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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Best sub EQ under $400
penngray's Avatar penngray 10:02 AM 06-09-2008
Are you guys saying that there is really no great full range active crossover/EQing solution out there at a reasonable price?

I have been searching for this solution lately because Im building full range 3-way speakers that will have active crossovers.


BTW, any updates on the 8033?

JOHNnDENVER's Avatar JOHNnDENVER 10:43 AM 06-09-2008
The cheapest one dip / bump solution is a plate amp with built in EQ.


I have had good success with this in most rooms. Not a full featured EQ solution by any means, but pretty darn effective none the less.
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson 10:55 AM 06-09-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Are you guys saying that there is really no great full range active crossover/EQing solution out there at a reasonable price?

That depends on what you regard as reasonable. IMHO, no.
penngray's Avatar penngray 11:35 AM 06-09-2008
Quote:


That depends on what you regard as reasonable. IMHO, no.

Same price range (under $500), right now it seems my top option is the Behringer DCX2496 which I can buy for around $200 and it has a very respected following.

I just was reading this thread and I wanted more details on the above option.
Mupi's Avatar Mupi 05:39 PM 06-09-2008
I was wondering if it is possible to create the waterfall plot
uisng REW (Room EQ wizard) or any other free softwares,
from the FR plot. i.e I have the FR plot (db vs Hz) and from that
can I create the decay plot. I read that it is possible to convert the waterfall
plot to FR plot uisng fourier transformation (which is built into those free softwares). But I dont know if the inverse is true. i.e can I create the waterfall plot from the FR plot. If not, is there an easy way to create the waterfall plot and what kind of measurements I need. Looking at the REW, it seems like I need to measure the response due to an impulse but I dont know how to do that. All I have right now is the Radio Shack SPL meter.
Are there test tones that I can download to create the waterfall plot?
penngray's Avatar penngray 05:46 PM 06-09-2008
REW has the waterfall charts in it already I dont know if you can import a FR plot and create a waterfall chart. REW needs to actually have all the room measurements run with in it.


I couldnt wait any more I just ordered the Anit-mode
bsoko2's Avatar bsoko2 09:17 PM 06-09-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post

Bill, I too am interested in your results, as you know I have 3 3 T and MBM and I know you have mutiples of both. Your experience and how to deal with more than 1 sub will be interesting.

As usual thanks for blazing a trail.

Tracy

Installed Anti Mode 8033B today and WOW what a difference and I'm running two MBM-12's (one with each main with xover of 100hz), and two HSU 3.3's. It is worth the $$$$$. Make sure you follow the directions and you will have no problems. I'm running it "flat" with no "lift" and it has the WOW factor. No upgrade needed for a couple of years for this boy. My system sounds like it is new and different and it is a joy to watch movies all over again.

Bill
Archbushman's Avatar Archbushman 10:06 PM 06-09-2008
bsoko,
Do you have any room treatments? (bass traps?)
bsoko2's Avatar bsoko2 11:12 PM 06-09-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archbushman View Post

bsoko,
Do you have any room treatments? (bass traps?)

NONE! The space is over 6000 cu ft and has 2 large openings on the left side to other parts of the house.

Bill
thsmith's Avatar thsmith 08:48 AM 06-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Installed Anti Mode 8033B today and WOW what a difference and I'm running two MBM-12's (one with each main with xover of 100hz), and two HSU 3.3's. It is worth the $$$$$. Make sure you follow the directions and you will have no problems. I'm running it "flat" with no "lift" and it has the WOW factor. No upgrade needed for a couple of years for this boy. My system sounds like it is new and different and it is a joy to watch movies all over again.

Bill

Excellent news Bill. After you have had a couple of days listening could you come back with some details on the improvements you have seen.

I assume I would run an RCA cable from AVR to 8033 the y cable out of 8033 to 3 3 and MBM? 8033 and AVR would be co-located?
penngray's Avatar penngray 08:56 AM 06-10-2008
damn, you guys are getting me excited!

