DVD-A of Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon at last!! - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 1390 Old 03-25-2006, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Did anyone else notice that in the Parsons interview he said he put the opening heartbeat on the right side, where someone's heart would be if they were facing you, yet on the quad-mix DVD-A the heartbeat is clearly on the left.

I noticed that too and thought perhaps the transfer had swapped the LF and RF channels, but the cash register sounds at the beginning of "Money" start in the LF which is where they should according to that same Parsons interview.

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post #62 of 1390 Old 03-25-2006, 12:11 PM
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Re-read the interview. He put the heartbeat on the right side of the STEREO mix, not the quad.

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post #63 of 1390 Old 03-25-2006, 08:41 PM
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I said the same thing in the Quad Forum, but Larry is on the money.

Maybe Parsons wanted to put us in the first person in the quad mix...?
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post #64 of 1390 Old 03-25-2006, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Flexx View Post

I said the same thing in the Quad Forum, but Larry is on the money.

Maybe Parsons wanted to put us in the first person in the quad mix...?

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post #65 of 1390 Old 03-26-2006, 05:12 PM
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I have a problem with the surround left rear channel on the lossless audio track. It doesn't play on my samsung ht-p38. the other 3 channels sound superb but that channel is barely there. The dts track sounds incredible and I hear all four channels.
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post #66 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 07:50 AM
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Listening closely, the level on that channels is very low so it sounds like 3.1 instead of 4.1. DD5.1 and dts tracks are fine, just the lossless tracks.
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post #67 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike View Post

Listening closely, the level on that channels is very low so it sounds like 3.1 instead of 4.1. DD5.1 and dts tracks are fine, just the lossless tracks.

You're the only one with this problem, telemike, so it's something on your end.

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post #68 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 10:01 AM
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I'll need to get another DVD-A title to see if it's the samsung HTIB. I burned the iso with nero onto a dvd +r.

Anyways, the dts track is pretty darn good. The surround mix is stunning.
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post #69 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 12:49 PM
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I don't know why some people are complaining about the LFE channel on this title. I am thankful for it and I think it sounds fantastic! I do not utilize bass management or any other digital signal processing that will muck with the signal. In my opinion, BM and DSP can be bypassed entirely with proper speaker selection, placement and subwoofer blending.

My speakers are full range, but they certainly don't dip down to the low levels offered by my subwoofer. As a 4.0 title, with four full range channels on four full range speakers, there is still missing bass information! In fact, I have never heard Roger Water's bass sound so good on DSOTM as it does on this DVD-A (well, his bass sounds pretty darn good on the SACD as well).

Someone mentioned before that there is no LFE mixing approach that will work for all systems/configurations. The LFE channel, along with the center channel, have always been the ugly stepchildren of surround mixing: what the heck do you do with them? No matter what you do, someone is bound to complain.

A finely crafted LFE targeting systems that are properly configured is the best way to go, IMHO, and this DVD-A hits a home run as far as I'm concerned! For those that don't like the LFE: DISCCONECT THE LFE CHANNEL OR TURN YOUR FRIGGIN' SUBWOOFER OFF!!!
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post #70 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Did anyone else notice that in the Parsons interview he said he put the opening heartbeat on the right side, where someone's heart would be if they were facing you, yet on the quad-mix DVD-A the heartbeat is clearly on the left.

With a quad mix, maybe it's more aiming for YOUR heart beating?

Main screen turn on. All your base are belong to us.
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post #71 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 02:36 PM
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Captain...

I think that we all agree that this mix, on its own merits, sounds great!

---

The reason why the LFE channel is unneeded in music mixes is that each of the other channels is already full-range. There is low-frequency response and dynamic range enough to satisfy the full range of any sound we can hear available on any of these main channels. The standard practices and common equipment used for commercial cinema audio are very different than home systems.

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My speakers are full range, but they certainly don't dip down to the low levels offered by my subwoofer

Well then...your speakers are not full range.

You have every right to live with them. If you want their respective channels to be reproduced full-range, you will have to integrate the subwoofer with them. The integrator is called Bass Management.

No one can turn off the subwoofer when playing this mix because it was mixed with the delivery of this LFE channel in mind - the mix would have been different if the LFE channel hadn't been used.

