Paradigm Reference Signature Sub 25 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1378 Old 11-15-2009, 04:30 PM
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The sub was on 120v line not the 240 I can now only imagine how it would sound on the 240v line. I don't think I will go and sample the sub 1 or 2 I am completely satisfied if I was going too it would be the sub2 but my condo has no room for that big boy.

My computer is down at home so I can't get the sub test material I used once its up I will list it on here

I am missing the sub25 right now I still have to listen to the submersive before I make my purchase, I'm waiting to hear back from the guy who has it so I can go over. Guys just go and listen but bring ur own stuff to test it

It is suppose to sound even better on the 240v line more power, bass etc.....

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post #182 of 1378 Old 11-18-2009, 09:28 AM
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Kenshin,

Please update with impressions of a comparo between submersive and the Paradigm 25. This one's gonna be really interesting to a lot of folks for sure.

Thanks,

Kenobi
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post #183 of 1378 Old 11-20-2009, 04:22 PM
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Hey I will let u know kenshin when I'm going to hear the submersive the sub 25 was awesome I went to the store where u said to go and I was blown away u are absolulty right how good it sounds

So when I get the ok to go and liisten to the submersive I will let u know so we can go up together

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post #184 of 1378 Old 11-26-2009, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kenobi View Post

Kenshin,

Please update with impressions of a comparo between submersive and the Paradigm 25. This one's gonna be really interesting to a lot of folks for sure.

Thanks,

Kenobi

I have been listening to my 2 new signature sub 25's for about two weeks. Impressions: Excellent sub: terrific impact, excellent depth, fast, detailed (for a sub) even on complex scenes-listen to, Flight of The Pheonix, storm/crash scene; the impact is fantastic, you really feel like you are in the plane, the entire room shakes on cue appropriately. This is not a great movie, but the sound is so well done it makes it very entertaining.
It would be interesting to compare Paradigm Signature Sub 25 to Mark Seaton's Submersive. As much as enjoy my new subs, I highly doubt the Sig. Signature 25 would compare favorably to the Seaton Submersive. The Submersive has a larger enclosure with TWO 15" woofers rather than just one.
Although the Signature 25 has a much more powerful amplifier than the Submersive, I don't think it would even come close to compensating for the second woofer and larger enclosure of the Submersive.
Unfortunately, for me, the Submersive is just a bit too large; It won't fit. For its size, the Signature sub 25 is a phenominal product.
I would be very interested to hear your comparison of the Signature Sub 25to the Seaton Submersive.
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post #185 of 1378 Old 11-26-2009, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

I have been listening to my 2 new signature sub 25's for about two weeks. Impressions: Excellent sub: terrific impact, excellent depth, fast, detailed (for a sub) even on complex scenes-listen to, Flight of The Pheonix, storm/crash scene; the impact is fantastic, you really feel like you are in the plane, the entire room shakes on cue appropriately. This is not a great movie, but the sound is so well done it makes it very entertaining.
It would be interesting to compare Paradigm Signature Sub 25 to Mark Seaton's Submersive. As much as enjoy my new subs, I highly doubt the Sig. Signature 25 would compare favorably to the Seaton Submersive. The Submersive has a larger enclosure with TWO 15" woofers rather than just one.
Although the Signature 25 has a much more powerful amplifier than the Submersive, I don't think it would even come close to compensating for the second woofer and larger enclosure of the Submersive.
Unfortunately, for me, the Submersive is just a bit too large; It won't fit. For its size, the Signature sub 25 is a phenominal product.
I would be very interested to hear your comparison of the Signature Sub 25to the Seaton Submersive.

I too am looking at the Seaton Submersive however im a little concerned with the quality of the driver and the amps used. Ive seen pictures of seaton products and the drivers do not look beefy as say the driver in this sub 25 or the Jl Audio Fathom F113. Then again I do not know anything when it comes to developing a speaker such as Mark Seaton. So I too would like to hear the comparison to the submersive.
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post #186 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I too am looking at the Seaton Submersive however im a little concerned with the quality of the driver and the amps used. Ive seen pictures of seaton products and the drivers do not look beefy as say the driver in this sub 25 or the Jl Audio Fathom F113. Then again I do not know anything when it comes to developing a speaker such as Mark Seaton. So I too would like to hear the comparison to the submersive.

