Velodyne SPL 1200R or Rel R 305 for use in my... - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 05-03-2008, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Jet Jockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
HT.

It's important for the sub(s) to play well for music too. My room is just under 12 feet wide by ~17 feet long and about 7.5 feet high. I'm planing on using two subwoofers in the room. The REL R 305 in a 10 inch sub while the Velodyne is a 12 inch sub.

TIA
Jet Jockey is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 05-03-2008, 11:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
My Velodyne HGS 10 recently died and I replaced it with the REL R 305. The HGS was a great sub and I plan on fixing it for HT duty but the REL is much more natural sounding with music. My room is a little larger than yours and the 305 does a great job. If you are looking for a sub that sounds great with bass string instruments and can faithfully reproduce percussion instruments then consider the REL. If you prefer louder volumes and low freq. extension then look at the Velodyne. The SPL models are similar in design to the HGS without the servo feedback.

My HGS 10 will play louder and on paper should go lower than the REL but it is not as musically satisfying. Although their specs suggest otherwise, the REL seems to go lower, in fact there were many tracks where bass guitar notes were noticeable through the REL and non-existant with the HGS. The initial attack and decay is better with the REL. The HGS had more impact at louder levels but lacked the speed and agility that the REL has. I would have loved to have had twice the budget for a sub but I had just upgraded my electronics and speakers so I had to stay around $1500 as I was unable to plan for it like the other gear. I listened to a number of subs around it's price and thought the REL had the best sound and build quality for the money.
Steve. is offline  
post #3 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Jet Jockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks Steve for your input.

Can you comment on this rather poor review.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...l-r-305-a.html

All other reviews are positive so far but this one (in the link) as me scared. Also the Velodyne SPL 1200R did not do that good with them in another review which is the other sub I'm looking at.

TIA
Jet Jockey is offline  
post #4 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 08:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mojomike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 6,966
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Personally, shelling out big bucks for a product that tests so poorly and has such limtations like the Rel is ridiculous. Think about it: It's got so little useable output below 30hz and the response starts to drop off significantly over 60hz. It's really only good for about one octave. If I were looking toward a pair of nice small sealed subs, I'd look at the SVS SB12 Plus, the Martin Logans, or the ACI's. If funds are not limited, a pair of JL f112's would be very sweet.
mojomike is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Jet Jockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Personally, shelling out big bucks for a product that tests so poorly and has such limtations like the Rel is ridiculous. Think about it: It's got so little useable output below 30hz and the response starts to drop off significantly over 60hz. It's really only good for about one octave. If I were looking toward a pair of nice small sealed subs, I'd look at the SVS SB12 Plus, the Martin Logans, or the ACI's. If funds are not limited, a pair of JL f112's would be very sweet.

But that's only one test. What if that unit was defective? Testing equipment with test gear is fine but listening to it in a proper room with actual music or in a movie are two different things.

I have read and seen too many things over the years for me just to believe at looking at numbers to judge things. Why do CD players sound differently yet they read the same source and on paper they have almost identical specs. Same thing can be said of the wiring in a system ect.

Power amps all sound different yet some have the same specs, why?
BTW, you can say the same things about cars. Simply testing them with test gear doesn't actually give you the complete picture. I could go on here but I don't want to rely on only one review with rather negative results that didn't even listen to the darn sub in a proper system with a proper set up.

Like Steve, many reviews written about this sub are nothing short of very positive. I can't believe they are way out in left field on this sub.

Maybe the best solution is to test both the Velodyne SPL 1200R and the REL R 305 in my room and decide afterwards.

Then of course I could always stop beating around the buss and buy a Wilson Watch Dog and be done with it! I wonder if it will fit between my mains and centre channel. Besides I really wanted a dual or stereo sub set up. I can't afford two Watch Dogs Too bad!
Jet Jockey is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 09:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mojomike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 6,966
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
You make some valid points, but there are also products that do very well subjectively and test well. To me it doesn't hurt to have what you think you hear also confirmed by what the numbers and charts say. If nothing else, it tells your own audio processor inside your head is not too far offbase. When it comes to professional subjective reviews of audio equipment, although I love reading them, I take them all with grain of salt. Think about it: How many bad professional equipment reviews have you ever read? The fact is that the bad ones rarely make it to print. Let's be real: The professional reviewers cannot bite the hand that feed them. That's just business.

Typically, Illka's tests have proven to be pretty accurate.

Your "best solution" if you can do it truly is the best way to see first hand what works best for you.
mojomike is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 09:53 AM
Member
 
Sickofthehype's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Hamshire
Posts: 85
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
.

