
post #5 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 01:35 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
Good to see you -Bill Mac.
RTF and Coltrane/Santana are both on my radar as well. Once you receive your copies, post back here your impressions and thoughts. Happy Listening!
Hey JA,

I'll definitely post my thoughts on the Dutton/Vocalion SACDs ordered once I get a chance to give them a good listen.

Bill
JA Fant likes this.

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #6 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I recently ordered Return To Forever - Musicmagic, Alice Coltrane & Carlos Santana - Illuminations and Pure Prairie League -Two Lane Highway & If the Shoe Fits Dutton/Vocalion SACDs. I just did a quick search over at the Steve Hoffman forum and there was no mention of any issues with the quad mixes that you're experiencing. Just checked the Quadrophonic Quad forum quickly for posts about Dutton/Vocalion quad SACDs and I saw nothing but positive remarks. You might want to check to see if you have any settings not set correctly.
I went through all the checking of settings with the first batch. All of my other SACDs sound fine, and the CDs of the two titles I have on CD have deep bass, but there is nothing on the SACDs below 80Hz. Bass management pulls up nothing from the mains, and the LFE track appears to be silent. I think they set it up for doing an LFE channel crossing over at 80Hz, but then they neglected to master the LFE channel onto the SACD. There is something wrong with the way they're mastering these and they are doing it consistently on all of their reissues of older material. Perhaps their modern rock stuff is handled differently.

The dead giveaway is that I boosted my sub to +16dB and it didn't make any difference. There is nothing there under 80Hz to pull up. That definitely isn't right for a classical album with heavy tympani. I suspect most people don't notice this because they listen on small speakers or headphones and just figure these were recorded that way. But these are RCA recordings in the prime of their engineering quality. They should have bass.

Last edited by sworth; 08-13-2017 at 04:11 PM.
sworth is offline  
post #7 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 04:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I went through all the checking of settings with the first batch. All of my other SACDs sound fine, and the CDs of the two titles I have on CD have deep bass, but there is nothing on the SACDs below 80Hz. Bass management pulls up nothing from the mains, and the LFE track appears to be silent. I think they set it up for doing an LFE channel crossing over at 80Hz, but then they neglected to master the LFE channel onto the SACD. There is something wrong with the way they're mastering these and they are doing it consistently on all of their reissues of older material. Perhaps their modern rock stuff is handled differently.

The dead giveaway is that I boosted my sub to +16dB and it didn't make any difference. There is nothing there under 80Hz to pull up. I suspect most people don't notice this because they listen on small speakers or headphones and just figure these were recorded that way.
If this was such an issue wouldn't there be other's discussing it? I haven't really looked into it that deeply. But some people I know that are very knowledgeable on multichannel music do not mention anything about no bass below 80Hz.

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #8 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
I posted about it to Quadraphonic Quad and another person replied posting a frequency spectrum chart showing one of the songs with almost no content below 80Hz. The moderators deleted both of our posts and sent me a PM saying that I wasn't allowed to post on the subject. I think they have some sort of business relationship with the label. That's why I'm posting here, not there.

It isn't hard to verify. If your sub is set to crossover at 80Hz, all you have to do is put your ear up against it. Almost nothing comes out of the sub channel. I think the tiny bit that does is just the rolloff right at 80Hz. That isn't normal for my other SACDs. But every one of the Dutton Vocalion ones I've gotten have almost nothing coming out of the sub. It may be something to do with my settings, but I've checked them... My Oppo is set to PCM output, my AVR has all speakers set to small and a bass management crossover at 80Hz. I don't know what else could cause something like this. If you have any suggestions for things to check, let me know and I will. All my other SACDs have plenty of bass. The fact that only this one label sounds like this tends to make me think their system isn't calibrated correctly and mine is. I wouldn't mind if it was just a little bit low in volume. I could fix that. But when everything is lopped off below 80Hz, I can't turn up the bass because it just isn't there.

