Best sub EQ under $400 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 08:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

No one said that problems in that range are insignificant but they do not affect the tonality of voices and low acoustic instruments nearly as much.

Precisely ! Thanks.

--Regards,
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post #182 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Now what does 8033 do to everything over 144Hz. Detete it or just pass them through?

I doubt if it will just delete it. Then I have to look for other options.

It passes it trough, but there is a low-pass bessel filter at DAC. It's not very steep, so the response can be passed up to 200Hz but not much beyond.
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post #183 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Precisely ! Thanks.

--Regards,

Again personal preference. All I care about is to get rid of the boominess in the low end. I try to address what is critical to me.
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post #184 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

No one said that problems in that range are insignificant but they do not affect the tonality of voices and low acoustic instruments nearly as much.


That is only for reflections, not modal corrections.

Like I said it is personal preference. To me the ringing at low end is more bothersome. I have tried listening to the mains set to small and the sub completely disconnected. My old yamaha receiver has a fixed crossover at 90Hz. I am not bothered by any ringing when the sub is disdonnected, if at all it exists beyond 90Hz in my room. So it is the ringing/boominess at the low end that bothers me. I use the OC 703 panels at the first reflection points on the side walls so that I dont hear the reflected sound much and this improves the soundstage. I also have the panels behind the speakers.

The bass traps in the 3 corners dont seem to be very effective in reducing the ringing at the low end. So this is where I see that 8033 might help.
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post #185 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 09:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

The bass traps in the 3 corners dont seem to be very effective in reducing the ringing at the low end. So this is where I see that 8033 might help.

How effective your bass traps are will depend on density, thickness and most importantly, placement. How thick are your panels ? Where are they placed ? Are you using an air gap ?

--Regards,
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post #186 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Again personal preference. All I care about is to get rid of the boominess in the low end. I try to address what is critical to me.

For this particular problem, using precise EQ is more effective than any reasonable acoustic treatments. The treatment gets more helpful when moving higher up in frequency.

Above the Schroder frequency EQ has different nature, as it no longer should try to make exact counter-models of the room. Instead it should be used to correct the "big picture", meaning the envelope of the system response, or acoustic color balance of the critical decay window. But before we get there, there is a problematic range, typically around 100-200Hz depending of the room size. It's kind of no-mans-land. Hard to equalize because of extreme locality, hard to absorb because of excessive requirement of the treatment materials. This happens to be the frequency range where a lot of important tonal events take place, not the least glottal pulse fundamental on most vocalists.

But like said, the real "boominess" is what happens below 80Hz, being modal half-wave and full wave resonances of a typical room. Effective way to deal with it is precise equalizing. Introducing AM filters like in 8033 further adds some slight speed to the early part of decay on critical window. It also assures that the other side of the waterfall, cumulative attack curve, is not ruined like it is on some parametric notching filter structures. This removes the boominess completely and leads to better transient response.
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post #187 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Now what does 8033 do to everything over 144Hz.

Here is a plot of the 8033's frequency response.

John

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post #188 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPM View Post

Here is a plot of the 8033's frequency response.

now what does it mean?
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post #189 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Like I said it is personal preference. To me the ringing at low end is more bothersome. I have tried listening to the mains set to small and the sub completely disconnected. My old yamaha receiver has a fixed crossover at 90Hz. I am not bothered by any ringing when the sub is disdonnected, if at all it exists beyond 90Hz in my room. So it is the ringing/boominess at the low end that bothers me. I use the OC 703 panels at the first reflection points on the side walls so that I dont hear the reflected sound much and this improves the soundstage. I also have the panels behind the speakers.

The bass traps in the 3 corners dont seem to be very effective in reducing the ringing at the low end. So this is where I see that 8033 might help.

It is quite obvious that the ringing is then originated from frequencies below 90Hz and caused by the subwoofer. That is a good range to be corrected by sub-EQ.
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post #190 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

now what does it mean?


It means that the frequency response is dropping off rapidly from well below 100hz and on up. I don't like the looks of that, although it shouldn't have much effect if a crossover of 80hz or lower is used.
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post #191 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

now what does it mean?

It's the bypass-response of the bessel. It means that at 200Hz, the response is attenuated about 8dB. However, this response is corrected too by the 8033 itself, so you can get quite flat response up to 144Hz. The important thing is how 200Hz is attenuated compared to the 144Hz. This depends on your room and subs, if you would use 8033 up to 200Hz. I suggest using cross-over no higher than 150Hz to prevent bad luck.
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post #192 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

I suggest using cross-over no higher than 150Hz to prevent bad luck.

