Paradigm Reference Signature Sub 25 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 1378 Old 11-12-2008, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone try one yet? Thoughts? Impressions?
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post #2 of 1378 Old 12-10-2008, 09:29 AM
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They began shipping today. A sub that can run on a 220v line sounds interesting to say the least. 3,000 watts sustained? Gotta hear it!
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post #3 of 1378 Old 12-10-2008, 10:57 AM
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Yea 3000 watts sustained with a peak of 7500 watts. 3in Peak to Peak. Retail of $3999.
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/12/09...ips-dives-dee/
Doesn't look too bad either.
On the site they say due to the powerful nature of this sub, the grill is not removable.
http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference...-4-20.paradigm

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post #4 of 1378 Old 12-10-2008, 11:49 AM
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Did anyone else notice that it does not appear to be a Servo-based subwoofer? Just lots of power and a big cone.

Did I mention the lots of power part?
Just from reading about it, it sounds like it'll part your hair at 15ft.

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post #5 of 1378 Old 12-10-2008, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes when I originally posted I thought the sub had already been released.

Interesting /dev/null!! I did not notice that the sub was not servo controlled until you mentioned something about it, I just assumed that it was!

Paradigm emailed me the PDF spec sheets for the SUB-25 and PBK-1.

Some tid bits:

-4 horsepower
-125 db output
-accurate to 9Hz
-it has no power transformer, (big transformers are heavy but the sub still weighs 114 pounds) the output stages are directly connected to the power line.
-37 pound magnet and a 3" peak to peak travel on the woofer
-new redesigned beefier cabinet construction
-up to ten positions can be measured with the perfect bass kit
-the PBK™ applies Correction to Peaks (modes) and Dips (anti-modes)

Anyways it looks very promising (especially with the perfect bass kit) and I am seriously thinking about buying one along with the PBK-1 without even hearing the system, or should a guy wait for the servo controlled version to come out? I would be upgrading from my current Servo-15 (which I love) and I would definitely run 240V to the new Sub 25.

I don't think Paradigm will mind me attaching the PDFs.
s

 

SUB-25_PDS.pdf 337.373046875k . file

 

PBK1_PDS.pdf 389.1513671875k . file
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post #6 of 1378 Old 12-11-2008, 06:19 AM
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They kinda screwed up on the power requirements... That should read 20 amp circuit on a 220v line, and a 30amp circuit on a 110v circuit..

"Due to the incredibly high power and tremendous output the SUB 25's grille is non-removable." Give me a freakin break..

No replacement for displacement...
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post #7 of 1378 Old 01-02-2009, 07:25 PM
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I'm curious as to why this sub hasn't had more buzz. From the specs, it looks like it will eat most subs out there. Is it the price? Maybe... Personally, I'm interested in it and the PBK-1.

I think balanced down to 9hz is freaking insane!

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post #8 of 1378 Old 01-02-2009, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

I'm curious as to why this sub hasn't had more buzz. From the specs, it looks like it will eat most subs out there. Is it the price? Maybe... Personally, I'm interested in it and the PBK-1.

I think balanced down to 9hz is freaking insane!

For 4k the thing better blow me cook me dinner and wash the car.

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post #9 of 1378 Old 01-02-2009, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

I'm curious as to why this sub hasn't had more buzz. From the specs, it looks like it will eat most subs out there. Is it the price? Maybe... Personally, I'm interested in it and the PBK-1.

I think balanced down to 9hz is freaking insane!

Read up a bit, and you'll know why.

Looking at the previous Paradigm Signature sub's performance, this sub has to be a lot better to be able to compete with ID sub's performance like the SVS PB13 Ultra, Epik Conquest, and etc.

9Hz doesn't mean it will have usable output at 9Hz. No single commercial subwoofer can reproduce a 9Hz tone at usable volume (110dB). It also doesn't say whether it is flat to 9Hz, which is impossible without EQ. It can be 15dB down at 9 Hz, which is not so "good".
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post #10 of 1378 Old 01-02-2009, 09:24 PM
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If it can be flat down to 9hz, which I'm hoping for, it will be amazing. I don't think they'd advertise 9hz DIN, with a 15hz roll off. I could be naïve, but that would make them look pretty foolish, especially if its going to be reviewed. I'm hoping for these to be honest numbers because I want a sealed sub that's really good for home theater. This is why I keep looking at the jl audio subs. But I'll wait to listen to it and hope some reviews are available by magazines and members like Craigsub. Here's hoping all that power will help those numbers be accurate. Just imagine if it achieves 9hz at -3db!

