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Official REL Subwoofer thread...

437K views 1K replies 339 participants last post by  vlach 
#1 ·
Well folks, I figured it was about time that there was a dedicated REL thread to help answer any questions, share information, helpful tips, etc. As a proud REL dealer, I know that the REL gear can be a bit misunderstood and even tricky to set-up, so I'll try to answer your questions and help out as best as possible. July 9th through the 11th I'll be in REL training at Sumiko in California. I'm very excited to be attending this dedicated subwoofer class and I'm sure afterwards, I'll be even more proficient at helping everyone!


I currently have a Britannia B1 in my system that I just love coupled with my Monitor Audio GS speakers. I've also run the R-Series in my personal setup as well. So, if anyone has any questions, reviews or anything pertaining to REL, fire away!


Thanks.



Greg
 
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#52 ·
Ahh, I see. So as it sits now, with your existing Stentor connected via the high level input and the crossover in your proc. set where it needs to be, does it perform to your liking (other than just needing more output from the sub)?


Not suprised, more impressed than anything. That would be a nice setup, I'm sure.
 
#53 ·
Glad to find this REL forum.


I've been using a older Stadium II for some years now without any problems hooked up to my old Adcom amp. The old Stadium II does not do .1 sub channels, it's only designed for music.


Ok, fast forward to today. I went out and bought a Pioneer SC-07 receiver (that has a Class "D" amp). I'm now told NOT to have my old Stadium II hooked up to it UNLESS I use a very particular wire called a "High Level Digital Cable". I'm also told I was lucky to not have white smoke coming out of my audio equipment while having it hooked up with the old three wire connection (Red, Yellow, Black).


This REL "High Level Digital Cable" is available from REL for what I'm told is about $130. And I would still only use it for the main (high level) two channel output not the .1 sub channel with my current old Stadium II.


From what I understand, it has everything to do with how Class D amps "ground" or don't "ground". This "High Level Digital Cable" is suppose to have three wires, and one of them would have the old RCA connector to be hooked up to ANY unused RCA input on my new Pioneer SC-07 receiver...that being the way it provides "ground" and would make it safe to operate.


I'm told even if I connected a RCA type connection on the black wire of my current "regular" three wired cable, and hooked it up to any unused RCA connection on the back of my SC-07 amp, it would not work in the same way.


I'm getting mixed signals. One sales person says (from another company) it's all marketing hype, and another says (from another company) not to use my Stadium II at all till I have it hooked up correctly. Does anyone know if this is "marketing hype" or something I should really be concerned about. Currently my Stadium II sits unconnected and will continue to do so till I really find out what's going on. I want to be on the safe side.
 
#54 ·
I'm now thinking in addition to my old Stadium II sub bass system, I would like to get one of the new (what I like to call) the B1 Bomber! I'd like to get the B1 for the .1 channel and have my old Stadium II hooked up to the mains (front left and right). I think how it works (in how I would like to hook it up) is while a movie is on, the Stadium II would only be used as a sub base system for the two front mains while the B1 would be used only for the .1 signal.


The Pioneer SC-07 has a feature (I would like to use) that allows the .1 output channel to also be used as a pass through while listening to regular 2 channels sources (CD etc). In this way, I would be using two REL subs at the same time. I would wonder however if the B1 could ever be as musical as my older Stadium II as the B1 is "probably" designed more for movie .1 very high level bass.


I'm only questioning this as "made in China" has made one salesperson (from a totally different company) say that my older Stadium II is a better built sub bass system.


Thanks for everyone's input!
 
#55 ·
Are you sure that your sub cannot be connected hi and low level in the same time? I thought that is the pride of RELs. I can't help you in regard to the cable but I am starting to wonder the same thing as more and more amp's on the market are class d. Did you contact Sumiko? Let us know your findings, please.

Regards
 
#56 ·
Thebarnman, I'm working on finding an answer for you regarding connecting your Stadium to your new receiver.


As far as the B1 vs/ the Stadium comparison is concerened, the B1 is built like all of the other REL's I've seen... Built like tanks with no excuses. I run a B1 and I have it serving double-duty with my .1 LFE connected and the high level Speakon tied to my mains. You have a couple of options for connectivity of the 2 different subs depending upon your room layout and existing gear that we can go over.
 
