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post #1 of 33 Old 09-10-2008, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I've got a 2-channel setup now with Dali Helicon 400 mkIIs (which I love) but would like to get a new toy to continue building the system. What's the best musical sub to go with the Dalis? I'd like something that looks good with the Dalis' cherry finish too.

Anybody tried the Dali S600? It has a nice appearance but it's pricey compared to others on the market.

I've got a Denon PMA-2000AE amp, listen 90% to music/10% TV/DVD (no HT system, yet), any size sub is OK, pretty flexible on budget, have a standard living room to fill now (maybe 2500 cubic feet) but want something that can work in a larger room as well. I can feed the sub a full-spectrum pre-out from the amp with standard RCAs.

Also, as I'm totally new to subwoofers, should I plan on purchasing additional equipment as part of the deal to equalize the sub? Recommendations appreciated. I'm still wading through the whole topic of equalization but that's another story...

Thanks
Rick
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post #2 of 33 Old 09-11-2008, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtw View Post

I've got a 2-channel setup now with Dali Helicon 400 mkIIs (which I love) but would like to get a new toy to continue building the system. What's the best musical sub to go with the Dalis? I'd like something that looks good with the Dalis' cherry finish too.

Anybody tried the Dali S600? It has a nice appearance but it's pricey compared to others on the market.

I've got a Denon PMA-2000AE amp, listen 90% to music/10% TV/DVD (no HT system, yet), any size sub is OK, pretty flexible on budget, have a standard living room to fill now (maybe 2500 cubic feet) but want something that can work in a larger room as well. I can feed the sub a full-spectrum pre-out from the amp with standard RCAs.

Also, as I'm totally new to subwoofers, should I plan on purchasing additional equipment as part of the deal to equalize the sub? Recommendations appreciated. I'm still wading through the whole topic of equalization but that's another story...

Thanks
Rick

Dali is a bit player for speakers and subwoofers in the US market. If you are in the USA, there are much better choices in subwoofers than Dali. Your subwoofer doesn't have to be the same brand as your speakers. If you are in another country let us know what other brand of subwoofers you have to choose from.

Best Regards
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post #3 of 33 Old 09-11-2008, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply. Yes, I'm outside the US, in Japan. Most of the brands I see on this forum are not readily available from local retailers, but I'm OK with mail order. I hope to demo some units when I'm next back in the States. FYI some of the brands here, in addition to the major Japanese labels, include Elac, Audio Pro, Tangent, Tannoy, Dali, Highland Audio, B&W, Bose, Mackie, Monitor Audio, Infinity, JBL and Roland.
Best regards-
Rick
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post #4 of 33 Old 09-12-2008, 06:33 AM
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I have owned Dali Helicon 400's and I ran them with a JL Audio F-113. Great combo
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post #5 of 33 Old 09-12-2008, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtw View Post

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I'm outside the US, in Japan. Most of the brands I see on this forum are not readily available from local retailers, but I'm OK with mail order. I hope to demo some units when I'm next back in the States. FYI some of the brands here, in addition to the major Japanese labels, include Elac, Audio Pro, Tangent, Tannoy, Dali, Highland Audio, B&W, Bose, Mackie, Monitor Audio, Infinity, JBL and Roland.
Best regards-
Rick

Elac, Audio Pro, Tangent, Dali, Highland Audio, Mackie, Monitor Audio, Roland.

These brands are not discussed on this Forum because they do not sell enough to the USA home theater crowd.

Bose is considered a joke in the "serious" home theater crowd.

Of those you added, B&W's higher end models might satisfy you.

As mentioned by rydenfan, J L Audio F113 and F112 are excellent performers. For less money, any one of at least a dozen models from internet direct companies are popular.

AV123 MFW 15
SVS PC Ultra
Elemental Design A7S-450
Epik Tower
HSU ULS 15
HSU VTF-3HO
Epik Conquest
Elemental Design A5-350
SVS PB-12 Plus


There are many more that could be added.

It depends on how long you are going to be in Japan, what your budget is, and which, if any of the Internet Direct companies may be able to ship to Japan.

Alternatively, you may have to keep reading until you get a better sense of what to expect from subs of a certain cabinet size, design (sealed vs. porter), amp power, driver size.