Thanks,

Ron
Sickofthehype is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 10:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
spyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Jockey View Post

But that's only one test. What if that unit was defective? Testing equipment with test gear is fine but listening to it in a proper room with actual music or in a movie are two different things.

I have read and seen too many things over the years for me just to believe at looking at numbers to judge things. Why do CD players sound differently yet they read the same source and on paper they have almost identical specs. Same thing can be said of the wiring in a system ect.

Power amps all sound different yet some have the same specs, why?
BTW, you can say the same things about cars. Simply testing them with test gear doesn't actually give you the complete picture. I could go on here but I don't want to rely on only one review with rather negative results that didn't even listen to the darn sub in a proper system with a proper set up.

Like Steve, many reviews written about this sub are nothing short of very positive. I can't believe they are way out in left field on this sub.

Maybe the best solution is to test both the Velodyne SPL 1200R and the REL R 305 in my room and decide afterwards.

Then of course I could always stop beating around the buss and buy a Wilson Watch Dog and be done with it! I wonder if it will fit between my mains and centre channel. Besides I really wanted a dual or stereo sub set up. I can't afford two Watch Dogs Too bad!


Ilkka tested the REL almost 2 years ago. If the unit that Ilkka tested was defective, the honchos at REL should have been all over these test results.

Tom Nousaine, who has professionally tested more than 250 subwoofers received a defective JL Audio F112. When JL Audio executives saw the results, they contacted Tom Nousaine who confirmed that the unit in question had been shipped multiple times and had sustained some damage.

TN tested the REL 305 in the October 2006 issue of Sound & Vision. It is a little hard to compare the results because TN tests indoors in his 7,500 cubic foot room.

Still, TN says the REL 305 "...lacks dynamic capability and cannot produce 25Hz without 20% distortion."

TN had to rate the 305 from 32-62 Hz, unlike most of the other subs he has tested due to the very high amount of distortion below 32 Hz. Most ot the other subs are rated from 25Hz-62Hz.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/spe...er-system.html

Scroll down to see the subwoofer comments.

Here is the link to all ~250 sub tests by Tom Nousaine.

http://home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

It looks like the Velodyne SPL-1200R is the better choice. You may very well like the Velodyne, especially if you want deeper response.

But if funds are not a problem, a pair of JL Audio F112 will be truly superior.
spyboy is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Jet Jockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Ilkka tested the REL almost 2 years ago. If the unit that Ilkka tested was defective, the honchos at REL should have been all over these test results.

Tom Nousaine, who has professionally tested more than 250 subwoofers received a defective JL Audio F112. When JL Audio executives saw the results, they contacted Tom Nousaine who confirmed that the unit in question had been shipped multiple times and had sustained some damage.

TN tested the REL 305 in the October 2006 issue of Sound & Vision. It is a little hard to compare the results because TN tests indoors in his 7,500 cubic foot room.

Still, TN says the REL 305 "...lacks dynamic capability and cannot produce 25Hz without 20% distortion."

TN had to rate the 305 from 32-62 Hz, unlike most of the other subs he has tested due to the very high amount of distortion below 32 Hz. Most ot the other subs are rated from 25Hz-62Hz.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/spe...er-system.html

Scroll down to see the subwoofer comments.

Here is the link to all ~250 sub tests by Tom Nousaine.

http://home.comcast.net/frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

It looks like the Velodyne SPL-1200R is the better choice. You may very well like the Velodyne, especially if you want deeper response.

But if funds are not a problem, a pair of JL Audio F112 will be truly superior.

Thanks for the links. BTW the second one doesn't work so I couldn't see the reports on the 250 subs.

He did his test in a large room, 7500 cu/ft. My room is only 1500 cu/ft and i intend to use two subs to get the impact I want.

Do you think two versus the one sub in my room and the fact that my room is five (5) times smaller won't make a difference?

I can understand that the REL is perhaps not the best sub for a HT set up but for music it sure seems most like it and prefer it to some subs that can move a home's foundations.

Again maybe because I will use two subs in a small room the sound will be pretty good for movies and excellent for music?

What's your opinion on a Wilson Watch Dog?
Jet Jockey is offline  
post #10 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mojomike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 6,966
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
What leads you to believe that the $10,000 Wilson will sound better than, let's say, a pair of f112's or 113's? Are you basing that on price and the high-end Wilson name or do you have some other sort of info?
mojomike is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Jet Jockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

What leads you to believe that the $10,000 Wilson will sound better than, let's say, a pair of f112's or 113's? Are you basing that on price and the high-end Wilson name or do you have some other sort of info?