Some thoughts on subs:

I have listened to the F113, F212 nice products. I did not do a one to one comparison with the sub 25. They are all detailed, fast subs. I think the two sub 25's have a bit more punch compared to the one F212. But I can't be certain since the room dimesions for each audition was not the same. Regarding quality of the parts, only the manufacturers really know the answer to this. They will all claim that their products are top quality. I have encountered very few complaints about malfunction or breakage of these products.

I would base my purchase on performance, size, esthetics. Seaton seems to have developed a 'cult' like following (through AVS). Apparently, his esthetics are improving. At $1995, his Submersive appears to be a bargain based on reviews that I have read. A direct comparison of the Submersive to Sub 25 would be interesting. Based on enclosure size and it's two 15" woofers, the Submersive should out perform the Sub 25 with respect to output and depth. Can it match Sub 25 with respect to speed, detail, accuracy, low distortion? Does it deliver clean tight base with no 'muddy over hang'? The answer is probably 'yes'. The large number of satisfied customers who have purchased the Submersive (through AVS exposure/discussion) seem knowledgeable.

Parardigm is a much larger company than Mark Seaton's. If something happens to Mark Seaton, who will stand behind the product and warranty the Submersive? On the other hand, Seaton puts his name on the product. I wouldn't put my name on a product unless I knew it was damn good.

I don't know why Mark Seaton hasn't established a website. He has been talking about creating one for years, and still no website. A website would help to explain a lot about his Submersive quality, (production, performance, specs.,photos, etc.). Using AVS to distribute marketing information of his product instead of developing his own website is very disconcerting. Why is he doing this; because it's free? I think it has reached the point that AVS should be charging Seaton for advertising space. AVS cannot replace the benefit of a robust website. A well designed official Seaton website would be especially helpful since it is impossible to audition the Submersive unless you have a friend who owns one. High quality, accurate, organized information is very important to the type of customer who would purchase a Seaton Submersive.

My main problem with the Submersive (beside the fact that I had no opportunity to audition it) is a size issue. It is too large for the space. The Sub 25 is only on inch wider than my previous 12" woofer sub (B&W 800 ASW). The height and depth are the same. Sub thoroughly out performs my old B&W sub in every criteria.

For its size, Sub 25 performance is terrific, and I am absolutely delighted with the product. Based on AVS comments/reviews, if I had the space, I probably would take a chance on the Submersive (after further analyzing AVS for problems/complaints of the Submersive).

But, Seaton really needs to stop using AVS threads/blogs to market his product and develop his own website.
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post #187 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by matjet View Post

Some thoughts on subs:

I have listened to the F113, F212 nice products. I did not do a one to one comparison with the sub 25. They are all detailed, fast subs. I think the two sub 25's have a bit more punch compared to the one F212. But I can't be certain since the room dimesions for each audition was not the same. Regarding quality of the parts, only the manufacturers really know the answer to this. They will all claim that their products are top quality. I have encountered very few complaints about malfunction or breakage of these products.

I would base my purchase on performance, size, esthetics. Seaton seems to have developed a 'cult' like following (through AVS). Apparently, his esthetics are improving. At $1995, his Submersive appears to be a bargain based on reviews that I have read. A direct comparison of the Submersive to Sub 25 would be interesting. Based on enclosure size and it's two 15" woofers, the Submersive should out perform the Sub 25 with respect to output and depth. Can it match Sub 25 with respect to speed, detail, accuracy, low distortion? Does it deliver clean tight base with no 'muddy over hang'? The answer is probably 'yes'. The large number of satisfied customers who have purchased the Submersive (through AVS exposure/discussion) seem knowledgeable.

Parardigm is a much larger company than Mark Seaton's. If something happens to Mark Seaton, who will stand behind the product and warranty the Submersive? On the other hand, Seaton puts his name on the product. I wouldn't put my name on a product unless I knew it was damn good.

I don't know why Mark Seaton hasn't established a website. He has been talking about creating one for years, and still no website. A website would help to explain a lot about his Submersive quality, (production, performance, specs.,photos, etc.). Using AVS to distribute marketing information of his product instead of developing his own website is very disconcerting. Why is he doing this; because it's free? I think it has reached the point that AVS should be charging Seaton for advertising space. AVS cannot replace the benefit of a robust website. A well designed official Seaton website would be especially helpful since it is impossible to audition the Submersive unless you have a friend who owns one. High quality, accurate, organized information is very important to the type of customer who would purchase a Seaton Submersive.