The only safe treatment, for many, many reasons, of bass in a music mix is to mix the bass content to one or more of the main speakers. Your system without bass management and mine with bass management both will present this mix differently than how it was heard in the mastering facility (of course all systems will be different...but this one starts out with a handicap, which the originators probably considered an advantage), and with the inclusion of a manufactured LFE channel, there is never a chance of consistency outside the mastering facility. No LFE content gives a mix a fighting chance at consistency.

---

Again, I'm not criticizing your choice of system integration (I'm sure it sounds great). I just need to point out the facts with why this LFE content is not appropriate (as good as the mix does sound).

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post #72 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousfun View Post

The reason why the LFE channel is unneeded in music mixes is that each of the other channels is already full-range.

This is a NON-reason.

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Well then...your speakers are not full range.

How many "full range" speakers are really full range? Very friggin' few! Otherwise, there would be a much smaller market for subwoofers!

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You have every right to live with them.

I do and I love them. Do you have "full range" speakers that have a flat frequency response down to 20 Hz and below? I don't know of ANY speakers that are truly "full range". When I use the term "full range", I use it to differentiate from sattelite/sub systems. I don't think anyone uses "full range" to literally mean perfectly flat frequency response across the audible spectrum. Even the most high-end "full range" speakers might benefit from the addition of a subwoofer.

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If you want their respective channels to be reproduced full-range, you will have to integrate the subwoofer with them. The integrator is called Bass Management.

Quite right. In my system, the "integrator" is me and "Bass Management" is proper blending of the subwoofer using its low-pass filter and volume control (which I have done using a spectrum analyzer and pink tones). This approach lends to the perfect mains/sub blend on probably 90% of commercial discs AND this particular DSOTM DVD-A - no digital signal processing needed - pure, 100% analog stream from player through preamp through amp to speakers - BLISS!)

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No one can turn off the subwoofer when playing this mix because it was mixed with the delivery of this LFE channel in mind - the mix would have been different if the LFE channel hadn't been used.

Oh really now. Sounds like you know something that I don't! As a matter of fact, the mains are straight on, full, unaltered transfers from the original quad master tape. There is no "mix" (beyond the original). The LFE is provided simply to fill out the bottom end that virtually no "full range" speaker can truly offer.

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The only safe treatment, for many, many reasons, of bass in a music mix is to mix the bass content to one or more of the main speakers. Your system without bass management and mine with bass management both will present this mix differently than how it was heard in the mastering facility (of course all systems will be different...but this one starts out with a handicap, which the originators probably considered an advantage), and with the inclusion of a manufactured LFE channel, there is never a chance of consistency outside the mastering facility. No LFE content gives a mix a fighting chance at consistency.

Dude, you are way, way, WAY overanalyzing this and on top of that your assumptions are completely wrong. This disc is simply a 4.0 transfer from the original quadraphonic master tape. All four channels are complete, unaltered, from the 1973 mix LONG before subwoofers were a consideration, ergo the term QUADRAPHONIC and not 4.1 or some variation. The LFE channel is completely redundant to the extent that your main speakers are really, truly full range, but in most cases the LFE will allow people with real world full range speakers to blend in the missing very bottom end. Additionally, it allow boneheads like me, who abhor any additional and/or unnecessary DSP, to have an attractive option.

And you know, it really is about having that option. If there were no LFE, I would have no option other than DSP-based bass management. For people like you who demand the DSP-based management, you have the option as well: disconnect the LFE input from your pre-amp! It's the old tea too strong vs. tea too weak dilemma. It is easier to water down the tea than it is to strengthen it, so it makes sense to produce stronger tea to most easily satisfy both camps. The same is true with this particular LFE channel.

Thus, this particular title would be handicapped if it did NOT have an LFE!

I applaud the authors of this disc for their EXCELLENT choice in the LFE presentation. It really does offer the widest range of choices...

...even if it does mean you have to water down your tea.
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post #73 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Beyond View Post

...

How many "full range" speakers are really full range? Very friggin' few! Otherwise, there would be a much smaller market for subwoofers!

...

Many. Dynaudio, Quested, and PMC are a start.

Our full-range of hearing is 20 Hz to 20k Hz, and CD, DVD-A, and most media are designed to carry that range. A speaker isn't full-range unless it covers this (or nearly this).

I said nothing about flat.

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Originally Posted by Captain Beyond View Post

...