Im happy you are having success with it!
bakpakva's Avatar bakpakva 09:02 AM 06-10-2008
Excellent! Subjective reviews are always helpful in understanding the sound improvements, which is afterall the most important thing. As more people purchase the 8033, can we also get some before and after graphs? I would like to see what the 8033 is actually doing which is hard for me to visualize without the pretty pictures. I may have to sell my BFD and get one of these if it works as described. I am finding that in my oddly shaped room the seating (measuring) location greatly impacts the correction filters suggested by REW for the 15-200 Hz range. Having multiple measuring points available on the 8033 is a nice feature for averaging. Regardless, I like the visual feedback to know what the device is actually doing to compare with what I am hearing.
bsoko2's Avatar bsoko2 09:58 AM 06-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by thsmith View Post

Excellent news Bill. After you have had a couple of days listening could you come back with some details on the improvements you have seen.

I assume I would run an RCA cable from AVR to 8033 the y cable out of 8033 to 3 3 and MBM? 8033 and AVR would be co-located?

Correct. I did 3 other calibration spots in the seating area and as far as I can tell, it works. I also used to have terrible bass loading in the corners and that's pretty much gone now. Like I said, my area is 6000 cu ft (18W x 28L x 12H) and when I ran my system with the turbos on, my god it felt like the walls were coming down. Running now without the turbos and in MO the bass is clear as the dialouge from the center channel. Just be careful when engaging the 8033 (turn on) as you get a very loud woofer blast when the calibration starts. It is advisable to turn it down a click or two. Tried the 25 and 35 lift and it was a bit much for me. It seems to me that the 25 lift is alot like the MFW-15 that everyone is going ga-ga over. You can tell the difference when any lift is on. I prefer to run it flat and there is plenty of bass (seems like more than before due to the clarity).

Bill
a1bert's Avatar a1bert 10:45 AM 06-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I prefer to run it flat and there is plenty of bass (seems like more than before due to the clarity).

Because the response is fairly flat you can also hear the frequencies that were masked by the room mode spikes before. You can also raise the volume slightly. Both help you hear some of the content that was barely audible or not audible at all before.
David HT guy's Avatar David HT guy 10:55 AM 06-10-2008
I am trying to decide between the 8033 and a Behringer mic/BFD combo. With shipping, the price difference is about US$200. I have read this entire thread. I know that the 8033 is auto, but the setup is a one time deal. It seems like one thing the 8033 can do that the BFD does not do is the multi-room readings. Wondering if anyone can shed any other light on the differences between these two setups.
lennon_68's Avatar lennon_68 11:21 AM 06-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archbushman View Post

I'm just wondering if I would still be able to use my Audessey calibration for the rest of my speakers with the 8033? I know it's possible, but how would the 2 interact for the subwoofer? As far as I know, there isn't a way to deactivate Audessey just for the sub...so when calibrating the sub with the 8033, Audessey would not be factored into it's measurements, but when you played something with Audessey on, it will be applying it's own (all be it minor) sub correction along with the 8033's correction...I'm wondering if this will throw off the 8033 calculations? if anyone who has used both can comment, please do. Thanks, Bill

I didn't see an answer to this question, if it's there and I just missed it please disregard.

I would first run Audyssey with the subwoofer unhooked, that way it won't try to EQ the sub. Then plug in the sub and run the 8033 on it. I think this will solve what you're concerned about - I wouldn't want to be passing the sub signal through two sets of EQ's either.
bakpakva's Avatar bakpakva 12:08 PM 06-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by David HT guy View Post

I am trying to decide between the 8033 and a Behringer mic/BFD combo. With shipping, the price difference is about US$200. I have read this entire thread. I know that the 8033 is auto, but the setup is a one time deal. It seems like one thing the 8033 can do that the BFD does not do is the multi-room readings. Wondering if anyone can shed any other light on the differences between these two setups.

David,
You can take multiple readings in the room, and then use the measurement tab to 'average' the readings. Then select the 'average' result in the impulse tab to use for the filter optimization. The only drawback would be that there is no way to add weighting to the measurements. You could add your own weighting by measuring the same position a number of times to use in the average. There does seem to be a 9 measurement limit, so you could measure your primary position 5 times and then add 3 more positions. The averaging takes up one spot, so the actual total would be 8 measurements. How this well this would actually work, I do not know, but it is something I will definitely try once I determine where I want to measure.
bakpakva's Avatar bakpakva 12:45 PM 06-10-2008
I should also mention that one nice feature of the BFD is that it can hold many different filter settings. You can optimize for your primary seating as one memory setting, and use another memory setting for a room average. You can also tweak the filters if desired, and remeasure at different positions to see if your averaging is doing what you want while not affecting the primary listening position response too much.