My main problem with the Submersive (beside the fact that I had no opportunity to audition it) is a size issue. It is too large for the space. The Sub 25 is only on inch wider than my previous 12" woofer sub (B&W 800 ASW). The height and depth are the same. Sub thoroughly out performs my old B&W sub in every criteria.

For its size, Sub 25 performance is terrific, and I am absolutely delighted with the product. Based on AVS comments/reviews, if I had the space, I probably would take a chance on the Submersive (after further analyzing AVS for problems/complaints of the Submersive).

But, Seaton really needs to stop using AVS threads/blogs to market his product and develop his own website.


I have to disagree with you on the part about Mark using AVS as a marketing tool. Yes, he does not at this point have a official website, but he does have his own forum site where you can get all the information on his products. I've really only seen him pop in and answer questions, and make comments about people setups that include his subs.
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post #188 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by KX250F View Post

I have to disagree with you on the part about Mark using AVS as a marketing tool. Yes, he does not at this point have a official website, but he does have his own forum site where you can get all the information on his products. I've really only seen him pop in and answer questions, and make comments about people setups that include his subs.

All the information I have on Mark Seaton's Submersive is through AVS. There simply is no other resrource for information on the Submersive. No website, no magazine ads, no official internet/magazine reviews (other than reviews on AVS). All Google queries bring me back to AVS.

AVS is the only avenue for consumer information on Mark's subs.

Let's face it, that is marketing.

Please don't misinterpret my comment as criticism against AVS or the Submersive. The Submersive is probably a great product and a bargain. The fact that this information is available on AVS is to the benefit of its members. Otherwise, very few people would know about the Submersive and have the opportunity to consider purchasing it over widely marketed products from companies like J.L. Audio and Paradigm.

Using AVS as the exclusive avenue disseminate information on the Submersive is a form of marketing. It appears to be the only marketing tool Mark uses other than word of mouth. It gives the submersive a 'back of the garage' manufacturing impression. I suspect his company has grown or is about to grow beyond this point, by now. Mark's customers and his products deserve an official, informative, organized website. There are lots of professional website development companies that can create informative, robust, interactive websites fairly quickly and inexpensively.
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post #189 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

All the information I have on Mark Seaton's Submersive is through AVS. There simply is no other resrource for information on the Submersive. No website, no magazine ads, no official internet/magazine reviews (other than reviews on AVS). All Google queries bring me back to AVS.

Hi matjet,

There is work being done on a website right now, although I know better than to state when I'll open it for public viewing, partially because I'm a bit to picky for my own good. As KX250F stated, I have had a forum I am readily available through for 2.5 years. While AVS will always rank high in Google searches due to traffic, a simple search for Seaton SubMersive doesn't pop it up until the 5th link, and the first 2 are to my forum.

Being an online company, there is no way around the fact that a much higher percentage of customers will be active on other forums. With AVS being the largest, and my having participated here years before Seaton Sound was established, this shouldn't be a surprise. Most all of the questions mentioned in the last few posts have been discussed in my forum. I understand that is not as efficient an option as a website, and hopefully when the website is live you and others will be able to more easily find such information. Only this past month, with the recent move to a larger facility and serious investment in inventory have we gotten ahead of SubMersive orders. I still hold delivery of product ordered above getting after new sales with a website, which is the primary reason the website has taken a back seat.

I do apologize if it seems that AVS has been used for marketing, as that is certainly not the intent. In fact, I recently started another sub-forum at my space to allow another business effort to not have to place primary information on non-commercial or other companies' forums. You are of course welcome on the Seaton Sound forum until the website is live.

Mark Seaton
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post #190 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 10:02 AM
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Hmmmm whats this... http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/

Product info on his site... http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3366417

Mark is an extremely straight forward guy and is on AVS to help other people, I have yet to ever see him try to "MARKET" his products here... He comes here to help answer questions regarding his products and is extremely knowledgeable in audio theory. I have learned tons and tons of stuff from reading his posts in the DIY area's as well as every other aspects of this forum.

I OWN zero of his products and have the utmost respect for his unwavering ethics !!!

I see your pretty new by your post count - if you had been here as long as I have - you would not question what Mark stands for.
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post #191 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Hmmmm whats this... http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/

Product info on his site... http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3366417

Mark is an extremely straight forward guy and is on AVS to help other people, I have yet to ever see him try to "MARKET" his products here... He comes here to help answer questions regarding his products and is extremely knowledgeable in audio theory. I have learned tons and tons of stuff from reading his posts in the DIY area's as well as every other aspects of this forum.