Well I have listened to a Wilson set up with Watt Puppy 8s and two Watch Dogs in action and let me tell you what... It sounded incredible!

I have also heard them in other set ups and they sounded great. I may be able to get my hands on one used Watch Dog and so that's why I threw the question out there. I'm not even sure I can make it fit in my room so i need to talk to my audio shop about it.

I may also take a look at the JL f112 sub. Perhaps at first I'll just get one and later get a second one (if needed).
Jet Jockey is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 01:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mojomike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 6,966
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
I'd bet one (or two) JL's would make you very happy.
mojomike is offline  
post #13 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 01:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
spyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 7,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Jockey View Post

Thanks for the links. BTW the second one doesn't work so I couldn't see the reports on the 250 subs.

He did his test in a large room, 7500 cu/ft. My room is only 1500 cu/ft and i intend to use two subs to get the impact I want.

Do you think two versus the one sub in my room and the fact that my room is five (5) times smaller won't make a difference?

I can understand that the REL is perhaps not the best sub for a HT set up but for music it sure seems most like it and prefer it to some subs that can move a home's foundations.

Again maybe because I will use two subs in a small room the sound will be pretty good for movies and excellent for music?

What's your opinion on a Wilson Watch Dog?

I fixed the link to the tests of ~250 subwoofers.

http://home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

In my humble opinion the Wilson Watch Dog is way way overpriced for what you get. Here is a link to a test of the Watch Dog along with 11 other high-end subs.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/feature...ay/index2.html

The Watch Dog had just about the lowest output from 63Hz to 80Hz. This region is important for music, IMHO.

This is a classic test. It includes the Genelec HTS6 that holds the record for output (from 32 to 62 Hz), among commerically available subs tested by Tom Nousaine. The bottom end champ is the $1,600 Epik Conquest that is as strong as 5 Genelec HTS6's at 16Hz.

Please scroll down and read the entire 3 part test by clicking on "Introduction"

In the section called "And the Award Goes To", you will see that the Velodyne DD-18 was the one to take home and live with. The JL Audio F112 and F113 were not available at the time of this test. The F112 is even more powerful than the DD-18 and also has built-in EQ (highly recommended).

In your situation, if you can swing it, two Velodyne DD-15's or, better yet a pair of JL Audio F112's, should put a huge smile on your face. For a couple thousand less, a pair of Velodyne SPL-1200R sounds like a winner for you.
spyboy is offline  
post #14 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 01:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mojomike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 6,966
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I fixed the link to the tests of ~250 subwoofers.

http://home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

In my humble opinion the Wilson Watch Dog is way way overpriced for what you get. Here is a link to a test of the Watch Dog along with 11 other high-end subs.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/feature...ay/index2.html

The Watch Dog had just about the lowest output from 63Hz to 80Hz. This region is important for music, IMHO.

This is a classic test. It includes the Genelec HTS6 that holds the record for output (from 32 to 62 Hz), among commerically available subs tested by Tom Nousaine. The bottom end champ is the $1,600 Epik Conquest that is as strong as 5 Genelec HTS6's at 16Hz.

Please scroll down and read the entire 3 part test by clicking on "Introduction"

In the section called "And the Award Goes To", you will see that the Velodyne DD-18 was the one to take home and live with. The JL Audio F112 and F113 were not available at the time of this test. The F112 is even more powerful than the DD-18 and also has built-in EQ (highly recommended).

In your situation, if you can swing it, two Velodyne DD-15's or, better yet a pair of JL Audio F112's, should put a huge smile on your face. For a couple thousand less, a pair of Velodyne SPL-1200R sounds like a winner for you.

Good points. If we were going to get into a comparison between subs as large as the Wilson, there is a certain extensively tested $1600 sub which I'd be willing to compare.
mojomike is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 05:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
kwkshift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phx, Az
Posts: 800
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I have used a R505 before and I loved it for music. Sure, they don't have the wrecking-ball output for movies like some of the other subs on the market, but those don't play music as well as the REL's.

Since you're going to using 2 subs and it's a smaller room, I think they will suit you fine and you'll be very happy.

Or, you could do just one REL B1 for the same money and you have the best of both worlds. The B Series feature 2 Speakon inputs rather than just 1 like on the R and T Series. They also ahve EQ's to really help you dial them in.
kwkshift is offline  
post #16 of 20 Old 05-04-2008, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
Jet Jockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift View Post

I have used a R505 before and I loved it for music. Sure, they don't have the wrecking-ball output for movies like some of the other subs on the market, but those don't play music as well as the REL's.