#57 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio /forum/post/15461875


Are you sure that your sub cannot be connected hi and low level in the same time? I thought that is the pride of RELs. I can't help you in regard to the cable but I am starting to wonder the same thing as more and more amp's on the market are class d. Did you contact Sumiko? Let us know your findings, please.

Regards


Wow, I'm impressed, you guys are good! Not that I'm too surprised. I've been on these boards for over five years now. It's always interesting who I run into.


It was Kendra from Sumiko who told me to unhook my Stadium II from my Pioneer SC-07 (class "D" amp). After what she had told me (about the grounding issues) I was worried that I may have caused damage not only to my Stadium II, but also to my new Pioneer SC-07 receiver. She told as long as I did not see "white smoke" coming from my equipment, I'm probably fine.


She was very serious as to how my Stadium II was being hooked up to the new receiver so that's why I'm being very cautious about this. She seemed very informed. So informed, at one point I asked her if she was a engineer. That's when she told me she was the head sales rep.


She said when I order the cable, I needed to stress the word "Digital" within the description "High Level Digital Cable". Otherwise I might end up with the wrong cable. She gave me a number to a company in Tempe AZ to call to order the cable, however when I called, the number was disconnected.


By the way folks, when I discovered all of this, it was Christmas Eve. I was simply very lucky to get a hold of ANYONE that afternoon. Luckally for me, I had only had my new Pioneer SC-07 receiver for only about a couple days and may have only operated it with the Stadium II for maybe about a couple hours at the most.


I will say, when the Stadium II was switched from my old Adcom amp to the new class D receiver, I noticed almost right away that the Stadium II was outputting at a MUCH lower level. I did not think much of it at the time as I was thinking it probably had to do with the differences in electronics with the new receiver. I then turned up the volume control on the Stadium II so the level could be about the same as it was when it was hooked up to my older Adcom amp. However the reproduction from the Stadium II did not seem the same. It did not seem very musical. It really was not producing a smooth low frequency response. It seems "choppy"...or "stressed". What ever the description, it did not seem to play effortlessly like it did when it was hooked up to my Adcom amp.


Still, I did not think much of it as it was a new receiver and I have not even set up all the parameters (distant settings, audio levels, small big speaker settings etc). The only reason I called Sumiko was to search out a REL dealer in my area to buy a 2nd sub for my system.


The reason I was looking for a 2nd sub is because when I had UMR out to my home to do a Video and Audio calibration, he noticed a low frequency hump in my room. He mentioned getting a 2nd sub could help smooth things out. He also mentioned that the 2nd sub would not have to be very big, it could be used simply to help smooth out the low frequency "hump" in my room. Sooo, in my attempt to find a REL dealer in my area, I called Sumiko and ended up with Kendra. That's when all hell broke loose!


Kendra was great. She educated me about my Pioneer SC-07 and it's D class status and why it was so important to "ground" the Stadium II properly. Explained why using my "old" wires for the Stadium II was not a good idea (with the SC-07) and why it was so important that I get this "High Level Digital Cable".


I finally found a dealer in my area called "Artisan Cinema" in Scottsdale. When I described the "High Level Digital Cable" and my conversation with Kendra, they were fascinated and wanted to learn more. They understood about proper grounding however were not sure how a "High Level Digital Cable" would work. They finally found the cable from REL so at least that's set. Still, I have not ordered anything till I really learn what's going on.


Then I get a call from another sales person (and I won't say where, however it was in my area) who made the remark about the "High Level Digital Cables" calling it "Hype" and "Marketing" and that the cables I currently have would work. But then I start to question what does this guy really know?


Kendra seemed really knowledgeable and was really wanting to point me in the right direction.


My problem with this whole situation is if Class "D" amps are more common now than they used to be, I would think the whole matter of proper connection to a REL using a Class "D" amp would be much more common knowledge with everyone and not a few privileged in the "know".


Unless of course, this is a fairly new situation that people need to be educated about. And so it's probably a good thing I'm posting about this situation. I'm sure we will get to the bottom of this issue and when it's over, at least it will be a reference for those with REL and class D amps.
 