I OWN zero of his products and have the utmost respect for his unwavering ethics !!!

I see your pretty new by your post count - if you had been here as long as I have - you would not question what Mark stands for.

+1

I don't own any of his products either, but have a great deal of respect for how he posts. I've seen Mark go to significant lengths to compliment non Seaton product and to avoid overhype of his own, even tempering the comments from some of his customers.

I would certainly consider the SubM if space allowed, but it is a bit too large for my room. Would really like to hear it to see how much lower it goes than my current sub (JL F113) - I suspect it would be very impressive.
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post #192 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 11:19 AM
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Hi matjet,

There is work being done on a website right now, although I know better than to state when I'll open it for public viewing, partially because I'm a bit to picky for my own good. As KX250F stated, I have had a forum I am readily available through for 2.5 years. While AVS will always rank high in Google searches due to traffic, a simple search for Seaton SubMersive doesn't pop it up until the 5th link, and the first 2 are to my forum.

Being an online company, there is no way around the fact that a much higher percentage of customers will be active on other forums. With AVS being the largest, and my having participated here years before Seaton Sound was established, this shouldn't be a surprise. Most all of the questions mentioned in the last few posts have been discussed in my forum. I understand that is not as efficient an option as a website, and hopefully when the website is live you and others will be able to more easily find such information. Only this past month, with the recent move to a larger facility and serious investment in inventory have we gotten ahead of SubMersive orders. I still hold delivery of product ordered above getting after new sales with a website, which is the primary reason the website has taken a back seat.

I do apologize if it seems that AVS has been used for marketing, as that is certainly not the intent. In fact, I recently started another sub-forum at my space to allow another business effort to not have to place primary information on non-commercial or other companies' forums. You are of course welcome on the Seaton Sound forum until the website is live.

Hi Mark,

WOW. Information sure travels fast on AVS.

You have quite a dedicated following.

My remarks are simply an observation (partly due to frustration resulting from lack of resources with information about the Submersive), not crticism against you or AVS. I suspect when you do get your website up and running, and engage additional forms of marketing, you will be inundated with business (if that's not already the case).
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post #193 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 07:43 PM
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I am not a follower and do not own any of his products. I am just stating an observation if you will. If you notice, there isn't a single thread started by Seaton in regards to one of his products. All of the threads are started by happy owners just like every other manufacturer you see on here.
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post #194 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

I have been listening to my 2 new signature sub 25's for about two weeks. Impressions: Excellent sub: terrific impact, excellent depth, fast, detailed (for a sub) even on complex scenes-listen to, Flight of The Pheonix, storm/crash scene; the impact is fantastic, you really feel like you are in the plane, the entire room shakes on cue appropriately. This is not a great movie, but the sound is so well done it makes it very entertaining.
It would be interesting to compare Paradigm Signature Sub 25 to Mark Seaton's Submersive. As much as enjoy my new subs, I highly doubt the Sig. Signature 25 would compare favorably to the Seaton Submersive. The Submersive has a larger enclosure with TWO 15" woofers rather than just one.
Although the Signature 25 has a much more powerful amplifier than the Submersive, I don't think it would even come close to compensating for the second woofer and larger enclosure of the Submersive.
Unfortunately, for me, the Submersive is just a bit too large; It won't fit. For its size, the Signature sub 25 is a phenominal product.
I would be very interested to hear your comparison of the Signature Sub 25to the Seaton Submersive.

Hi again,

You have two sub 25's shouldn't that compare or out perform since it would be 2 15" drivers?? curious about that. I am just waiting for the ok so i can go and listen to the submersive, really excited to see how it performs with the materials i will be bringing if it beats the sub 25 then i will do the math see whats better in the end.

Since im in canada it will cost about $2700(submersive) or so if the dollar is good. So far like i said earlier the sub 25 sounded better than the F113 and the f113 sounded really good too but the sub25 beat it. Have you tried how loud you could go with it?

when i was at the show room we went as loud as we could we gave up half way it just kept going. The good thing is i am down to 2 subs thats it.

I wish the submersive would be reviewed already by some audio magazine, then they could rate it with the other top runners.

I will definitly let you know when i do the comparison, my computer should be up and running tomorrow, im using my brothers right now. So i will put the materials i will be using up here that i used so anyone can go and download them online.