Since you're going to using 2 subs and it's a smaller room, I think they will suit you fine and you'll be very happy.

Or, you could do just one REL B1 for the same money and you have the best of both worlds. The B Series feature 2 Speakon inputs rather than just 1 like on the R and T Series. They also ahve EQ's to really help you dial them in.


Thank you for your input it reassures me on the RELs. Glad to hear someone which experienced a REL sub. I just need to find out what my priority is; music or movies? It's a fine line to balance.

However two things are different from your use and mine. First, the 505 is bigger and more powerful. Maybe two R305s can accomplish the same task. Two, I have Meridian speakers (and electronics) so I won't be able to use the Speakon inputs.

I'm going to talk to my audio shop tomorrow and see how we are going to proceed. Ideally I'd like to test the Velodynes, the RELs and the JL audio subs in a shoot out in my HT. Heck I may ask them to bring the Watch Dog too!

BTW what sub are you using now?

Thanks again.
Jet Jockey is offline  
post #17 of 20 Old 05-05-2008, 07:55 AM
Advanced Member
 
kwkshift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Phx, Az
Posts: 800
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
2 R305's will have more amplifier power and more cone area than one R505. That, coupled with a smaller room than what I used mine in will definately change the performance of these subs.

I was just demoing the REL against my Earthquake MKV15. The Earthquake is bombastic for movies, but for music it's just too heavy-handed. So, I'm going back to a REL, more than likely a B3 or if I go with 2 smaller units, it will be 2 R Series. IMO they strike a great balance for both movies and music.
kwkshift is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old 05-05-2008, 05:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I agree with kwkshift, the RELs are great with music. I don't really let a review steer me toward or away from a product, I listen to it and let my ears decide. Sure I read all the reviews I could find about the REL and some other subs. I did see several reviews that criticised the R-305 even calling it a distortion machine but most of the material I play doesn't go below 25 Hz. At the end of the day it was how it sounded with my speakers and how great bass string and percussion instruments sound through this sub. Maybe I'm just not as critical of this sub because I use a SMS-1 to set lowpass freq. and slope.

I am going to fix my Velodyne and use it when I merge 2 CH with surround in the future. I plan on getting a receiver to drive my center, surrounds, and the Velodyne with the L and R channels driving my 2 CH rig's Home Theater bypass. With this set up I'll have the REL connected to the stereo pre-outs of my pre and the Velodyne driven by the .1 channel of the receiver. Hopefully this arrangement will give me the best of both worlds with music and movies.
Steve. is offline  
post #19 of 20 Old 05-13-2008, 05:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mpedris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 1,359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

... The F112 is even more powerful than the DD-18 and also has built-in EQ (highly recommended) ...


Did you mean to say that f113 is more powerful than DD-18? Because from what I've heard, the Velo counterpart for f112 is the DD-15.

Or are you seriously saying that a sub with a 12" driver can actually surpass , let alone match, the performance of a sub with an 18" driver??

Manendra

"Some folks hate the whites who hate the blacks
who hate the Klan
Most of us hate anything that
we don't understand"

- Kris Kristofferson.
mpedris is offline  
post #20 of 20 Old 05-13-2008, 03:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
Steve.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cape Cod
Posts: 576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
[quote=kwkshift;13794468]I have used a R505 before and I loved it for music. Sure, they don't have the wrecking-ball output for movies like some of the other subs on the market, but those don't play music as well as the
REL's.

Since you're going to using 2 subs and it's a smaller room, I think they will suit you fine and you'll be very happy.



I couldn't have said it better myself. I chose the REL R305 based on how it augmented my monitors, which I run full range. Perhaps I'm not as critical because I use my Velodyne SMS-1 to drive the REL via it's LFE input. This arrangement allows me to choose the low pass freq. and slope to my liking.
I should also note that the REL in my room is flat between 20 and 25 Hz, with a peak between 30 and 40. The REL requires less EQ than the HGS 10 it replaced although on paper the HGS was "better". They were both in exactly the same position.

I usually do not take most reviews seriously, I know magazines aren't going to berate their advertiser's product. However I did read the reviews in question and that's why I listened to a number of subs when looking to replace my Velodyne. "20% distortion", "no usable output below 25 Hz", "distortion generator", whatever, all I know is that it sounded great with music. In a 2 channel system that's 80% music that's all that matters to me and the "cons" were of little consequence. It may not knock pictures off the wall but it sounds great with the two channel track of a DVD.
Steve. is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off