#58 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio /forum/post/15461875


Are you sure that your sub cannot be connected hi and low level in the same time? I thought that is the pride of RELs. I can't help you in regard to the cable but I am starting to wonder the same thing as more and more amp's on the market are class d. Did you contact Sumiko? Let us know your findings, please.

Regards


Sorry Orologio, I did not answer your first question! Image that. I got so caught up with what's going on, I forgot!


First, my Stadium II does have a high and low level input. Actually, it even has another input, but I won't go there.


However, about hooking up my Stadium II to a Hi and Low level at the same time. This is a older REL sub bass system that was designed ONLY to be used as part of a music system, not a movie system. (This is what I've been recently told)


After further research, I learned that my Stadium II does not have the "extended" area for the "driver" to travel while producing low frequencies at higher levels. If I try to use the Stadium II for .1 signals, doing so will "bottom" out my low frequency driver as it tries to reproduce explosions and that sort of thing at higher levels.


I understand that the NEWER RELs are designed to help reproduce music (when using regular two channel audio like a CD etc) and then switch automatically to a .1 signal when a movie is being played (DVD, Blu-ray etc). I think that's where using Hi and Low level connections at the same time come into play.



I even questioned Kendra at Sumiko about using my Stadium II for both (music and movie reproduction) since my Pioneer SC-07 receiver has a function allowing a subwoofer to be hooked up to the .1 connection and it switching automatically between low frequency info (while listening to CDs) and then to the .1 signals while watching movies. That's when I was informed, that


A: My Stadium II is not designed for .1 signal reproduction


AND


B: My old three wire connection with my new Pioneer SC-07 (Class D amp) could harm my equipment because of a grounding issue.


You could say I really learned a lot about REL on the 11th hour on Christmas Eve! It's a mind blower for sure, however something I feel could be very important for everyone to know if more people end up with a Class D amp.


Another thing I would like to share is when I originally bought my Stadium II, I was never educated about the fact that this particular sub bass system was never designed for .1 audio. Then again, Dolby Digital was JUST coming out (that's how old my Stadium II is) and so it's possible that the sales person who I bought this from was never informed about the differences. Plus, the Stadium II was never deigned with .1 movie signals in mind. It's strictly a music system. Not a bad thing after all. The newer RELs are designed with .1 signals in mind.


Another mind blower? I was also told that when my Stadium II was designed, Dolby Digital was not even around (at least for home reproduction) and therefore, never considered in it's design.
 
#59 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwkshift /forum/post/15463839


Thebarnman, I'm working on finding an answer for you regarding connecting your Stadium to your new receiver.


As far as the B1 vs/ the Stadium comparison is concerned, the B1 is built like all of the other REL's I've seen... Built like tanks with no excuses. I run a B1 and I have it serving double-duty with my .1 LFE connected and the high level Speakon tied to my mains. You have a couple of options for connectivity of the 2 different subs depending upon your room layout and existing gear that we can go over.

Hi,


Thanks for all your help. It will be interesting to see if your idea of hooking up the black wire (of my current REL Red, Yellow and Black wire) to the phono ground on my new receiver would work in the same manner as if it was a "High Level Digital Cable". After all, that IS a ground.


Of course, we won't do anything to "test" this out till we hear back from the people at Sumiko. If getting this "High Level Digital Cable" is the only solution when connecting a REL to a Class "D" amp, we should make it a prominent post so others can act accordingly, prevent damage and achieve better performance from their equipment.
 
#60 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebarnman /forum/post/15466450


Hi,


Thanks for all your help. It will be interesting to see if your idea of hooking up the black wire (of my current REL Red, Yellow and Black wire) to the phono ground on my new receiver would work in the same manner as if it was a "High Level Digital Cable". After all, that IS a ground.


Of course, we won't do anything to "test" this out till we hear back from the people at Sumiko. If getting this "High Level Digital Cable" is the only solution when connecting a REL to a Class "D" amp, we should make it a prominent post so others can act accordingly, prevent damage and achieve better performance from their equipment.

Agreed.
 