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post #195 of 1378 Old 11-27-2009, 09:19 PM
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Hi again,

You have two sub 25's shouldn't that compare or out perform since it would be 2 15" drivers?? curious about that. I am just waiting for the ok so i can go and listen to the submersive, really excited to see how it performs with the materials i will be bringing if it beats the sub 25 then i will do the math see whats better in the end.

Since im in canada it will cost about $2700(submersive) or so if the dollar is good. So far like i said earlier the sub 25 sounded better than the F113 and the f113 sounded really good too but the sub25 beat it. Have you tried how loud you could go with it?

when i was at the show room we went as loud as we could we gave up half way it just kept going. The good thing is i am down to 2 subs thats it.

I wish the submersive would be reviewed already by some audio magazine, then they could rate it with the other top runners.

I will definitly let you know when i do the comparison, my computer should be up and running tomorrow, im using my brothers right now. So i will put the materials i will be using up here that i used so anyone can go and download them online.



Hi Kenshin-Himura

When I say the Submersive should outperform Sub 25 I meant one to one comparison, and I am referring to output. This is simply based on the fact that the Submersive has two 15" woofers and a larger enclosure than the Sub 25. I have never compared the Submersive to Sub 25 so who knows, I may be wrong. How they compare with respect to speed, tightness, detail, accuracy/distortion is impossible to determine without direct comparison. I would expect two Sub 25's to outperform one Submersive.

I have listened to the F113, the Sub 25 easily out performs the F113.

I am delighted with my Sub 25's, they are excellent performers. I have played them loud enough to shake the entire room (it feels like a Disney virtual reality ride in, Flight of The Phoenix, storm/crash scene) and still have not reached a maximum volume; no noticeable strain or distortion. I don't think I will reach a maximum volume with these two subs in my room. I run the subs on seperate dedicated 120v lines.

The submersive wasn't an option for me due to its size. If size is not a concern for you, I don't think you can go wrong with either choice.

Remember that a sub's performance will be heavily influenced by other equipment in addition to the room size/volume/dimensions. Also, proper calibration, EQ, phase set up will influence performance. The only way to do a fair comparison is in the same room, same location with the same equipment, same movie scenes, proper setup (all speakers limited to 80hz with all frequency below 80Hz and LFE directed to the sub(s) along with previously mentioned criteria). Since reatil stores do not sell the submersive, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to arrange a one to one comparison.

Let me know how the two subs compare. The audition may noy be ideal, but it should give you a good idea of how they compare. Try to focus on speed, tightness (quick start/stop without muddy overhang), detail, distortion, depth in addition to output. Also, check out build quality, tightness and quality of connections and dials/switches as well as fit/finish of the two products.

Good luck. Most importantly, have fun because that is what this is all about.
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post #196 of 1378 Old 11-28-2009, 02:00 AM
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Hi Kenshin-Himura

When I say the Submersive should outperform Sub 25 I meant one to one comparison, and I am referring to output. This is simply based on the fact that the Submersive has two 15" woofers and a larger enclosure than the Sub 25. I have never compared the Submersive to Sub 25 so who knows, I may be wrong. How they compare with respect to speed, tightness, detail, accuracy/distortion is impossible to determine without direct comparison. I would expect two Sub 25's to outperform one Submersive.

I have listened to the F113, the Sub 25 easily out performs the F113.

I am delighted with my Sub 25's, they are excellent performers. I have played them loud enough to shake the entire room (it feels like a Disney virtual reality ride in, Flight of The Phoenix, storm/crash scene) and still have not reached a maximum volume; no noticeable strain or distortion. I don't think I will reach a maximum volume with these two subs in my room. I run the subs on seperate dedicated 120v lines.

The submersive wasn't an option for me due to its size. If size is not a concern for you, I don't think you can go wrong with either choice.

Remember that a sub's performance will be heavily influenced by other equipment in addition to the room size/volume/dimensions. Also, proper calibration, EQ, phase set up will influence performance. The only way to do a fair comparison is in the same room, same location with the same equipment, same movie scenes, proper setup (all speakers limited to 80hz with all frequency below 80Hz and LFE directed to the sub(s) along with previously mentioned criteria). Since reatil stores do not sell the submersive, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to arrange a one to one comparison.

Let me know how the two subs compare. The audition may noy be ideal, but it should give you a good idea of how they compare. Try to focus on speed, tightness (quick start/stop without muddy overhang), detail, distortion, depth in addition to output. Also, check out build quality, tightness and quality of connections and dials/switches as well as fit/finish of the two products.