Last edited by sworth; 08-13-2017 at 04:29 PM.
sworth is offline  
post #9 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 04:42 PM
Senior Member
 
oblio98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I posted about it to Quadraphonic Quad and another person replied posting a frequency spectrum chart showing one of the songs with almost no content below 80Hz. The moderators deleted both of our posts and sent me a PM saying that I wasn't allowed to post on the subject. I think they have some sort of business relationship with the label. That's why I'm posting here, not there.......
First off, this is JonUrban from QQ. QQ is my forum and no one that I know of has ever in the entire 15 years of the forum every taken any money from anyone for anything. We/I support all companies who promote multichannel and do so without compensation or bias.

I do not know why "moderators" deleted posts about this, but I am going to find out why and who and rectify the situation.

In the meantime, I will check my own Dutton-Vocalion SACDs and see what I can find out, and oh yes, I bought and paid for them myself, and waited for them to arrive like everyone else.

More in a bit..............

[Early Adopter]
oblio98 is offline  
post #10 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 05:03 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I posted about it to Quadraphonic Quad and another person replied posting a frequency spectrum chart showing one of the songs with almost no content below 80Hz. The moderators deleted both of our posts and sent me a PM saying that I wasn't allowed to post on the subject. I think they have some sort of business relationship with the label. That's why I'm posting here, not there.
I would suggest checking out post #398 in the thread from QQ linked below. Maybe if you show the PM to the Mod they can straighten it out.

http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...319#post342319

Edit: several other members over at the QQ Forum have posted replying to your claims posted here. You might want to possibly reconsider some of your claims to what transpired over at the QQ Forum.

Below is a link to a new thread over at the QQ Forum specifically addressing your claims that Dutton Vocalion Surround Sound SACDs "Improperly Mastered".

http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...328#post342328

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.

Last edited by Bill Mac; 08-13-2017 at 05:34 PM.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #11 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Don't ask people in internet forums. Listen to the disc and check out the sub channel for yourself. I can give you the titles to order if you're interested. Quadraphonic Quad deleted my questions, so I'm not going to go back there and ask again. I'm not going to go back and log in to get the PM from their Admin. I have no respect for their "authority" on this topic. I like this forum better.

If you have a suggestion about how I can get sub 80Hz bass to play from these disks, I'm all ears. I tried boosting the sub channel and there was nothing there to boost.

Last edited by sworth; 08-13-2017 at 08:53 PM.
sworth is offline  
post #12 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by oblio98 View Post
FI do not know why "moderators" deleted posts about this, but I am going to find out why and who and rectify the situation. In the meantime, I will check my own Dutton-Vocalion SACDs and see what I can find out,
Thank you. If you happen to own the Mancini Severinson or Stoki Bach Transcriptions discs, that is a good place to start.
sworth is offline  
post #13 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 09:05 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
Don't ask people in internet forums. Listen to the disc and check out the sub channel for yourself. I can give you the titles to order if you're interested. Quadraphonic Quad deleted my questions, so I'm not going to go back there and ask again. I'm not going to go back and log in to get the PM from their Admin. I have no respect for their "authority" on this topic. I like this forum better.

If you have a suggestion about how I can get sub 80Hz bass to play from these disks, I'm all ears. I tried boosting the sub channel and there was nothing there to boost.
For some reason I'd say you have an issue with Dutton Vocalion as you posted the same thing as you did at the Talk Classical forums linked below. So that's three forums (AVS, Talk Classical and QQ) that you've posted "issues" with about DV SACDs. In all of those threads I haven't seen one other person agree with your "findings".

http://www.talkclassical.com/50895-d...ml#post1295914

How about your claims that "I think they have some sort of business relationship with the label". The "they" being the QQ Forum. Well Jon from QQ totally denies anyone on QQ takes money for anything. How about doing the right thing and apologizing for that bogus claim? I'd have to bet that far more people respect Jon from QQ than they would you.

Bill
JimWinVA likes this.

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #14 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
I post to the groups I post to. That isn't an issue with a label. It's letting my friends know when I have a problem. You'll find a post by me on it at Head-Fi too

If you can think of better reasons why a forum would delete critical reviews, please suggest them. I'm sure the guy who owns the forum is trying to find that out right now.