Quite right. In my system, the "integrator" is me and "Bass Management" is proper blending of the subwoofer using its low-pass filter and volume control (which I have done using a spectrum analyzer and pink tones). This approach lends to the perfect mains/sub blend on probably 90% of commercial discs AND this particular DSOTM DVD-A - no digital signal processing needed - pure, 100% analog stream from player through preamp through amp to speakers - BLISS!)

My speaker system is full-range. My main speakers are not. They are properly integrated with the subwoofer: all channels are summed to the subwoofer with an appropriate low-pass filter, and all mains are all high-passed at their -3 dB point (all this with no DSP, all analog, probably the best thing in my audio chain!), and calibrated with a time-based measurement system.

Quote:


As a matter of fact, the mains are straight on, full, unaltered transfers from the original quad master tape. There is no "mix" (beyond the original). The LFE is provided simply to fill out the bottom end that virtually no "full range" speaker can truly offer.

Dude, you are way, way, WAY overanalyzing this and on top of that your assumptions are completely wrong. This disc is simply a 4.0 transfer from the original quadraphonic master tape. All four channels are complete, unaltered, from the 1973 mix LONG before subwoofers were a consideration, ergo the term QUADRAPHONIC and not 4.1 or some variation. The LFE channel is completely redundant to the extent that your main speakers are really, truly full range, but in most cases the LFE will allow people with real world full range speakers to blend in the missing very bottom end. Additionally, it allow boneheads like me, who abhor any type of DSP, to have an attractive option.

And you know, it really is about having that option. If there were no LFE, I would have no option other than DSP-based bass management. For people like you who demand the DSP-based management, you have the option as well: disconnect the LFE input from your pre-amp! It's the old tea too strong vs. tea too weak dilemma. It is easier to water down the tea than it is to strengthen it, so it makes sense to produce stronger tea to most easily satisfy both camps. The same is true with this particular LFE channel.
...


mmmmmmmmmm Trust me, it's a mix when they add a faux .1 channel to an existing mix. This would mean all channels are re-balanced to acommodate the ill-advised LFE tack-on. This additional channel, that Mr. Parsons couldn't have imagined when he did the Quad mix, by definition alters the mix.

And it alters the way we have to play this mix in our living rooms. An LFE channel which duplicates content in the mains, especially in a situation like yours where (as I can best understand from your post) you have no high-pass filter on your mains, these common sounds are adding in unpredictable ways because of room modes, and causing phase anomolies (I supose you have ripped the passive crossovers out of your main speakers so you could hear the tweeters and woofers with less coloration... )

Adding an LFE channel like this mix does leaves none of us with the ability to hear it properly. Delivering the Quad mix un-altered gives all of us the choice to implement our speaker system in our own way, according to our needs and taste. This discussion, while thread-drift to some extent, is on-topic since we all have different approches to our systems and we will each hear this differently because of an unfortunate choice on the part of the distributor.

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post #74 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 06:16 PM
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So, um, like... you don't know how to disconnect the LFE channel from your pre-amp?
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post #75 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seriousfun View Post

Mmmmmmmmmmm Trust me, it's a mix when they add a faux .1 channel to an existing mix.

Ah, semantics. The disc offers two mixes, if you want to get techincal. 4.0 (unaltered) and 4.1 (altered). Disconnect the LFE channel from your preamp, set all speakers to large, and turn off bass management to get the "unaltered" quadraphonic 4.0 mix.


Quote:


This would mean all channels are re-balanced to acommodate the ill-advised LFE tack-on.

Gotta love those unfounded assumptions and leading qualifiers.


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This additional channel, that Mr. Parsons couldn't have imagined when he did the Quad mix, by definition alters the mix.

The original quad mix remains unaltered. Refer to first comment in this reply.


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And it alters the way we have to play this mix in our living rooms.

Of course it does. If we continue to unwind your logic, the only way to listen to this legitimately is to go back to 1973 and sit in Parson's mixing chair, listening to the exact equipment he monitored the mix on. Come on!


Quote:


An LFE channel which duplicates content in the mains, especially in a situation like yours where (as I can best understand from your post)

The only "duplication" is where low frequency response of my mains cross over the low-pass setting of my subwoofer (between 36 Hz and 40 Hz, if you're really curious).


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you have no high-pass filter on your mains, these common sounds are adding in unpredictable ways

Have you even listened to the sub channel through a "full range" speaker? Check it out and get back to me on your statement. Not that it would matter considering the low-pass filter... and the fact that I'm using NO BASS MANAGEMENT!