Or, if you get a really good demonstration, you may just buy something that sounds good to you, is reasonably priced, and that you can return. We may not be familiar with it, but we just don't know how good some of the choices you have really are.
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post #6 of 33 Old 09-12-2008, 09:38 AM
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Dali actually sells pretty well in the US and has a pretty active thread in the speaker forum. I agree 100% about the other brands though. Dont forget about great companies like Harbeth and PMC as well...
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post #7 of 33 Old 09-12-2008, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Dali actually sells pretty well in the US and has a pretty active thread in the speaker forum. I agree 100% about the other brands though. Dont forget about great companies like Harbeth and PMC as well...

I guess I just can't be bothered with either Dali or Jamo. Apparently they are still sold in boutiques to those who don't know any better. What kind of resale value do you think that Dali and Jamo have?

Also, what does "sells pretty well" mean? Compared to what? Certainly not JBL, Infinity, and others.

Neither Dali nor Jamo is a stellar performer, unless you think they are a well kept secret. Dali and Jamo are for people who can't really afford B&W.
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post #8 of 33 Old 09-12-2008, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I guess I just can't be bothered with either Dali or Jamo. Apparently they are still sold in boutiques to those who don't know any better. What kind of resale value do you think that Dali and Jamo have?

Also, what does "sells pretty well" mean? Compared to what? Certainly not JBL, Infinity, and others.

Neither Dali nor Jamo is a stellar performer, unless you think they are a well kept secret. Dali and Jamo are for people who can't really afford B&W.

Stellar performer? Have you heard a set of Dali Helicon's? Is this a statement about number of sales or actual performance in someones home? Just confused on that statement/question. B&W sells a lot on name IMHO

To the OP - the internet direct brands mentioned earlier are heavily supported in this forum along with the JL's which I am really dying to hear.
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post #9 of 33 Old 09-12-2008, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I guess I just can't be bothered with either Dali or Jamo. Apparently they are still sold in boutiques to those who don't know any better. What kind of resale value do you think that Dali and Jamo have?

Also, what does "sells pretty well" mean? Compared to what? Certainly not JBL, Infinity, and others.

Neither Dali nor Jamo is a stellar performer, unless you think they are a well kept secret. Dali and Jamo are for people who can't really afford B&W.

Wow troll much?
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post #10 of 33 Old 09-12-2008, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

I have owned Dali Helicon 400's and I ran them with a JL Audio F-113. Great combo


1+


Djoel
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post #11 of 33 Old 09-13-2008, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks to all who have replied.

Rydenfan, Djoel -- thanks for mentioning the JL F-113. I was not yet familiar with that model but it looks like it might be a perfect fit for my needs (even with builtin single-channel auto equalization) and has stellar reviews. I'll definitely check that out for sure, plus some of the other models mentioned, next time I'm back. Too bad JL Audio doesn't do Internet sales and doesn't list any international distributors on its website though!!
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post #12 of 33 Old 09-13-2008, 09:13 AM
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rtjw - another sub maker to audition is danley sound labs tapped horn subs

i got the dts-20: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tappe...MODEL=DTS%2020
the paragraph is a very good description of the capability of this sub.

"This sub is heinously powerful, yet it is fast, detailed and exceptionally musical. Even though it is immensely powerful, the output is not the thing that hits you the most when first listening. What overwhelms people is the clarity. The DTS-20 has extremely low distortion and group delay. It is one of the few subs that simply does not mess up the midbass and extends the detail down all the way to the bottom octave. It is technically and sonically one of the most advanced subwoofer systems in existence." - http://www.thesoundbroker.com/Danley.htm

the other one that i like to have on my system someday is the th-50: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tappe...?MODEL=TH%2050
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post #13 of 33 Old 09-13-2008, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtw View Post

Thanks to all who have replied.

Rydenfan, Djoel -- thanks for mentioning the JL F-113. I was not yet familiar with that model but it looks like it might be a perfect fit for my needs (even with builtin single-channel auto equalization) and has stellar reviews. I'll definitely check that out for sure, plus some of the other models mentioned, next time I'm back. Too bad JL Audio doesn't do Internet sales and doesn't list any international distributors on its website though!!


