Official REL Subwoofer thread... - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 803 Old 02-14-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by wnmv2006 View Post

Thank you very much, DrMichael and Delfincek. I place my stereo system in the living room. Right behind it is the stair going up from left to right. Therefore, the room is not rectangular because of this. When I place the T7 on the left (between the stereo rack and left speaker), it sounds louder than that when I place it on the right with same crossover and volume levels. That's why I think the T 9 with little more powerful amp may balance the sound.

I have a very similar setup as yourself. I have the same subs but just make the sub in the open space a tad louder (gain adjustments) to balance out the other one and it works very well. smile.gif

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post #632 of 803 Old 02-14-2014, 04:47 PM
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Question to all....I I set my mains to 80hz and lfe to 80hz for movies...how does that affect my high level connection bass response?

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post #633 of 803 Old 02-14-2014, 05:52 PM
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Are you referencing settings for an avr?
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post #634 of 803 Old 02-14-2014, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Maccur View Post

Are you referencing settings for an avr?

Yes

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post #635 of 803 Old 02-15-2014, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by DrMichael View Post

Question to all....I I set my mains to 80hz and lfe to 80hz for movies...how does that affect my high level connection bass response?

Well, you get less HI-level response, so that advantage of the REL will be gone. You basically have an ordinary sub, but weak, since REL don't have as much steam as their competitors. The good things is that your mains can now play louder, though the question is which will bottom out first: Your REL or your main speakers when run full range. In my HT room I have my main speakers running full range with the ordinary crossover set + the LFE channel
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post #636 of 803 Old 02-15-2014, 02:56 AM
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Ignore Rel's advice on sending high level and low level to your sub, you don't need it. The advice is wrong. You only need one connection

Home theatre- RCA out, filtered

Stereo (one of the following)
1) High level from speaker binding posts
2) Low level from pre-out, stereo
2a) Also from subwoofer out, into power amplifiers (using subs high pass filter to remove and re-direct low frequencies from the signal)

For stereo adjust the subs crossover.

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post #637 of 803 Old 02-19-2014, 08:44 PM
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So I was watching Enders Game (rental - Dolby Digital lossy) and when the rocket takes off at the 1hr 5min mark the bass on both the R-528SE seem to bloat. I observed the sub and the throw was super long in the front so obviously the going low (I think). Has anybody else experienced this at that part in the movie? It is not the LFE as it lessens as I turn the crossover down. I have the crossover set at around 50Hz (towers are rated to 40Hz). Is this due to the lossy audio, sub going to low....? Was it supposed to be that way?

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post #638 of 803 Old 02-19-2014, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMichael View Post

So I was watching Enders Game (rental - Dolby Digital lossy) and when the rocket takes off at the 1hr 5min mark the bass on both the R-528SE seem to bloat. I observed the sub and the throw was super long in the front so obviously the going low (I think). Has anybody else experienced this at that part in the movie? It is not the LFE as it lessens as I turn the crossover down. I have the crossover set at around 50Hz (towers are rated to 40Hz). Is this due to the lossy audio, sub going to low....? Was it supposed to be that way?

Could be some garbage in the signal, like DC.

Also, I'd cross the subs @ 30Hz if your main speakers have such a response.
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post #639 of 803 Old 02-19-2014, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Q View Post

Could be some garbage in the signal, like DC.

Also, I'd cross the subs @ 30Hz if your main speakers have such a response.

I cross my subs at 45ish but looked and saw that my hi level volume was set at 50% at each sub!!!! I got out a test disc and turned it up loud at a frequency of 40Hz and reset the gain and it came out to be around 25% volume per sub. I replayed the scene and I don't think I heard any bass bloat. The subs seem much more even now and not so boomy for music....so hopefully that fixed it.

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post #640 of 803 Old 02-20-2014, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMichael View Post

I cross my subs at 45ish but looked and saw that my hi level volume was set at 50% at each sub!!!! I got out a test disc and turned it up loud at a frequency of 40Hz and reset the gain and it came out to be around 25% volume per sub. I replayed the scene and I don't think I heard any bass bloat. The subs seem much more even now and not so boomy for music....so hopefully that fixed it.

Allright! Good to hear!

People sometimes forget the crossover of REL don't cut off, but roll off. 12db per octave iirc. Crossing a bit below your speakers is not a strange idea. Also always take into consideration your room mode, which will amplify low frequencies in a certain range
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post #641 of 803 Old 02-20-2014, 08:13 AM
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Hope you're not sending LFE (RCA) + L/R (high level) it's not needed.

Martin Logan Motion 40 have FR of 40hz
Center 65hz.

So I'd set 40's no lower than 40. 50hz will be fine
For center 70hz.

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post #642 of 803 Old 02-20-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

Hope you're not sending LFE (RCA) + L/R (high level) it's not needed.