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post #11 of 1378 Old 01-03-2009, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

If it can be flat down to 9hz, which I'm hoping for, it will be amazing. I don't think they'd advertise 9hz DIN, with a 15hz roll off. I could be naïve, but that would make them look pretty foolish, especially if its going to be reviewed. I'm hoping for these to be honest numbers because I want a sealed sub that's really good for home theater. This is why I keep looking at the jl audio subs. But I'll wait to listen to it and hope some reviews are available by magazines and members like Craigsub. Here's hoping all that power will help those numbers be accurate. Just imagine if it achieves 9hz at -3db!

There are a few ways to look at this:

1. Simple physics will tell you that is impossible. No single 15'' driver in a sealed enclosure can be -3dB at 9Hz without massive EQ boost at the low end.

2. They don't tell you anything about its 9Hz capability. They just said it can reach 9Hz. A 1'' tweeter can produce 9Hz, but at what SPL?

3. What if it's -3dB at 9Hz at 50dB? A subwoofer need to produce 110dB at 9Hz for useable 9Hz output. I can tell you that by rough estimate, it will take at least 5 SUB25 to produce 9Hz at 110dB.

I'm sure the SUB25 will be a fantastic sub, but the price/performance ratio is nowhere near ID sub's. I'm not even sure if it can outperform the SVS PB13 Ultra, an example of an excellent ID sub.
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post #12 of 1378 Old 01-03-2009, 05:34 AM
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I'll keep my dual Ultras!
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post #13 of 1378 Old 01-03-2009, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chengbin View Post

3. What if it's -3dB at 9Hz at 50dB? A subwoofer need to produce 110dB at 9Hz for useable 9Hz output. I can tell you that by rough estimate, it will take at least 5 SUB25 to produce 9Hz at 110dB.

I'm sure the SUB25 will be a fantastic sub, but the price/performance ratio is nowhere near ID sub's. I'm not even sure if it can outperform the SVS PB13 Ultra, an example of an excellent ID sub.

I think if your room is the size of my bathroom, it could be possible.... but in my 8200^3 room - I don't care what 15" your running, it aint ever gunna be enough.

I call BS on Paradigms marketing hype...

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I'll keep my dual Ultras!

Good Call....
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post #14 of 1378 Old 01-03-2009, 09:25 PM
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I think it will out perform the ultra 13, but the price will keep the ultra ahead in most eyes. I was really considering getting the ultra 13, but I'm really set on getting a sealed sub. I just like the sonic qualities. At the same time I love movies, and feeling that super deep bass beat my body up. This is why I'm so excited about this sub. I wonder if I'm the only one. Hopefully not. I love paradigm speakers, and I hope they can produce a world class sub. Although my dream theater would have triad inroom platinums. But, I can't afford those now.

David Budo
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post #15 of 1378 Old 01-04-2009, 05:18 AM
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A superbly designed ported sub, like the PB13, will sound as good, if not better, than a sealed sub.

Read this. Read through all if you want, but post 1, 7, and 9 are the most significant.

http://www.***************.com/fusio...d/138686/tp/1/
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post #16 of 1378 Old 01-04-2009, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chengbin View Post

A superbly designed ported sub, like the PB13, will sound as good, if not better, than a sealed sub.

Read this. Read through all if you want, but post 1, 7, and 9 are the most significant.

http://www.***************.com/fusio...d/138686/tp/1/

That link also shows you how good a sealed sub can be (re: JL113). I think this is more of what Paradigm has its sights set on. With the PBK, it has the potential of sounding extremely good in real world situations with good ease of setup too. I'm looking forward to seeing what this sub can do, the high voltage option is kind of intriguing, it's definitely a new innovation that maybe inspire other sub makers to do the same.

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post #17 of 1378 Old 01-04-2009, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chengbin View Post

A superbly designed ported sub, like the PB13, will sound as good, if not better, than a sealed sub.

Read this. Read through all if you want, but post 1, 7, and 9 are the most significant.

http://www.***************.com/fusio...d/138686/tp/1/

Thanks for the link. It was a really good idea. I wonder if they got together again for the eq, same position, treated room test. From what I read though, it seems that the price was the final ticket to victory. Output and quality were almost the same between the f113 and the pb13. Output going to to the ultra and quality going to the fathom, and the quality is what I'm interested in. I've been in a room with 4 subs and the output was great, but it wasn't as tight as I'd like. But I will say that svs did do a fantastic job with that sub. The amp needs to be replaced from the sounds of it. I would like to hear one properly set up. If anyone in the Toronto, GTA area is willing to let me audition it in their home, I'll bring the wine(or beverage of choice).

Question. Let's say the SUB 25 can't do 9hz at 110db, but it does at 100db. Are there any subs that can do that? I'm just asking. I haven't done any measurements to know. With all that power available and a 3 inch excursion, don't you think that would help its chances?