I believe JL Audio have distributor in Europe, PM Manville Smith from JL to see if they are planing on selling their sub/speakers in the east...

Good luck

DJoel
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post #14 of 33 Old 09-25-2008, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by VectorLabs View Post

Wow troll much?

Not that his user-name would ever be a giveaway..

I have a set of Dali Ikon 6s..along with their best center and OnWall surrounds.
My retailer sold me those and did not even recommend their sub.

For the time being I purchased an open-box Velodyne DLS-5000R from him. The best thing about it is it sounds musical. Has a lot of oomph especially for my somewhat modest HT area. And it looks 'cool'. But extension below 30Hz is non-existent.

I am looking at Epik, ED, AV123, and a few others as options. Dalis are hardly dead. Very competitive speakers for music and HT. The Helicons are a masterpiece, but not cheap. Sound great with good upscale hardware too.
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post #15 of 33 Old 09-25-2008, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by videoaddikt View Post

Not that his user-name would ever be a giveaway..

I have a set of Dali Ikon 6s..along with their best center and OnWall surrounds.
My retailer sold me those and did not even recommend their sub.

For the time being I purchased an open-box Velodyne DLS-5000R from him. The best thing about it is it sounds musical. Has a lot of oomph especially for my somewhat modest HT area. And it looks 'cool'. But extension below 30Hz is non-existent.

I am looking at Epik, ED, AV123, and a few others as options. Dalis are hardly dead. Very competitive speakers for music and HT. The Helicons are a masterpiece, but not cheap. Sound great with good upscale hardware too.

I googled dali helicon and the first review said this:

"I bought Dali helicon to replace Jamo D590".

When I said that Dali and Jamo are essentially "off brands", I wasn't kidding. You don't have to know much to realize that the really good stuff starts with the B&W 802's. It's been that way for years now.

I ask again, what kind of resale value do you think Dali and Jamo have, especially compared to B&W 802?

Now that you have had time to experience the Velo 5000, you know that it is lacking in the bottom two octaves, 30-15 Hz, and 15-7.5 Hz. You are on the right track with internet direct subs. For about $1,200 you can get a major performer.

The review of the Helicon by Stereophile states:

"While Dali has maintained a relatively low profile in the US..."

It would be naive to think that Dali deliberatley restricts sales of its speakers. For $6,300 I would get a pair of B&W 802's.

Nothing has changed with Dali or Jamo over the years, they are both bit players in the overall speaker market in the USA, and are targeted to those who shop in boutiques, but can't afford B&W 802's, (among others).

I would venture to guess that more people buy Paradigm, Vanderstein, Theil, Revel, Aerial, Wilson and other boutique brands than buy Dali and Jamo combined.
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post #16 of 33 Old 09-26-2008, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I googled dali helicon and the first review said this:

"I bought Dali helicon to replace Jamo D590".

When I said that Dali and Jamo are essentially "off brands", I wasn't kidding. You don't have to know much to realize that the really good stuff starts with the B&W 802's. It's been that way for years now.

I ask again, what kind of resale value do you think Dali and Jamo have, especially compared to B&W 802?

Now that you have had time to experience the Velo 5000, you know that it is lacking in the bottom two octaves, 30-15 Hz, and 15-7.5 Hz. You are on the right track with internet direct subs. For about $1,200 you can get a major performer.

The review of the Helicon by Stereophile states:

"While Dali has maintained a relatively low profile in the US..."

It would be naive to think that Dali deliberatley restricts sales of its speakers. For $6,300 I would get a pair of B&W 802's.

Nothing has changed with Dali or Jamo over the years, they are both bit players in the overall speaker market in the USA, and are targeted to those who shop in boutiques, but can't afford B&W 802's, (among others).

I would venture to guess that more people buy Paradigm, Vanderstein, Theil, Revel, Aerial, Wilson and other boutique brands than buy Dali and Jamo combined.

WHO CARES?

Most people I know buy speakers based on how they sound, not how popular they are.

You look for support of your arguments by pulling statements out of context.
If you read the rest of the review you would find they are considered very fine speakers.