Martin Logan Motion 40 have FR of 40hz
Center 65hz.

So I'd set 40's no lower than 40. 50hz will be fine
For center 70hz.

Do you have any experience with REL subs?

The hi level crossover rolls off. That means that if you cross it at 40hz, it still generates sound at 50hz. If you cross a REL to high, it will cause a double bass, which result in a boom.

People that buy a REL believe the HI level connection gives superior results for 2ch listening. It's the whole point of getting a REL in the first place (besides the fact that you can also pair it with amps that don't have a sub out). If you don't use the HI level connection, you will be better of with a much cheaper and more powerful sub.

The whole HI level thing is all subjective of course and we might all be delusional. ;-)


Many receivers have a pure audio mode that let's it run the main speakers in full range so it can use the HI level connection only. When it switches to DTS or Dolby D it automatically activates the crossover of the receiver and enables the LFE channel for movies. Being able to switch between both modes is why I would connect it both ways. I have it like this in two HT setups and it works like a charm.
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post #643 of 803 Old 02-20-2014, 11:18 AM
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I used to have a Rel, yes. But sending two signals was a problem. Combined L/R (either filtered or full range) plus LFE. So instead just used LFE. Rel are incorrect about it.


Granted if you run L/R in full-range (LFE is off) then yes it's ok. But why would you run speakers full range, unlikely your mains can do that, so might as well use BM. And if you use a Hi-Fi with no BM and say bookshelf speaker, use a high pass filter on the sub.

So it's quite pointless.

You only need to send high level if your pre-amp doesn't have any LFE/left & right pre-outs.

"The hi level crossover rolls off. "

So does the low lowel. Either high or low level, use the subs own crossover to blend in with your system (when not using AVR BM)

But you still don't need high and low level in a 2 channel Hi-Fi. Just send one. I'm using pre-outs from a 2channel pre-amp (fullrange) into sub input, high pass 80hz, sub RCA out into poweramps.

There is no need at all for two signals, either for Hifi or home theatre.

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post #644 of 803 Old 02-20-2014, 01:50 PM
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LFE is a must for movies though. I haven't found any player that outputs the .1 to the main speakers in a proper way. A down mix usually gradually weakens the amount of bass, probably because many ordinary speakers can't handle it.

I run my mains full range though, since they can play louder then my neighbors would accept for longer then a few minutes. I haven't been able to use my REL for quite a few months because I bought a Class D amp and you need a special HI level cable on the older RELs and my speakers go quite deep considering they are just large bookshelves (Dynaudio C1's). Cutting these speakers would be a waste. I only use the sub to add a little layer of low frequency with the crossover @ 30Hz.
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post #645 of 803 Old 02-20-2014, 01:59 PM
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No way I'd run Dynaudio C1 full range. I have large bookshelf speakers and use the high pass filter (80hz) ideally would like to play around with adjustable high pass but it's fixed. At the very least set the C1 to 45hz, 50hz etc and bring up the sub to that. My bookshelf speakers go down to 42hz +/- 2dB

My Lexicon can do LFE + Main bass but it's not recommended, as you get duplicate bass. If you have av amp or av pre-amp I'd probably use small 60hz, trying each step between 40/50/60/70/80 and see which works best.

If you use a analogue hifi pre-amp, try and use a high pass filter, take out low bass before the amp stage on the L/R signal, that goes to sub, then pass on higher frequencies to the power amps.

Works very well, like I said, use a subs high pass. Sending full range to C1, plus LFE plus L/R full range to the sub is the wrong way of doing it.

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post #646 of 803 Old 02-20-2014, 02:43 PM
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Hiya,
I have Anthony Gallo Reference 3.5
Marantz PM-KI Pearl Lite (stereo integrated)
Marantz SR-6003 (A/V receiver)
I also have 2x REL B2

and I use it like this:
For music
Marantz PM-KI Pearl Lite + 2x REL B2 each on its own channel, connected via HL cable, crossed at 30Hz
superb blend, much better result than via LL

For movies
Marantz SR-6003 + Marantz PM-KI Pearl LIte connected via HT bypass for feeding L and R + 2x REL B2 connected via RCA cable directly through Marantz's SR-6003 A/V receiver sub out. Crossover set on receiver on 80Hz.
gives a needed punch in movies. If connected only via HL there it is not enough as Mr.Q said.

best, d.
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post #647 of 803 Old 02-20-2014, 04:40 PM
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So has anyone compared a G1 to a 528 SE? How about a G1 to JL or B&W? Thanks.