The problem of not being able to graph the responses is that you may have a measurement position that is heavily affected by the room dimensions and it may throw the rest of the readings off. Measuring at a 'black hole' or at a resonant position shows up quite readily in REW. Not sure how you would know that using the 8033 unless you pre-measured your positions first to make sure nothing funky was going on at that spot.
TEL79's Avatar TEL79 01:25 PM 06-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by David HT guy View Post

I am trying to decide between the 8033 and a Behringer mic/BFD combo. With shipping, the price difference is about US$200. I have read this entire thread. I know that the 8033 is auto, but the setup is a one time deal. It seems like one thing the 8033 can do that the BFD does not do is the multi-room readings. Wondering if anyone can shed any other light on the differences between these two setups.

With BFD you need to convert balanced XLR to common RCAs if your equipment uses RCAs (DIYs work fine). Using ECM8000 requires XLR extra cable (it's not included with ECM). If you are going to program the BFD with REW, you need to use the MIDI (MIDI 2 USB) cable. Make sure it's included in the BFD set if you are buying it from someone. To make measurements with REW, you need to have a computer setup with full-duplex sound card. If you can get reasonable loopback measurement in REW with the sound card, it should work with ECM too. This is easy to check using 3.5mm plug to plug cable (if you have one). This is good to check before actually. When you make measurements, you should ignore infinite nulls and concentrate on the axial peaks. Axiality is easy to check by making multiple measurements (or even easier by measuring room dimensions and making the calculations).
TEL79's Avatar TEL79 01:30 PM 06-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by David HT guy View Post

I am trying to decide between the 8033 and a Behringer mic/BFD combo. With shipping, the price difference is about US$200. I have read this entire thread. I know that the 8033 is auto, but the setup is a one time deal. It seems like one thing the 8033 can do that the BFD does not do is the multi-room readings. Wondering if anyone can shed any other light on the differences between these two setups.

If you red this thread, the you already know the benefits of 8033 compared PA EQs like BFD.
TEL79's Avatar TEL79 01:36 PM 06-10-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

I didn't see an answer to this question, if it's there and I just missed it please disregard.

I would first run Audyssey with the subwoofer unhooked, that way it won't try to EQ the sub. Then plug in the sub and run the 8033 on it. I think this will solve what you're concerned about - I wouldn't want to be passing the sub signal through two sets of EQ's either.

Yes, this should work. It might also be possible to disable any Audysseys sub-EQ settings afterwards. Even if you use 8033 to correct the sub, you can still use Audysseys EQ settings for the speakers if you prefer it that way.
CT_Wiebe's Avatar CT_Wiebe 01:49 PM 06-10-2008
LAZER STRIKE & Others -- RE: the Radio Shack Sound Level meter --- The correction curves for the meter are available here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=505236. It's also available on the SVS and other sites.

Also the Rives Audio Test CD 2 has a test section that is compensated for the RS meter, without the need for applying the correction curves. It's link is here: http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/softframes.html.

TEL79 -- Thank you very much for the information on the 8033B. That sounds like a very useful product for a very reasonable price. My room is rough to equalize because of it's 13' x 26" dimensions (with a large archway to the rest of the house, about halfway down one of the 26' walls). I'm glad I ran across this thread.
pbc's Avatar pbc 06:50 PM 06-10-2008
Just reading the final page of this thread. I assume this little "wonder" doesn't eliminate "nulls", just flatten peaks like say the SMS-1 PEQ? What is the main difference between this and the SMS-1? Finally, is it a single position measurement or multi position?

Tx, sorry for all the Qs!
TEL79's Avatar TEL79 01:05 AM 06-11-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Just reading the final page of this thread. I assume this little "wonder" doesn't eliminate "nulls", just flatten peaks like say the SMS-1 PEQ? What is the main difference between this and the SMS-1? Finally, is it a single position measurement or multi position?

Tx, sorry for all the Qs!