#61 ·
I was finally able to order the "High Level Digital Cable" a week ago today. I just received word that it's just now being shipped from CA and I should receive it in the next couple days. Monday at the latest. When I do receive it, I'll be sure to share images of this special cable that's only being made on a case by case basis.


Then I can find out if it will have a difference in performance. A reminder of when I had the original cable hooked up to it, something did seem to be wrong.


Also, I'm going to post a "Warning" for REL owners who use Class "D" amps/receivers in this thread and make one of it's own thread. I wanted to make it a sticky, however the mods stated they are trying to keep the amount of stickys to a minimum and this notice would only effect a small percentage in this group.


It's a interesting situation and kind of rare. In my years of this hobby, I've never ran across anything like it.
 
#62 ·
of damage due to improper ground.


The following situation can cause damage to your audio equipment. If you use regular "High Level" cables connected to any of the main outputs on a Class "D" amp or receiver, there is risk of damage due to improper grounding. However there is no risk of damage if your using the RCA type connection while hooked up to the low level connection.


If your using a newer REL sub bass system that's designed for both music (high level input) AND movie sound (.1 LFE Channel low level RCA type connection) while connected to both connections at the same time, AND your using a class "D" amp or receiver, you risk damage to your audio equipment with only the High Level Input connection.


Again, the issue being proper grounding. Hooking the black wire of the "High Level" cable to a phono ground will not help. Hooking up a RCA type connection to the black wire and attaching it to any of the unused RCA connections on the back of your amp/receiver will also not help.


The way to properly hook up your REL to a class "D" amp/receiver (while using the high level connection) is to use a "High Level Digital Cable" available through your local REL dealer. This is a "new" situation and the "High Level Digital Cables" are only being manufactured on a case by case basis. The word "Digital" is not to be confused with the type of signal being sent through it, it only describes the type of cable to be manufactured. Many local REL dealers may not be aware of this and will have to contact Sumiko for further information.
 
#63 ·
My "High Level Digital Cable" arrived last Thursday. Unfortunately the "Speak-on" connection was of the newer type, not of the older type I need for my older REL Stadium II.


Not a problem as it was easily sent back to Sumiko by one of my local REL dealers for a replacement.


So as part of this update, it's also important to provide the model of the REL sub bass system you have as the connections are different on the newer models.


Once I get the correct replacement, I will provide images so everyone can see what the "Digital High Level Cable" looks like.


To describe by words, it does not look any different then regular high level cable connections except for the fact that it does have a RCA type connection on the black wire. Again, REL says there's more to it than that, as there's more that helps provide a proper ground.
 
#64 ·
Folks:

I have both an audio system and a home theater system. For my audio system,

it looks like I just missed a REL Stadium III on Audiogon for a VERY reasonable price. I would like to interact with a REL dealer in the NorthEast (I am in Central New York) who is recommended by those of you who have successfully integrated a REL into your system. If you could PM me with a dealer that you recommend, I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
 
#68 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 720p /forum/post/15913159


Forgive my ignorance but how do I know what class my receiver is? It is a yamaha rx-v4600 and I'm using both high & low level connections to my b3 with the old wire. No smoke yet.

I'd just contact Yamaha. I looked through their information page on that unit and I couldn't find anything stating if it was a class-D or not. Or, you could go over to the Yamaha receiver thread and see what you can dig up there.
 
#69 ·
i just bought a REL R305 subwoofer. i have given the unit about 65 hours of break in at this point. i currently have it hooked up to my NAD t785 receiver using an AudioQuest Sub3 rca subwoofer cable. i am happy with this connection but am wondering if it would be beneficial to use the speakon connector versus the rca connection that is currently equipped. if i was to use the speakon connection how would i connect it to my amp?
 
#70 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusinhigh /forum/post/15962352


i just bought a REL R305 subwoofer. i have given the unit about 65 hours of break in at this point. i currently have it hooked up to my NAD t785 receiver using an AudioQuest Sub3 rca subwoofer cable. i am happy with this connection but am wondering if it would be beneficial to use the speakon connector versus the rca connection that is currently equipped. if i was to use the speakon connection how would i connect it to my amp?