TEL, you're superstitious?
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post #193 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

How effective your bass traps are will depend on density, thickness and most importantly, placement. How thick are your panels ? Where are they placed ? Are you using an air gap ?

--Regards,

It is a tringle 24''x17''x17'' and 2'' thick, stacked up to 7'

This is the kind of corner trap that is being used by folks at the dedicated HT forum. I have already discussed this at length there and they didnt find any fault with the way I have them, except that I am about 1foot short of hitting the ceiling. I had also said there that if 7' stack didnt make much difference, another 1' is not going to make a major difference. I guess I have posted the pictures many times at AVS. I guess I also posted it here. So there is very little left to argue about them except that they just dont work very well at the low end:-) Like I said before it is just not practial to add such trap at every corner in the room. I added to the 3 corners but there are other corners way up at the celing which are jut not practical and given the effectiveness of these traps, I wouldnt not waste my time trying to reach those corners using a 17' ladder. Life is not worth risking in order to control the bass :-)
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post #194 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

It means that the frequency response is dropping off rapidly from well below 100hz and on up. I don't like the looks of that, although it shouldn't have much effect if a crossover of 80hz or lower is used.

At 100Hz it has dropped about 3dB compared to 20Hz, which is not too rapid. Anyway, this is "visible" to 8033 when it is calibrating like any response curve the subwoofer itself may have (usually bandpass), so it's corrected anyway. Only case you are getting that response is on the bypass mode, which is only meant to check the difference.

When 8033 is on flat, you get response that targets flat (not bypass response). With liftings you get also different curves. As you can see from the graph, 8033 has tight DC block. The -3dB point is something like 3Hz. Bypass does not activate infrasonic filter. In liftings they are activated, but in flat again not. This means that 8033 can be used for extremely low reproducing subs, like I stated before.
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post #195 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

It means that the frequency response is dropping off rapidly from well below 100hz and on up. I don't like the looks of that, although it shouldn't have much effect if a crossover of 80hz or lower is used.

me too :-)
I would have liked the 200Hz to be within 5db. Even 150Hz doesnt seem to
be within 5db.

For some reason people dont seem to think there is much value in
EQ-ing the 100-200Hz range.
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post #196 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

me too :-)
I would have liked the 200Hz to be within 5db. Even 150Hz doesnt seem to
be within 5db.

For some reason people dont seem to think there is much value in
EQ-ing the 100-200Hz range.

The value of eq'ing a sub >100hz typically is not of too much value because it's usually crossed over at 80hz or lower.
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post #197 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

TEL, you're superstitious?

It's probable that 200Hz would work just fine with 8033, as the transition band in XO is wide, mains would leak to that range anyway, and theres always modes and such between the range 16-144 (why would one need 8033 if there wasn't) which would drop that part even lower than the bessel-passed 144-200Hz

...but bad luck happens
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post #198 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

This means that 8033 can be used for extremely low reproducing subs, like I stated before.

The audible range is from 20Hz to 20,000 Hz right?

So anything under 20hz really has no value except if they are used
for shakers. I always wondered why subwoofer manufacturers strive hard to go below 20Hz when no human can hear them. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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post #199 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

me too :-)
I would have liked the 200Hz to be within 5db. Even 150Hz doesnt seem to
be within 5db.

The bypass mode isn't, but after the calibration you get the flat 'target' up to 144Hz. Of course from 144 to 150 there can still be a sudden drop of 5dB with the worst luck, but only if there were no modes around 100-144Hz (but wouldn't that be kind of ideal).

You don't ever get the bypass response of that graph out of the system response. It is not the target curve of the calibration. It only applies in "bypass" state where the Anti-Mode is turned off.
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post #200 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

The value of eq'ing a sub >100hz typically is not of too much value because it's usually crossed over at 80hz or lower.

well that is because some one has set a precidence and people just follow that. If you see the FR I had posted, it clearly has peaks over 80Hz, a nasty one at 142Hz. Now if I set the crossover at 80Hz, I am not going to be able to fix that peak. I could control it using BFD if I send full range signal. I did try this but BFD adds too much distorsion when I send a full range signal.
So that option is ruled out.

So my only option to fix peaks over 80Hz is if I set the crossover on the receiver higher (assuming that I will buy a new receiver that will have variable crossover unlike my old yamaha RX-V795a). I am thinking of setting the crossover at 150 or even 200. I am also planning to get the SVS SB12 which can go as high as 300Hz.

As you can see, Eq-ing 100-200Hz range has a lot of value in my case.