I purchased the Velo because it was an open box deal. It works fine for now and for the price I have no complaints. Plus, it does have a decent resale value which is important for something I had in mind to replace in the near future.
I don't buy strictly for resale.

I compared my Ikons with MA, Paradigm, B&W, and PSB in the same range, and found I like them better for the <$1750 I spent and my application. Plus I purchased their excellent Vokal 2 center and OnWall surrounds.

Go take your views over to the Dali thread. You might learn something.
Of course, larger companies supply more speakers and have more sales outlets. Including inferior speakers.
Based on your perspective, anything that cost less than a B&W 802 is junk.
Jensen makes a lot of speakers probably more than a lot of more respectful brands. So I guess that makes them better. Go have a listen!

Not that I know your taste in audio but if it's like your attitude, it likely sucks.
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post #17 of 33 Old 09-26-2008, 02:15 PM
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Guys, just ignore the troll. His posts are ridiculous and he has zero idea what he is talking about.
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post #18 of 33 Old 09-26-2008, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rydenfan View Post

Guys, just ignore the troll. His posts are ridiculous and he has zero idea what he is talking about.

Be nice, let's not discount the fact he can 'google'.
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post #19 of 33 Old 10-12-2008, 09:49 PM
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LMAO at Dali not being a stellar performer. Obviously you have never heard them. Admittedly they aren't for everyone, but to question their performance is silly.

B&W makes a great speaker, but I guarantee you Dali is in the same league. There are some aficionados I know, though, that would argue B&W doesn't deserve to be included in Dali's league.


Besides, B&W's are sold at the same boutique stores you bemoan at similarly bloated prices...


Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I guess I just can't be bothered with either Dali or Jamo. Apparently they are still sold in boutiques to those who don't know any better. What kind of resale value do you think that Dali and Jamo have?

Also, what does "sells pretty well" mean? Compared to what? Certainly not JBL, Infinity, and others.

Neither Dali nor Jamo is a stellar performer, unless you think they are a well kept secret. Dali and Jamo are for people who can't really afford B&W.

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post #20 of 33 Old 10-13-2008, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by conradjohnsonfan View Post

LMAO at Dali not being a stellar performer. Obviously you have never heard them. Admittedly they aren't for everyone, but to question their performance is silly.

B&W makes a great speaker, but I guarantee you Dali is in the same league. There are some aficionados I know, though, that would argue B&W doesn't deserve to be included in Dali's league.


Besides, B&W's are sold at the same boutique stores you bemoan at similarly bloated prices...

Thanks for reminding me of the challenge that Bob Carver took on many years ago. He made his $400 solid state amp sound exactly like those precious tube amps. He made his $400 solid state amp sound exactly like the $12,000 Conrad-Johnson Premier 5.

I bet those Dalis sound really great with a 3 watt single ended triode
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post #21 of 33 Old 10-29-2008, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


I bet those Dalis sound really great with a 3 watt single ended triode

Thanks for admitting you have no idea what they sound like under any condition.
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post #22 of 33 Old 10-29-2008, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by videoaddikt View Post

Thanks for admitting you have no idea what they sound like under any condition.

I have no interest in Dali or Jamo. Wouldn't touch either one. Not when you can get a pair of Magnapan 3.6's or a clean pair of used B&W 802D's.

Why don't you check Audiogon right now and see that a mint pair of Helcion 400 Mk II won't even fetch half price?

That is what I said to start with and I stand by it. Dali and Jamo have a real depreciation problem, and are bit players in the speaker market in this country.

Their subwoofers are not even mentioned in this section of the forum. Not one person answered the OPs question about the Dali S600 subwoofer. That is because they are bit players in the subwoofer market as well. Either that or Dali subs are another well-kept secret.
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post #23 of 33 Old 10-29-2008, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I have no interest in Dali or Jamo. Wouldn't touch either one. Not when you can get a pair of Magnapan 3.6's or a clean pair of used B&W 802D's.

Why don't you check Audiogon right now and see that a mint pair of Helcion 400 Mk II won't even fetch half price?

That is what I said to start with and I stand by it. Dali and Jamo have a real depreciation problem, and are bit players in the speaker market in this country.