Good luck. Most importantly, have fun because that is what this is all about.

I would place them in the same size class as (Per published spec) the SubMersive is only 5" - 6" larger in all dim. I also like the fact that they are virtually vibration free because of their having their speakers opposed to one another. (There is talk of being able to stand a nickel on end while "shaking the house") I have two in ~2200 sq ft room and are using them as a platform for my L & R speakers.

Carl

--Carl
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post #197 of 1378 Old 11-28-2009, 06:36 AM
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I would place them in the same size class as (Per published spec) the SubMersive is only 5" - 6" larger in all dim. I also like the fact that they are virtually vibration free because of their having their speakers opposed to one another. (There is talk of being able to stand a nickel on end while "shaking the house") I have two in ~2200 sq ft room and are using them as a platform for my L & R speakers.

Carl

Only?
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post #198 of 1378 Old 11-28-2009, 08:02 AM
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Only?

My Sub 25's measure (based on direct measurement): 18W X 23D X 20H (8280 cubic inches)

Submersive: 24.5W X 17.5D X 25.5H (10821 cubic inces)

The enclosure of the Submersive has 23.5% greater volume than the enclosure of the Sub 25. That is a fairly substantial difference in enclosure volume. It must have a significant effect on performance.

Maybe there is an acoustic engineer out there who could explain in simple layman terms how and why the increased enclosure volume effects output and or frequency depth, and to what extent the enclosure volume difference effects performance in these two subs.

I would expect the out put of the Submersive to be greater than that of the Sub 25 due to increased enclosure volume and double the woofer sruface area, despite the much more powerful amp in the Sub 25.

For my alotted space, every inch counts. 18" -19" width is the maximum width available for a sub. That ruled out Submersive.

Comparison of the two subs in all performance areas would be very interesting. I look forward to hearing from Kenshin-Himura after his audition of the Submersive.
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post #199 of 1378 Old 11-28-2009, 12:12 PM
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I want to buy a custom submersive. One with an upgraded driver and amp. I have sent emails to Mark and no response. I guess he sells enough of the basic submersive. Oh well back to hunting.
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post #200 of 1378 Old 11-28-2009, 01:16 PM
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I want to buy a custom submersive. One with an upgraded driver and amp. I have sent emails to Mark and no response. I guess he sells enough of the basic submersive. Oh well back to hunting.

I don't think Mark Seaton runs a 'have it your way' operation. Customizing subs would drive up the cost dramatically. Specifically what changes are you requesting and why? From what I read, he makes a great product and sells it at a terrific price.
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post #201 of 1378 Old 11-28-2009, 03:51 PM
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I don't think Mark Seaton runs a 'have it your way' operation. Customizing subs would drive up the cost dramatically. Specifically what changes are you requesting and why? From what I read, he makes a great product and sells it at a terrific price.

If you can afford a better driver and amp then go for it right?
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post #202 of 1378 Old 11-28-2009, 04:19 PM
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Take it to the DIY community and you can build anything your hearts desire, even outperforming any of the subs listed in this thread....

As for info about the volume & amp performance of the Submersive, ask some questions to Mark in his thread.... The design of the size and amplifier used in the submersive is all for a reason. They are perfectly made for each other. It reaches its max performance as is... it doesn't need more power. He didn't just flip a coin to come up with this stuff !!! Trust me, that sub will knock your socks off, it did for me... And I have DIY drivers that almost cost as much as the submersive itself, and amps that are almost 4 times the power for each of them.....


Now lets not poison this thread anymore that was specific to the Paradigm Reference Signature Sub 25
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post #203 of 1378 Old 11-28-2009, 08:17 PM
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My Sub 25's measure (based on direct measurement): 18W X 23D X 20H (8280 cubic inches)

Submersive: 24.5W X 17.5D X 25.5H (10821 cubic inces)

The enclosure of the Submersive has 23.5% greater volume than the enclosure of the Sub 25. That is a fairly substantial difference in enclosure volume. It must have a significant effect on performance.

Maybe there is an acoustic engineer out there who could explain in simple layman terms how and why the increased enclosure volume effects output and or frequency depth, and to what extent the enclosure volume difference effects performance in these two subs.