Quote:


because of room modes, and causing phase anomolies (I supose you have ripped the passive crossovers out of your main speakers so you could hear the tweeters and woofers with less coloration... )

Yer a funny guy. I think I mentioned a spectrum analyzer...
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post #76 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Beyond View Post

So, um, like... you don't know how to disconnect the LFE channel from your pre-amp?

Disconnecting the sub is definitely not the solution, especially for someone who prefers to listen to their music with a subwoofer. Bass management is the solution. Faux LFE tracks are not.

None of my redbook CDs have a subwoofer track, do they? Correct me if I'm wrong, but an LFE track was not recorded when DSOTM was recorded, was it?

If you understand bass management you understand what's wrong with the added LFE channel (as it's described in this thread, anyway). And that's all that really needs to be said.

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post #77 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Disconnecting the sub is definitely not the solution, especially for someone who prefers to listen to their music with a subwoofer. Bass management is the solution. Faux LFE tracks are not.

None of my redbook CDs have a subwoofer track, do they? Correct me if I'm wrong, but an LFE track was not recorded when DSOTM was recorded, was it?

If you understand bass management you understand what's wrong with the added LFE channel (as it's described in this thread, ahyway). And that's all that really needs to be said.

[sigh]

I did not mean disconnect your subwoofer, I meant disconnect the LFE input from the pre-amp. I should have been more specific.

I mean, your DVD-A player has six analog outputs: the mains, center and LFE. If you remove the LFE connection between the DVD-A player and the pre-amp, the reciever will "see" only four channels, and then your bass managment can work its wild and wooley magic.

But then, this is not how the original mix was meant to be heard, right? I mean, we gots to get rid of that there subwoofer since it wasn't invented way back in 1973. No prob, just turn off bass management and set all speakers to large.

The bottom line is that this disc can be enjoyed in a variety of ways:

- 4.1 with bass management
- 4.1 without bass management
- 4.0 with bass management
- 4.0 without bass management

Granted, the "4.0" options requires some equipment reconfiguration, but it is possible. That's all I'm sayin'!
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post #78 of 1390 Old 03-27-2006, 08:16 PM
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I gave one to a dealer/friend of mine and tried it on a Denon 955S (2910) with an AVM30 and for some reason just the Dolby Digital and DTS options showed up. We checked all the settings in the DVD player but couldnt figure it out...any ideas?

Listened to a couple tracks in DTS anyways, sounds pretty sweet with Paradigm Signatures.
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post #79 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Seriousfun wrote:-

>> This would mean all channels are re-balanced to acommodate the ill-advised LFE tack-on. <<

Look -- I know for a fact that statement is totally wrong. Trust me. i.e. The main four channels are NOT bass-filtered in any way!

b.t.w., an Outlaw ICBM will solve your 'dilemma' by discarding (or supressing) the incoming LFE to the preamp, and then applying analog BM just on the four main channels. But I still think that's unneccessary with this particular disc. It sounds fine to me. And I do like the extra low-end grunt in the 20Hz region that the LFE provides.

I note you mentioned PMC speakers. Now, my mains (with dual-woofers each) are made by TDL -- a now deceased English company -- and are based on the same "transmission-line" technology as used by PMC. But even these don't go anywhere near as low as my REL Storm 5 sub (15Hz in-room response!).
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post #80 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

If you understand bass management you understand what's wrong with the added LFE channel (as it's described in this thread, anyway). And that's all that really needs to be said.


"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #81 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 08:19 AM
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If you understand that there is often absolutley no need for bass management you understand what's NOT wrong with the added LFE channel (as it's described in this thread, anyway). And that's all that really needs to be said.

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post #82 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Beyond View Post

If you understand that there is often absolutley no need for bass management you understand what's NOT wrong with the added LFE channel (as it's described in this thread, anyway). And that's all that really needs to be said.


As described in the thread, the LFE track is redundant bass information, Captain. Do you understand that? The low-end has been, admittedly, purposefully bloated. It's not really defensible.

It is basically a recording that mimics what your system would do if you bass managed it with an LFE+Main or Subwoofer PLUS setting. It cannot be UNbass-managed away; not with any conventional setup. Most people bass-manage their hirez at their player. Very few people can bass manage their analog multichannel inputs.

How do you playback this recording, btw? How do you normally playback your hirez?

The LFE+Main or Subwoofer PLUS setting is shunned by most, but for those poor souls who actually have their system setup with this setting already, when they listen to this recording, they'll get doubly redundant bass!