Go listen to Mancini and Severinson and Stoki Bach/Wagner and try to find frequencies below 80Hz, then come back and let me know what you find. If there is sound in the bottom two octaves, I would like to know how to access it, because I like the music a lot. There are too many reviews based on bitrates, label reputation or forum "experts". I listen and judge for myself. Try that and see what you find out. I'd post the spectrum chart the guy posted on QQ, but it was deleted so I can't access it any more. I asked the admin to restore it to the thread, but he refused.

Last edited by sworth; 08-13-2017 at 10:50 PM.
sworth is offline  
post #15 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 10:56 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I post to the groups I post to. That isn't an issue with a label. It's letting my friends know when I have a problem.

If you can think of a better reason why a forum would delete critical reviews, please suggest them. I'm sure the guy who owns the forum is trying to find that out right now.

Go listen to Mancini and Severinson and Stoki Bach/Wagner and try to find frequencies below 80Hz, then come back and let me know what you find. If there is sound in the bottom three octaves, I would like to know how to access it, because I like the music a lot. There are too many reviews based on bitrates, label reputation or forum "experts". I listen and judge for myself. Try that and see what you find out. I'd post the spectrum chart the guy posted on QQ, but it was deleted so I can't access it any more. I asked the admin to restore it to the thread, but he refused.
I posted a link to the QQ Forum earlier that goes into detail in several posts of the situation that you claimed happened. One QQ member and mod gives a totally different perspective than you did. If one reads through your posts here there is a definite pattern. That is one of a lot of negativity about many different titles and so on. I have zero interest in the titles you mentioned. But I'll say it once again you are the only one that has complained about the DV SACDs in regard to low bass. I'm to the point where I should just disregard your posts as they are mostly negative and quite often have no facts to back them up.

In the case with QQ you're playing the victim. I think it's more a case of the members of QQ calling you out on your baseless claims and you took exception to it.

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #16 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Can you show me frequencies below 80Hz in the titles I mentioned? Shouldn't there be frequencies below that in the SACD since they are in the CDs of the same title? Don't try to make it personal. Listen to the discs I'm talking about and see for yourself. If you aren't interested in doing that, step aside. Maybe someone else in this forum has those titles and will check.
thehun likes this.
sworth is offline  
post #17 of 130 Old 08-13-2017, 11:51 PM
Advanced Member
 
drh3b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 431 Post(s)
Liked: 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
Can you show me frequencies below 80Hz in the titles I mentioned? Shouldn't there be frequencies below that in the SACD since they are in the CDs of the same title? Don't try to make it personal. Listen to the discs I'm talking about and see for yourself. If you aren't interested in doing that, step aside. Maybe someone else in this forum has those titles and will check.
I read through the threads, and no one seems to agree with you. I know you said you have bass management on, but I wonder if this somehow the problem. Are your speakers full range enough for you to turn bass management off, and run the 4.0 tracks straight through and see if that brings any bass?
Bill Mac likes this.

Denon AVR-X4300H
Emotiva XPA Gen3 3 channel
Klipsch RP-280f LR, RP-260f SR, RP-450c, RF-82 II SB, RC-10 height
SVS SB12-NSD x4
OPPO UDP-203 TiVo Roamio, adequate Samsung UHD LED TV
drh3b is offline  
post #18 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 06:11 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
Can you show me frequencies below 80Hz in the titles I mentioned? Shouldn't there be frequencies below that in the SACD since they are in the CDs of the same title? Don't try to make it personal. Listen to the discs I'm talking about and see for yourself. If you aren't interested in doing that, step aside. Maybe someone else in this forum has those titles and will check.
Why should I or anyone else have to show there are frequencies below 80Hz on the DV SACDs you've listed? Why don't you post frequency spectrum charts to prove your point? If you are so intent on this issue it's all on you and no one else. I've seen a number of posts over at the QQ Forum that state there is no loss of frequencies below 80Hz when their speakers were set to small.

Making it personal. really? Aren't you the one that claimed that the staff of the QQ Forum deleted your posts because "they have some sort of business relationship with the label"? Talk about making this whole topic personal . You were dead wrong to make such an allegation. But you don't feel in any way the need to acknowledge the fact that you were wrong. If you don't think you were wrong why don't you post facts that show the QQ Forum is taking money from Dutton Vocalion. Once again it's on you to back up your claims.