Their subwoofers are not even mentioned in this section of the forum. Not one person answered the OPs question about the Dali S600 subwoofer. That is because they are bit players in the subwoofer market as well. Either that or Dali subs are another well-kept secret.

Anyone with any common sense would judge speakers by sound not by price or other off-tangent marketing theory.

As far as subs go, don't try to insult our intelligence even beyond your previous statements, you only further erode what little credibility you have left.

We are all well aware that manufacturers in the primary business of designing subwoofers in general make ones far superior to even the most reputable speaker brands. And they are generally more cost-effective to boot.
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post #24 of 33 Old 10-29-2008, 02:00 PM
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The Seatonsounds submersive, check to see if Mark ships to Japan.

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post #25 of 33 Old 10-29-2008, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videoaddikt View Post

Anyone with any common sense would judge speakers by sound not by price or other off-tangent marketing theory.

As far as subs go, don't try to insult our intelligence even beyond your previous statements, you only further erode what little credibility you have left.

We are all well aware that manufacturers in the primary business of designing subwoofers in general make ones far superior to even the most reputable speaker brands. And they are generally more cost-effective to boot.

Like I said, check Audiogon and see what kind of huge hit you take with bit players in the speaker market.

Dali is what it is, a bit player in the speaker market, and a joke in the subwoofer market in the US.
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post #26 of 33 Old 10-29-2008, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Like I said, check Audiogon and see what kind of huge hit you take with bit players in the speaker market.

Dali is what it is, a bit player in the speaker market, and a joke in the subwoofer market.

I respect the fact you have a right to an opinion, even if it is totally baseless.
Troll on!
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post #27 of 33 Old 10-29-2008, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by videoaddikt View Post

I respect the fact you have a right to an opinion, even if it is totally baseless.
Troll on!

I know a bit player in the speaker market when I see one. If you can provide one scintilla of evidence that Dali is more than a bit player in the speaker market, feel free to post it. I would be looking for things like market share, sales volume, number of retailers, sales rankings by price class, etc.

The real action is with B&W, Aerial, Revel, Wilson, AV123 Rocket. In fact, AV123 will be selling the LS9 which will be pretty similar to the Dali Megaline, except that the LS9 was heard at the Rocky Mountain Audio Festival and got rave reviews. The $55,000 Megaline is going nowhere. People have already placed orders for the $6,000 LS9.

Thanks in advance.
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post #28 of 33 Old 10-29-2008, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I know a bit player in the speaker market when I see one. If you can provide one scintilla of evidence that Dali is more than a bit player in the speaker market, feel free to post it. I would be looking for things like market share, sales volume, number of retailers, sales rankings by price class, etc.

The real action is with B&W, Aerial, Revel, Wilson, AV123 Rocket. In fact, AV123 will be selling the LS9 which will be pretty similar to the Dali Megaline, except that the LS9 was heard at the Rocky Mountain Audio Festival and got rave reviews. The $55,000 Megaline is going nowhere. People have already placed orders for the $6,000 LS9.

Thanks in advance.


Spyboy, I think you have seriously compromised this thread which had to with matching a sub with Dali Helicon speakers and the discussion centering on audio performance.
I apologize to other posters if I encouraged this dribble in any way.

Spyboy, if you really have an issue with Dali speakers, you need to address it on the Dali thread. Your theory, about sales volume, number of retailers, etc. may have some passing interest to someone, but I have serious doubts.

I think we are already getting our fill of baseless opinions and half-truths during an election year.
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post #29 of 33 Old 10-29-2008, 09:15 PM
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Yeah...until you can discount them with you ears as opposed to dicounting them by way of their popularity, you can pretty much SHUT IT. What a trolling tool...

Jason

Custom Built For The Win!
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post #30 of 33 Old 10-30-2008, 12:23 AM
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So I guess Dynaudio is another small player considering they are no where near as popular in the US as they are in the EU.

I have heard almost the entire Dali line up to the Helicon 800 MKII and B&W up to the 802D. Other than the 802D and up I have yet to hear a speaker from B&W that sounds better than the comparable Dali. 600 series vs Ikon, 700 series vs Mentor, 805/804/803 vs Helicon? You get a lot more for your money with Dali than you do with B&W.
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