And for the fellow who has no subwoofer and has no hirez player, yet wants to listen to the DD tracks, and has his receiver set up with NO sub, he'll now be sending the redundant bass info to his mains. Probably not a good idea.

We can break down all the bass-managed or unbass-managed scenarios you get when you playback with this recording, if you'd like. The bottom line is that you can't easily undo what's been done to it.

If "they" had simply left the recording well-enough alone this would all be moot.

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post #83 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

I gave one to a dealer/friend of mine and tried it on a Denon 955S (2910) with an AVM30 and for some reason just the Dolby Digital and DTS options showed up. We checked all the settings in the DVD player but couldnt figure it out...any ideas?

Listened to a couple tracks in DTS anyways, sounds pretty sweet with Paradigm Signatures.

In the Setup mode, on the last category, is it set to "Video" or "Audio"? If set to Video, you won't see the option for MLP, and it will only show DTS and DD. You need to set it to "Audio" to show MLP.
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post #84 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

As described in the thread, the LFE track is redundant bass information, Captain. Do you understand that? The low-end has been, admittedly, purposefully bloated. It's not really defensible.

There is no bloat if you don't use bass management. It is bass management will cause "bloat", not the simple inclusion of an LFE! And the information is redundant only to the extent that there is a crossover between LF performance of mains and subwoofer, which can easily be managed through the subwoofers controls (that is what they are there for). Hmm, I'm easily defending it...
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post #85 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Captain Beyond View Post

There is no bloat if you don't use bass management. It is bass management will cause "bloat", not the simple inclusion of an LFE! And the information is redundant only to the extent that there is a crossover between LF performance of mains and subwoofer, which can easily be managed through the subwoofers controls (that is what they are there for). Hmm, I'm easily defending it...

Yes there is "bloat", Captain. C'mon, it's in the recording, bass-managed or not. Granted, we're going on what's posted here, but as described, the LFE track is neither crossed-over nor blended properly with the bass in the other channels. It is simply added redundant bass info below a certain crossover point.

This recording MUST be UNbass-managed to playback properly with a subwoofer, whether using a LARGE or SMALL speaker setting.

And very few people have a system capable of UNbassmanaging this recording properly.

Out of curiosity, how do you playback this recording? And is that any different than the way you listen to your other hirez recordings? How do you listen to redbook CDs?

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #86 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

And very few people have a system capable of UNbassmanaging this recording properly.

A-ha! By George, I think you've got it! This DVD-A is not catering to the lowest common denominator but to those with capable systems! Imagine that! Bass management is and always has been a band-aid solution for sattelite/sub systems and "full range" speakers with less than desirable performance.

BUT, as I keep saying, all users CAN play this back correctly with a little tweaking. And really, for those that are going to experience "bass bloat", do you think they will even realize it? If they realize it, will they care? Anyone who cares will be able to do something about it.

Look, there is a HUGE amount of variance in LFE channel delivery. At this stage in the game I think it is pointless to expect there to be anything resembling standardization. Virtually every aspect of surround-sound music production is frought with variablity. I've learned to live with it and appreciate those times when everything seems to come together. In this case (the DSOTM DVD-A) I believe it is one of those times when everything has come together. But that's just me and my own subjective interpretation based on my system and how I choose to configure it. Your mileage may vary. But should we really fault the author for not catering to the lowest common denominator?


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Out of curiosity, how do you playback this recording?

I've pretty much laid this out already in my earlier posts.
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post #87 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Beyond View Post

A-ha! By George, I think you've got it! This DVD-A is not catering to the lowest common denominator but to those with capable systems! Imagine that! Bass management is and always has been a band-aid solution for sattelite/sub systems and "full range" speakers with less than desirable performance.

BUT, as I keep saying, all users CAN play this back correctly with a little tweaking. And really, for those that are going to experience "bass bloat", do you think they will even realize it? If they realize it, will they care? Anyone who cares will be able to do something about it.

Look, there is a HUGE amount of variance in LFE channel delivery. At this stage in the game I think it is pointless to expect there to be anything resembling standardization. Virtually every aspect of surround-sound music production is frought with variablity. I've learned to live with it and appreciate those times when everything seems to come together. In this case (the DSOTM DVD-A) I believe it is one of those times when everything has come together. But that's just me and my own subjective interpretation based on my system and how I choose to configure it. Your mileage may vary. But should we really fault the author for not catering to the lowest common denominator?