I'm not stepping away at all. If I hadn't posted over at the QQ Forum about your claims the real story would not have come out. I've seen similar postings over at the Emotiva Lounge with members over there trashing AVS and the members here. I've defended AVS over at the Emotiva Lounge and will defend the QQ Forum here as well.

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #19 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Please wait with me until someone here replies who has one of these discs and can check them. No need to mad dog me all the time. It only discourages other people from replying.
sworth is offline  
post #20 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
I read through the threads, and no one seems to agree with you. I know you said you have bass management on, but I wonder if this somehow the problem. Are your speakers full range enough for you to turn bass management off, and run the 4.0 tracks straight through and see if that brings any bass?
I tried that on the Mancini, but I didn't on the Stoki. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try and let you know. My speakers are all full range, so if the problem is the way the disc is set up for bass management, that should show it.

Question: If a disc has an LFE track but there's nothing in it, would that disable bass management? I was thinking that might be related to the problem originally, but someone posted that bass management works regardless of the LFE track. I also thought it might be because they put the bass in the rears, but someone said that bass management covers the rear channels too. When I play this back, the Oppo reports it as 5.1 not 4.0. Is that correct?

The end of the Gotterdammerung Symphonic Synthesis has big tympani rolls and hits. There should be sub bass on that as well as with the string bass parts. That is what I'm listening to when I test. The brass sounds excellent, and the strings are OK but dense. That could just be because of free bowing. But the bass is the big thing. If I could solve that problem, this would be a decent disc. Whatever it is, it's something peculiar to this brand. All of my other SACDs have sound coming out of the sub.

Last edited by sworth; 08-14-2017 at 08:43 AM.
sworth is offline  
post #21 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 11:22 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
Please wait with me until someone here replies who has one of these discs and can check them. No need to mad dog me all the time. It only discourages other people from replying.
It doubt it discourages anyone from replying to this thread. I'm not "mad dogging" you at all. Just look at the way you post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I tried that on the Mancini, but I didn't on the Stoki. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try and let you know. My speakers are all full range, so if the problem is the way the disc is set up for bass management, that should show it.

Question: If a disc has an LFE track but there's nothing in it, would that disable bass management? I was thinking that might be related to the problem originally, but someone posted that bass management works regardless of the LFE track. I also thought it might be because they put the bass in the rears, but someone said that bass management covers the rear channels too. When I play this back, the Oppo reports it as 5.1 not 4.0. Is that correct?

The end of the Gotterdammerung Symphonic Synthesis has big tympani rolls and hits. There should be sub bass on that as well as with the string bass parts. That is what I'm listening to when I test. The brass sounds excellent, and the strings are OK but dense. That could just be because of free bowing. But the bass is the big thing. If I could solve that problem, this would be a decent disc. Whatever it is, it's something peculiar to this brand. All of my other SACDs have sound coming out of the sub.
If you set all of your speakers to full range or large then you'll also see if there is a lack of bass. If there is no LFE signal as there shouldn't be for a 4.0 quad recordings bass management is not disabled. Not sure why you would think that. Same as if it was a stereo 2.0 recording. If you set your speakers to small for 4.0 or 2.0 a signal will be sent to your sub(s) depending on the crossover setting. I have many 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 SACDs that show as 5.1 with both of my Oppo players. I don't see it as an issue as they all play the correct amount of channels and are not forced to 5.1. Quad recordings should have the bass spread equally over all four speakers. But I'm sure that isn't a given though.

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.

Last edited by Bill Mac; 08-14-2017 at 11:36 AM.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #22 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 12:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JA Fant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Prattville AL
Posts: 1,656
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 335 Post(s)
Liked: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
Hey JA,

I'll definitely post my thoughts on the Dutton/Vocalion SACDs ordered once I get a chance to give them a good listen.

Bill
Keep me posted- Bill Mac
JA Fant is offline  
post #23 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 12:45 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by JA Fant View Post
Keep me posted- Bill Mac
I sure will !

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #24 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 01:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
weekendtoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern MN
Posts: 805
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 320 Post(s)
Liked: 313
My only issue is that wished they'd get here sooner . 14 days now and counting. Maybe today!
Bill Mac likes this.