Main difference of 8033s EQ compared to the SMS-1 is the algorithm of automatic calibration, which has very different approach that takes advantage of the new Anti-Mode technology.

In numbers, 8033 has improved frequency resolution, it has computation power to compute 3 times more parametric filters and the calibration is processed iteratively in 4 phases (which contributes a lot to the quality the results made by automatic EQ.). 8033 also has multi-point algorithm which uses smarter-than-average cost-functions. SMS-1 has some benefits like remote controller, cross-over and more options to colorize the sound with own EQ settings, but it is also more expensive.

The filters are a bit different between these two. Anti-Mode 8033 uses new Anti-Modal oscillation filters which are custom designed in z-domain. This z-domain of is virtually non-restricted for the AM filters, which means that accuracy of even a single AMF is better on average than accuracy of tunable bi-quad (Q-value, center frequency, damping, phase angle etc.). This results in less modal post-ringing, which would happen if the exact center frequencies (and anti-Q values) are not met, and flatter result in power response. In short, SMS-1 is not able to make steep enough corrections in some cases because of the sparse spectral resolution and too limited tuning parameters of PEQs.

DC-block on 8033 is tighter, so A/D D/A converter response of 8033 reaches lower limits (-3dB at 5Hz for flat setting). This means it can be used also with ultra low reproducing subs, where SMS-1 can't. For average subs this has no meaning. To get best results with SMS-1, manual tuning with computer and REW is required. This is because even SMS-1 has the ability to plot the response to TV, it is way too smoothed to be used effectively for finer tuning.

Finally the decision is up to what it is you are exactly looking for the most, cross-over with some kind of EQ abilities that can (needs) to be tuned manually, or more precise auto-EQ. The price range is also different, 8033 costing about 200$ less.
gpmbc's Avatar gpmbc 02:15 AM 06-11-2008
Just curios is the only difference between the 8033 and the 8033B cosmetic and if so any pics of the new unit?
TEL79's Avatar TEL79 05:42 AM 06-11-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Just curios is the only difference between the 8033 and the 8033B cosmetic and if so any pics of the new unit?

This is the new version in eloxed and painted aluminum finish.


Both versions are functionally the same.
CruelInventions's Avatar CruelInventions 08:54 AM 06-11-2008
Is there a distance limit on the "wider area correction" feature? Or is it simply the case that, while there is no functional distance limit and you may set up your secondary measurement as far from the original measurement as you would like, just bare in mind that the greater this distance apart, the more compromised or 'less than ideal' those two (and locations in between) corrections will be?

Also, since there is no remote control with this unit, if someone were to want to change sub output via their receiver setting to either boost or attenuate the signal after the Anti-Mode 8033 has been set up, would this throw things off balance, messing up the job the 8033 is doing? For example, on my receiver's remote, I can make adjustments to my subwoofer volume, which I sometimes utilize when playing a recording or movie with either too much or too little bass output. Utilizing this feature via my receiver remote would be more convenient than getting up to change the "Lifting EQ" presets on the Anti-Mode. But.. would doing this hamper the effectiveness of the Anti-Mode 8033?

thanks in advance.
gpmbc's Avatar gpmbc 09:18 AM 06-11-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

This is the new version in eloxed and painted aluminum finish.


Both versions are functionally the same.


Oh ok cause when you look on the site that is the same picture for the 8033 as well.
CruelInventions's Avatar CruelInventions 10:05 AM 06-11-2008
actually, if you look more closely at the photos for each, you'll see that the earlier non "B" version looks slightly less "finished". Specifically, the front and rear plates are not flush with the body of the unit, at least in the four corners. The newer "B" version front/rare plates are molded better.

But surface finish-wise, it's nearly impossible to see any difference in the photos.
TEL79's Avatar TEL79 11:12 AM 06-11-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

actually, if you look more closely at the photos for each, you'll see that the earlier non "B" version looks slightly less "finished". Specifically, the front and rear plates are not flush with the body of the unit, at least in the four corners. The newer "B" version front/rare plates are molded better.

But surface finish-wise, it's nearly impossible to see any difference in the photos.

I agree, but in the surface on 8033B is painted and smoother. The older version has more of a raw industrial aluminum profile look, meaning its surface has some micrometric "scratch lines" in the direction of the profile.
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