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post #648 of 803 Old 02-21-2014, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delfincek View Post

Hiya,
I have Anthony Gallo Reference 3.5
Marantz PM-KI Pearl Lite (stereo integrated)
Marantz SR-6003 (A/V receiver)
I also have 2x REL B2

and I use it like this:
For music
Marantz PM-KI Pearl Lite + 2x REL B2 each on its own channel, connected via HL cable, crossed at 30Hz
superb blend, much better result than via LL

For movies
Marantz SR-6003 + Marantz PM-KI Pearl LIte connected via HT bypass for feeding L and R + 2x REL B2 connected via RCA cable directly through Marantz's SR-6003 A/V receiver sub out. Crossover set on receiver on 80Hz.
gives a needed punch in movies. If connected only via HL there it is not enough as Mr.Q said.

best, d.

For music, fine. The 6003 is switched off so not sending a signal.

But for HT, both are switched on, the 6003 is sending LFE, and the PM-KI is sending L/R bass to the sub.

So basically subs are reproducing LFE + Main bass. Not good. Ideally you want the high level inputs to be disabled in HT mode. Perhaps you could use B speaker switch on the PM to switch sub high level output on and off?

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post #649 of 803 Old 02-21-2014, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

For music, fine. The 6003 is switched off so not sending a signal.

But for HT, both are switched on, the 6003 is sending LFE, and the PM-KI is sending L/R bass to the sub.

So basically subs are reproducing LFE + Main bass. Not good. Ideally you want the high level inputs to be disabled in HT mode. Perhaps you could use B speaker switch on the PM to switch sub high level output on and off?

Hiya fatbottom,
actually I tried as I have an option to do this on my Marantz PM-KI Pearl Lite as I have A and B switch and I also have it connected like that. But eventually during my two years of living with this setup I did not discovered any significant major difference in reproduction of the lowest octave while watching movies if both A+B are switched on during HT application. Probably you are right that there would be some difference while measuring but my ears do not detect it.

best,
D.
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post #650 of 803 Old 02-21-2014, 04:08 AM
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Some more reading regarding high and low level

http://www.avforums.com/threads/faq-high-level-and-low-level-inputs.1750938/

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post #651 of 803 Old 02-21-2014, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

For music, fine. The 6003 is switched off so not sending a signal.

But for HT, both are switched on, the 6003 is sending LFE, and the PM-KI is sending L/R bass to the sub.

So basically subs are reproducing LFE + Main bass. Not good. Ideally you want the high level inputs to be disabled in HT mode. Perhaps you could use B speaker switch on the PM to switch sub high level output on and off?

I think it also depends on how you setup your AVR. As long as you make sure you don't let the AVR send parts of the main speakers signal over the LFE, you won't notice a difference, though that would require you to run your mains full range. That is heavily dependent on the situation. I for one can never play movies or music any louder then my main speakers could handle, because I live in a 'small' European house with brick/concrete walls with both sides of the house directly connected to my neighbors. With good speakers I prefer the sound of the speakers over that of the sub. Especially RELs don't sound very good when they have to perform above the 50~60Hz.

For pure HT use I always recommend not to get a REL though, since pure LFE performance they simply can't deliver the same output for the same price as the competitors. iirc the whole selling point of REL was always their fast crossover, but since AVRs nowadays have options to perfectly sync the sub with the mains, I am starting to doubt if there are truly any benefits left to justify the high price.
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post #652 of 803 Old 02-21-2014, 09:01 PM
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I came to a Best Buy store with a T7 in mind, but left with two R218s, one with me and one to pick up from another store. Compared to the T7, the R218 sounds pretty close. In the store, the T7 was a little boomier. But at home, I am not sure which one is better. I will pick up the second R218 this Sunday. Then, I hope the sound improves a little bit.
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post #653 of 803 Old 02-21-2014, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnmv2006 View Post

I came to a Best Buy store with a T7 in mind, but left with two R218s, one with me and one to pick up from another store. Compared to the T7, the R218 sounds pretty close. In the store, the T7 was a little boomier. But at home, I am not sure which one is better. I will pick up the second R218 this Sunday. Then, I hope the sound improves a little bit.

I had a T7 and I home auditioned a R218. I think the R218 is considerably better. I ended up trading in my T7 and getting a R-328, which is what I have now.

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post #654 of 803 Old 02-21-2014, 09:24 PM
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I currently have two R528-SE subs and am thinking of trading up for the new Martin Logan BalanceForce 212 sub. I do mostly HT and some music. Your thoughts on this predicament?

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post #655 of 803 Old 02-21-2014, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DrMichael View Post

I currently have two R528-SE subs and am thinking of trading up for the new Martin Logan BalanceForce 212 sub. I do mostly HT and some music. Your thoughts on this predicament?

My HT multichannel and music two-channel systems are completely segregated. I use my REL for the music system. I have a Dynaudio SUB500 for the HT system. I have never used the TREL for HT. The Dynaudio won't work in my music system because it doesn't have high-level inputs.