You can actually have it connected both ways at the same time. Basically, you would leave the .1 LFE connection the way it is and then the SpeakOn connection would be made to your front mains at either the speakers themselves, or on the back of the receiver at the binding posts. Then, ensure your mains are set to "Large/ Full Range", etc. and follow the setup instructions that came with the REL. Take your time and go step-by-step as per the manual. It can take a bit of time to get it right, but once it's set up, you don't have to touch anything else. At this point, the sub will receive the .1 LFE signal from your movies and when you switch over to music, it will rely on the Speakon connection to support your mains.


Have fun!
 
#74 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragwo /forum/post/15876478


Many thanks to Thebarnman for your research! You've just saved me and my old Studio I from a painful experience.

I'm glad I could be of help! It took a little while to get the information, however I knew if I could type it all down, it would be of benefit to others.
 
#75 ·
Barnman, your situation makes an interesting read. I am in the process of selecting equipment for a new HT system and am considering the B1 (or at least was, my interest is waning).


I plan to use class D amplification and have asked my local dealers about this connectivity issue but none know how to respond. So I find it interesting that I have now found this thread.


Actually John Dawson from Arcam provided a good answer to the issue in your other thread, most class D amplifiers are configured with what's known as a full bridge output. This type of output is balanced. However this is not unique to class D amps, some class A/B amps like certain Bryston models also use a balanced output.


In a more typical amp, the negative terminal is grounded and the positive terminal swings +/- around ground. In a balanced output the two terminals alternate +/- (i.e. both terminals alternate in polarity) and neither is grounded. You will typically find a small lightning symbol next to the terminals on amps that have this type of output configuration. I believe the SC-07 uses ICE amps and is in the same boat.


At line level using .1 LFE (sub) output from the preamp etc. there is no issue, but REL makes a lot of noise about using the high (speaker) level inputs to capture the sonic signature of the power amps and when connecting to the class D amp a proper connection must be made. There would be no difference for passive spe


By reviewing the online manual of the B1 it appears that in an unbalanced output the yellow and red wires are being used to pick up the positive (hot) terminals of the left and right speaker channels, the black can then be connected to either negative speaker terminal as they share a common ground. Unless of course you use mono blocks which have no common ground, so this is then picked up at the preamp. This configuration allows you to deliver signal information from both stereo channels to one sub.


Using the B1 with a balanced output configuration like most class D amps, it appears the yellow and red wires are used to input the balanced output (positive and negative) from a single amplifier channel. So from what I can tell, and is somewhat mentioned in the REL manual, you must use two subs in a stereo pair if feeding them with a balanced high level signal.


I am not sure if the input options on the B1 match exactly with your stadium II but am curious as to what the yellow and red wires connect to in your system? Your new cable looks fairly ordinary other than having an RCA terminated black wire to pick up a ground from your preamp. However, I have no idea what causes the lump at the end of the XLR connector (perhaps that's the unique part) but I can't see why Sumiko wants $150 for that cable.
 
#76 ·
Folks,


Is anyone using this REL spec cable from Signal Cable?

http://signalcable.com/relspeakon.html


I want to try this cable because it has spades for connection to the Amp verses the bare wire from the stock cable. I just prefer spades verses bare wire for hook-up.


I almost was ready to give up on my REL B2. I am not sure what I was thinking. I have always felt REL was one of the best for Stereo but I felt I wasn't getting enough for HT.


I went to audition another brand of sub last Friday and also listened to REL B1 and the B1 sounded fantastic for both HT and Stereo.


This tells me I need to continue to work on set-up in my own house and I did play around with placement yesterday and got some improvement.


I watched "The Wrestler" last night with a lot of 80's rock in the soundtrack and it sounded so damn good and I was reminded why I picked REL to begin with. Stereo has always been excellent.


So instead of putting my REL B2 up on Audiogon and going a different direction, I ordered a second REL B2
.


Set-up is so critical with these subs and it is probably my biggest weakness in regards to HT set-up. I need to really focus and be patient as I think these subs are worth it when dialed-in.


I can't wait to try dual B2's. My second won't be here for a couple of weeks.


If anyone has tried the Signal Cable, please let me know. Now that I will have two sub's to connect to my amp, I would like the spade connections. Came accross this cable by accident yesterday on Audiogon.


Thanks,


Rick
 
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