I've pretty much laid this out already in my earlier posts.

I ask about your setup because the way you're describing it, you ARE listening to the recording the way it was intended to be heard; with bloated bass.

Please, if you could be more specific about your setup, I could perhaps see the light. How do you normally listen to hirez discs? Redbook CDs? This DSOTM mix? Explain it to me.

Basically, your bass management scheme doesn't matter; the recording is flawed out of the gate. The LFE track contains bass information that is already present, in full-measure, in the other 4 channels. There is no way around that.

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post #88 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 11:25 AM
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I don't know why some people are complaining about the LFE channel on this title. I am thankful for it and I think it sounds fantastic! I do not utilize bass management or any other digital signal processing that will muck with the signal. In my opinion, BM and DSP can be bypassed entirely with proper speaker selection, placement and subwoofer blending.

My speakers are full range, but they certainly don't dip down to the low levels offered by my subwoofer. As a 4.0 title, with four full range channels on four full range speakers, there is still missing bass information! In fact, I have never heard Roger Water's bass sound so good on DSOTM as it does on this DVD-A (well, his bass sounds pretty darn good on the SACD as well).

Someone mentioned before that there is no LFE mixing approach that will work for all systems/configurations. The LFE channel, along with the center channel, have always been the ugly stepchildren of surround mixing: what the heck do you do with them? No matter what you do, someone is bound to complain.

A finely crafted LFE targeting systems that are properly configured is the best way to go, IMHO, and this DVD-A hits a home run as far as I'm concerned! For those that don't like the LFE: DISCCONECT THE LFE CHANNEL OR TURN YOUR FRIGGIN' SUBWOOFER OFF!!!

If you run your speakers as LARGE, that's fine. But then you don't want an LFE channel at all. If you like an LFE+Main type setting, where the subwoofer receives and reinforces some of the bass info that is also sent to the LARGE fronts, that's your listening preference, but the engineer shouldn't enginneer a recording to sound that way, which is exactly what the recording represents.

The LFE approach that would have worked best here would have been to have left it out completely. Then, if someone wants to playback the recording with LARGE speakers and still have a subwoofer channel in the mix, most players and receiver/pre/pros have a setting to accomodate this; the LFE+Main or Subwoofer PLUS setting. If someone wanted to playback the recording with a SMALL speaker setting, an LFE-less recording would be bass managed perfectly correctly by their player or receiver/pre/pro.

As it stands now, the recording is flat-out INCORRECT. Very few people will understand how to, much less be able to, or even care to, listen to it properly. They'll think that, as evidenced here, that the added "oomph" sounds good. The reality is it's just that; added "oomph". Your speakers' natural roll-off notwithstanding, I seriously doubt that you are listening to it, Captain, without the bloated bass that is most definitely included in the mix. Although I am open to hearing exactly how you decode and play it back.

That your feelings toward bass management, in general, seem negative, yet you seem to be able to support the sort of "gross" manipulation that was done to this recording, is contradictory.

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post #89 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 11:38 AM
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I applaud the authors of this disc for their EXCELLENT choice in the LFE presentation. It really does offer the widest range of choices...

It offers NO CHOICES. You get bloated, duplicate bass in the LFE channel.

If you truly have full-range front speakers (who does?), then the LFE track will definitely be redundant. What you seem to be arguing is that no speakers are truly full-range and that what this added LFE track does is take over the low-end where most full-range speakers will naturally be rolling off anyway. Depending upon your speakers, this may indeed be true. But mixing music this way is usually NOT how this is achieved. This manipulation is best left to the end-user. Most of our player and/or receiver/pre/pros have a setting which will allow duplicate bass information below a certain crossover to be directed to the subwoofer as well as the mains that are already set to LARGE; an LFE+Main or SubwooferPLUS setting. Some people DO indeed prefer to listen to their music this way, with the subwoofer reinforcing the LARGE mains, and that's fine if that's your preference. But mixing a recording this way is incorrect.

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post #90 of 1390 Old 03-28-2006, 11:39 AM
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[sigh]

I give up. The Bass Management Militia has spoken.

I will close by saying that I completely and utterly disagree in both factual and subjective context to virtually everything you (Miles Davis and Serious Fun) have to say on the topic of bass management.

As for the rest of you folks, please ignore all this LFE nonsense and enjoy the friggin' music!
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