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post #656 of 803 Old 02-21-2014, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMichael View Post

I currently have two R528-SE subs and am thinking of trading up for the new Martin Logan BalanceForce 212 sub. I do mostly HT and some music. Your thoughts on this predicament?

I'd try to optimize what you already have before looking at something else. Do you have a measurement tool like an OmniMic or REW? That would allow you to see if your current subs are underperforming due to poor placement. If your current subs are properly located but you're not getting the low end impact you want, have you tried increasing the gains to your subs? If you've run a room EQ program like Audyssey and not done anything else, you're likely to be dissatisfied with the low frequencies. That's not your sub's fault. Audyssey sets sub gains so the low frequencies are flat with the mains. This will sound underwhelming. Going into your AVR after running Audyssey and setting your speakers to "Small", crossovers to 80 Hz, and increasing the gain on the sub channels can make a big improvement to the sound.

If you've done due diligence with measuring & optimizing but your subs still can't cut the mustard, then it's time to look at upgrades. If two R528's can't do it for you I'd look at something more substantial than the ML. I expect that a Funk Audio 18.0, Seaton SubMersive, or JTR S2 would all offer higher performance than the 212 you're considering.
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post #657 of 803 Old 02-22-2014, 03:47 AM
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Does your REL (T series) also sub start to hum when shutting of your amp?
The high level cable expects both right and left channels to share same ground level as both red and yellow cables share one black ground cable, else red or yellow will lack ground and the REL sub will hum.
The separate digital power amplifiers in my Marantz class D amp loose ground when shutting it off, meaning right and left channel don't share ground between channels or with anything else on the back panel, like RCA inputs.
You can easily test your amp with a multimeter and measure resistance (or use the buzzer/beeper if your meter has one) between right and left speaker channel ground both when the amp off and when it's on, resistance should be very low (buzz/beep) for the sub not to hum.
So, what can I do now?
- Just use the low level input with RCA cable, but then I loose the main REL benefit.
- Buy another REL sub and connect one on each channel, but that's out of my budget.
- Shut of the REL sub before shutting off the amp, but the power switch is far down on the back panel.
My current solution is a wireless power switch for the REL wall socket.
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post #658 of 803 Old 02-22-2014, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

I'd try to optimize what you already have before looking at something else. Do you have a measurement tool like an OmniMic or REW? That would allow you to see if your current subs are underperforming due to poor placement. If your current subs are properly located but you're not getting the low end impact you want, have you tried increasing the gains to your subs? If you've run a room EQ program like Audyssey and not done anything else, you're likely to be dissatisfied with the low frequencies. That's not your sub's fault. Audyssey sets sub gains so the low frequencies are flat with the mains. This will sound underwhelming. Going into your AVR after running Audyssey and setting your speakers to "Small", crossovers to 80 Hz, and increasing the gain on the sub channels can make a big improvement to the sound.

If you've done due diligence with measuring & optimizing but your subs still can't cut the mustard, then it's time to look at upgrades. If two R528's can't do it for you I'd look at something more substantial than the ML. I expect that a Funk Audio 18.0, Seaton SubMersive, or JTR S2 would all offer higher performance than the 212 you're considering.

Thank you for the tips. I will do some investigating to make sure I'm getting the most from them. I will keep you posted cool.gif

Panasonic TC-P65ZT60
Marantz AV8801 pre-pro / MM8077 amp
Martin Logan Motion 50XT Center
Martin Logan Motion 60XT Fronts/40 Rears
REL R-528 SE (2)
Oppo BDP-103D/Playstation 4/Furman ELITE-20 PF i
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post #659 of 803 Old 02-22-2014, 08:07 AM
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Good luck with your adventures in sub optimization! Hopefully a little tweaking is all they need to put a smile on your face during your next Iron Manathon... smile.gif

I like to run my subs about 8 dB hot. If you bump up your sub channel gains 6 - 8 dB and then demo a few movie scenes that have a strong low end, two R528s should be able to provide the impact you're looking for.
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post #660 of 803 Old 02-22-2014, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMichael View Post

I currently have two R528-SE subs and am thinking of trading up for the new Martin Logan BalanceForce 212 sub. I do mostly HT and some music. Your thoughts on this predicament?

I just heard an ML BF 212. I liked it enough to make it a contender for me. I don't have real room to put two subs so I am wondering if the dual opposed woofers would spread the bass more evenly. In the dealer rooms, the bass was much more even with the 212 vs a single JL. The dealer where I heard the ML told me he has two of them in his basement and absolutely loves them - one of his favorite subs of all time. I know this doesn't help with your question but from what I've heard I don't think you will be disappointed with the ML. Whether or not one of these it will be better than two 528SE I don’t know. But I would guess that two ML 212 will be better than two 528SE.

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