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

weekendtoy is offline  
post #25 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 02:02 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by weekendtoy View Post
My only issue is that wished they'd get here sooner . 14 days now and counting. Maybe today!
Did you order direct from Dutton Vocalion? If you did was any tracking info provided? I ordered direct from DV and just tried to check the order but my email is not recognized. I sent DV and email to see what's up as this is my first order from them.

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #26 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 06:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
weekendtoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern MN
Posts: 805
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 320 Post(s)
Liked: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
Did you order direct from Dutton Vocalion? If you did was any tracking info provided? I ordered direct from DV and just tried to check the order but my email is not recognized. I sent DV and email to see what's up as this is my first order from them.

Bill
Yea direct from Dutton Vocalion. My order status indicates payment received 8/1/17 with shipping method: postage to the rest of the world (no postage). I'll wait until the end of the week before I start getting nervous.

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

weekendtoy is offline  
post #27 of 130 Old 08-14-2017, 06:41 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,457
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1561 Post(s)
Liked: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by weekendtoy View Post
Yea direct from Dutton Vocalion. My order status indicates payment received 8/1/17 with shipping method: postage to the rest of the world (no postage). I'll wait until the end of the week before I start getting nervous.
I think you'll be fine. I usually figure at least 2-3 weeks for any music shipped from the UK.

Bill

My SACD collection and HRAudio.net Library, getting larger as my wallet gets smaller ;-).

Emotiva XMC-1, Wyred 4 Sound SX-500s, ST-500, ST-250, Oppo BDP-103/105D, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk HT2-TLs, Salk 1801b center, Salk 1801TL (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #28 of 130 Old 08-15-2017, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
sworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hollywood, U.S.A.
Posts: 706
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 386 Post(s)
Liked: 178
I don't think you can order Dutton Vocalion SACDs any other way. I don't think they are at Amazon UK. I haven't had a chance to fire up my system yet. I'll do the test and report back when I do.

Currently, I'm converting to PCM in the Oppo and handing to my Yamaha AVR through HDMI. The Yamaha is doing bass management with crossover at 80Hz and all my speakers are set to small. Nothing comes out of the sub, but the sub works fine on all my other SACDs. I'll try setting all my speakers at large with no bass management. They're all full range speakers so it should work if the problem is bass management.

Last edited by sworth; 08-15-2017 at 08:25 AM.
sworth is offline  
post #29 of 130 Old 08-15-2017, 05:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia
Posts: 8,959
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 771 Post(s)
Liked: 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
I read through the threads, and no one seems to agree with you. I know you said you have bass management on, but I wonder if this somehow the problem. Are your speakers full range enough for you to turn bass management off, and run the 4.0 tracks straight through and see if that brings any bass?
From a technical perspective that is just silly. There is no LFE on these discs so all the 4 main channels are full range. A bass manager is nothing but a 2 way crossover implemented in this case in digital domain. So by itself it cannot make the bass disappear unless a corresponding sub is turned off, or faulty. I have fate that sworth already discounted such variables.
Bill Mac and captainbrent like this.

De sagittis Hungarorum libera nos, Domine!


Ex diversis cogitationibus ex cute color.

The Hun
thehun is online now  
post #30 of 130 Old 08-15-2017, 05:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia
Posts: 8,959
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 771 Post(s)
Liked: 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworth View Post
I tried that on the Mancini, but I didn't on the Stoki. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a try and let you know. My speakers are all full range, so if the problem is the way the disc is set up for bass management, that should show it.
Discs are not set for any type of bass management, it's up to the user entirely.
Quote:
Question: If a disc has an LFE track but there's nothing in it, would that disable bass management?
No
Quote:
When I play this back, the Oppo reports it as 5.1 not 4.0. Is that correct?
Yes, some 4.0 discs are authored as such and it could be a mistake, or deliberate either way it won't affect BM.
Bill Mac likes this.

De sagittis Hungarorum libera nos, Domine!


Ex diversis cogitationibus ex cute color.

The Hun
thehun is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Surround Music Formats

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off