My mains clearly have a bad peak at 142Hz. Right now I am taming them by plugging the ports. It still doesnt bring it down much. I am bothered more by the ringing in the low end, but I certainly like to fix up to 200Hz or at least 150Hz. I may not live in the same house or have the same speakers/sub for the rest of my life :-)
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post #201 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

The bypass mode isn't, but after the calibration you get the flat 'target' up to 144Hz. Of course from 144 to 150 there can still be a sudden drop of 5dB with the worst luck, but only if there were no modes around 100-144Hz (but wouldn't that be kind of ideal).

You don't ever get the bypass response of that graph out of the system response. It is not the target curve of the calibration. It only applies in "bypass" state where the Anti-Mode is turned off.


That curve doesnt have much importance then, because 8033 is not going to be used in the bypass mode except to hear the difference between the sound before and after correction.

so why has 144hz been chosen as a limit. Why cant 8033 simply EQ all the way up to 200Hz.

Got to go watch the US open.
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post #202 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

The audible range is from 20Hz to 20,000 Hz right?

So anything under 20hz really has no value except if they are used
for shakers. I always wondered why subwoofer manufacturers strive hard to go below 20Hz when no human can hear them. Please correct me if I am wrong.

A couple of points regarding <20 hz frequencies:

1. If you expect a sub to play a 20hz sound loud and clear, it cannot do so and not be able to also play 19hz, 18hz, 17hz, and possibly lower although these may be rapidly rolling off. It can't just play strong down to 20hz and just quit playing anything right below there.

2. Even if you can't hear below 20hz (although some folks apparently can), it's about the feel. Sound pressure, whether audible or not, is pressure which at low frequencies can be felt by your body. It's not exactly the same as with shakers and shakers only work if you are seated in the chairs that have them.
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post #203 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

The audible range is from 20Hz to 20,000 Hz right?

So anything under 20hz really has no value except if they are used
for shakers. I always wondered why subwoofer manufacturers strive hard to go below 20Hz when no human can hear them. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Well technically you are right. But then again, not many people can actually hear up to 20kHz or even 15kHz, whereas amongst certain enthusiasts reproduction below 16Hz is indeed appreciated.
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post #204 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

so why has 144hz been chosen as a limit.

Doing AM-EQ above that would get so local, that you could perhaps improve the situation for the left ear, but already make it worse for the right.
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post #205 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 02:19 PM
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I have another question with regards to the 8033 and Butt-kicker bass shakers...it probably doesn't make sense, but I was wondering if there is any advantage/disadvantage of running the bass shaker signal thru the 8033. I have the 8033 running to my VTF-3 MKII, but I also have 2 buttkicker amps running 4 buttkickers...The buttkicker amps have a crossover and subsonic filter built in already. I'm thinking there probably isn't any advantage since the 8033 calibrations are based on sound, and the shakers just shake. I guess if I want to boost the lower frequencies with the "lift" modes, I could do that, but other than that, I don't think it would be beneficial, right?
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post #206 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

Doing AM-EQ above that would get so local, that you could perhaps improve the situation for the left ear, but already make it worse for the right.

Can you use two of these for two subs?
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post #207 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes View Post

Can you use two of these for two subs?

I would think you could, but unless you are running stereo subs, ultimately the sound you are hearing would be that of the two subs combined. To me it would make more sense to eq the two of them together with one unit.
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post #208 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

yep that waterfall plot is disappointing. After 17 traps, the low end has not improved much.

Perhaps I should have noted, Ethan admitted in the text of the face-off that these particular traps were not the best choice for low frequencies. My intent in using them was merely to demonstrate what a true reduction in ringing (i.e. faster signal decay) looks like on a waterfall. People can extrapolate to their own low frequency waterfalls.

Regards,
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post #209 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes View Post

Can you use two of these for two subs?

I use on Anti Mode for two MBM-12's (one each with mains) and two HSU 3.3's (nearfield, behind seating area). It works great for all the subs and have had no problems. You can use as many subs as you want as long as they are downstream (with "Y" splitters) of the Anti Mode.

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post #210 of 1785 Old 06-15-2008, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TEL79 View Post

Biggest benefit of 8033 is, that it is offers affordable plug-and-play solution to get accurate EQ and audible improvements in the subwoofer range, previously possible to only hard-core BFD users.

Hello I am a BFD user but not what I would consider hard core. I have calibrated my subs to within +/- 6dB across the subwoofer range but have done nothing to address timing, z filters, or anything else other than SPL metering with Room EQ and a Rat Shack meter. I simply cut the peaks and added some minor bits of boost after first adjusting phase and playing with locations.

Would I benefit from a 8033?

Can we put together a AVS group buy?

How would this compare to the upcoming SVS subwoofer EQ system.

Thank you
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