I would expect the out put of the Submersive to be greater than that of the Sub 25 due to increased enclosure volume and double the woofer sruface area, despite the much more powerful amp in the Sub 25.

For my alotted space, every inch counts. 18" -19" width is the maximum width available for a sub. That ruled out Submersive.

Comparison of the two subs in all performance areas would be very interesting. I look forward to hearing from Kenshin-Himura after his audition of the Submersive.

Exactly. The Submersive is much larger than what the poster which I quoted is implying. Maybe in comparison to other subs with its low end capability it is considered "small", but it is far from small when used in home living applications.
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post #204 of 1378 Old 11-29-2009, 08:49 AM
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Maybe there is an acoustic engineer out there who could explain in simple layman terms how and why the increased enclosure volume effects output and or frequency depth, and to what extent the enclosure volume difference effects performance in these two subs.

You can't really compare the Submersive volume to the Paradigm and make any assumptions because they use different drivers. The proper enclosure size is determined by the individual drivers parameters.

There are drivers out there that wouldn't hit 20 Hz without an enclosure the size of a fridge. A different driver might have no problem hitting 20 Hz in a box the size of the Paradigm. Different drivers, different box requirements.

Also adding a second driver will generally require double the enclosure volume to get the same response (without EQ) so another reason the difference in volume for the submersive can't be compared to the paradigm.

However in general, depending on the driver, an increase of 23% in enclosure volume will improve the low end (below 30Hz) a db or so for the SAME single driver placed in a larger box. Making the enclosure larger also means that you will use more excursion.

Regards,

Dennis
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post #205 of 1378 Old 11-30-2009, 03:31 PM
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I have two in ~2200 sq ft room.....Carl

Yes, I hear you all the way out in Elsinore
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post #206 of 1378 Old 12-01-2009, 01:15 AM
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Kutlow,
I don't understand what is so bad about the drivers and amp in the Submersive. Have you seen what kind of output it has in the rooms of some owners who have posted FR graphs? Do you understand how efficient his design is? He doesn't need more power. Check out what "cheap" drivers can do in the right design by reading about designs by Seaton Sound, JTR and Danley Sound Labs. If Mark dressed up the drivers a little, would that impress you? Ha haa! Haven't been in the consumer audio threads for a while. This one really got me

You guys think the Submersive is a large design, check out Danley's DTS 10

David Budo
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post #207 of 1378 Old 12-01-2009, 07:46 AM
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Have a look at the following graph for the SubMersive at listening position.



125 dB at 36Hz, 110 dB at 16Hz, and 101 dB at 8Hz! There seems to be a suck-out around 15Hz which is room related.

Hi Kain

Very impressive graft. Do you have any measurements of the distortion level at 20 Hz and below?
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post #208 of 1378 Old 12-01-2009, 09:38 AM
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Hi Kain

Very impressive graft. Do you have any measurements of the distortion level at 20 Hz and below?

Sorry, it's not my own graph and I do not have the distortion levels.
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post #209 of 1378 Old 12-01-2009, 11:43 PM
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Kutlow,
I don't understand what is so bad about the drivers and amp in the Submersive. Have you seen what kind of output it has in the rooms of some owners who have posted FR graphs? Do you understand how efficient his design is? He doesn't need more power. Check out what "cheap" drivers can do in the right design by reading about designs by Seaton Sound, JTR and Danley Sound Labs. If Mark dressed up the drivers a little, would that impress you? Ha haa! Haven't been in the consumer audio threads for a while. This one really got me

You guys think the Submersive is a large design, check out Danley's DTS 10

yeah and some people think fat women are beautiful. lol. Like I said I want a custom build. For many people a single Fathom would be overkill. I had two and although nice I need more. I know enough that a standard submersive is barely better than a Fathom and thats from owners of both. So why would I sell my Fathoms to gain 5%? I wont. I want more. Oh and the Submersive has been out for a few years so it is due for a upgrade just as the Fathoms are. From what I heard JL is getting ready to put something new out. Maybe a F118. Now I may go with a Seaton Tranformer XL.
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post #210 of 1378 Old 12-01-2009, 11:56 PM
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Kutlow,
When a product is good, it's good. Upgrades aren't constantly needed. This is consumer audio thinking. Pro audio designs are sold without redesign for many years. If you're going to go big, the Terraform XL is a good choice to consider. Check out the Danley TH 50 as well. There's an example of one 15" driver doing things you never thought possible. That would be miles ahead of your fathoms.

David Budo
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