David Budo
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post #18 of 1378 Old 01-04-2009, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Thanks for the link. It was a really good idea. I wonder if they got together again for the eq, same position, treated room test. From what I read though, it seems that the price was the final ticket to victory. Output and quality were almost the same between the f113 and the pb13. Output going to to the ultra and quality going to the fathom, and the quality is what I'm interested in. I've been in a room with 4 subs and the output was great, but it wasn't as tight as I'd like. But I will say that svs did do a fantastic job with that sub. The amp needs to be replaced from the sounds of it. I would like to hear one properly set up. If anyone in the Toronto, GTA area is willing to let me audition it in their home, I'll bring the wine(or beverage of choice).

Question. Let's say the SUB 25 can't do 9hz at 110db, but it does at 100db. Are there any subs that can do that? I'm just asking. I haven't done any measurements to know. With all that power available and a 3 inch excursion, don't you think that would help its chances?

The only bad thing about that review is that they tested the PB13 in 10Hz mode. 15Hz mode is SVS's best mode because it gives up 1-2dB output above 20Hz for 10dB more output in around 15Hz range. GP tests have shown that the 10Hz mode gives 0.5Hz more extensive at a huge loss of output. GP tests show that the PB13 have about 6dB more output than the F113 starting below 40Hz.

Truthfully, while the F113 is a "better" music sub, the difference is splitting hairs. Unless you really listen for it, you won't tell a difference.

100dB at 9Hz is impossible as well. It might barely exceed 100dB at 20Hz at best. It will produce 90-92dB at best at 9hz.

Dbuudo07, don't worry about this 9Hz stuff, it won't matter. If you have a sub that can do 15Hz and up really well, then you're done. For true 10Hz stuff, you must go DIY (IB subwoofers). The return is not worth it IMO since there is barely any content with 10Hz.
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post #19 of 1378 Old 01-04-2009, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by chengbin View Post

The only bad thing about that review is that they tested the PB13 in 10Hz mode. 15Hz mode is SVS's best mode because it gives up 1-2dB output above 20Hz for 10dB more output in around 15Hz range. GP tests have shown that the 10Hz mode gives 0.5Hz more extensive at a huge loss of output. GP tests show that the PB13 have about 6dB more output than the F113 starting below 40Hz.

Truthfully, while the F113 is a "better" music sub, the difference is splitting hairs. Unless you really listen for it, you won't tell a difference.

100dB at 9Hz is impossible as well. It might barely exceed 100dB at 20Hz at best. It will produce 90-92dB at best at 9hz.

The Ultra slams in 20Hz mode! The tunablilty of this sub really makes it stand out too.
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post #20 of 1378 Old 01-04-2009, 04:12 PM
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I'm not saying 20Hz mode sucks, I'm sorry if you misinterpret my comment.
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post #21 of 1378 Old 01-04-2009, 04:39 PM
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I'm not saying 20Hz mode sucks, I'm sorry if you misinterpret my comment.

Not at all. Just adding the comment. You get four subs in one.
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post #22 of 1378 Old 01-04-2009, 07:10 PM
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$3K.......that buys a trunk full of DIY....I had to do it.

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post #23 of 1378 Old 02-02-2009, 10:28 AM
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Anyone seen this sub yet? Or better yet, have one? I think it could be had for about $3k. Not bad at all. I currently have the Servo 15 v2 and love it. But for a little more, wondering what this sub can do?
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post #24 of 1378 Old 02-02-2009, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by HDVidGuy View Post

Anyone seen this sub yet? Or better yet, have one? I think it could be had for about $3k. Not bad at all. I currently have the Servo 15 v2 and love it. But for a little more, wondering what this sub can do?

I'm wondering the same. I think the street price will be in the mid to high $3k.

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post #25 of 1378 Old 02-03-2009, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

That link also shows you how good a sealed sub can be (re: JL113). I think this is more of what Paradigm has its sights set on. With the PBK, it has the potential of sounding extremely good in real world situations with good ease of setup too. I'm looking forward to seeing what this sub can do, the high voltage option is kind of intriguing, it's definitely a new innovation that maybe inspire other sub makers to do the same.

I hope other sub makers don't follow suit on this. I don't want to have to rewire my house and have electrical run just for a subwoofer upgrade.
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post #26 of 1378 Old 02-03-2009, 12:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Question. Let's say the SUB 25 can't do 9hz at 110db, but it does at 100db. Are there any subs that can do that? I'm just asking.

The Epik Conquest measured almost 104 dB's at 12 Hz (by Tom Nousaine) in a massive 7500 cubic ft room at a 2 m distance. This is the most powerful subwoofer ever tested by Tom Nousaine.

I have my doubts that the Paradigm sub will muster any perceivable output down to 9 Hz. It might measure some output at 9 Hz but I don't think it will matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chengbin View Post

100dB at 9Hz is impossible as well. It might barely exceed 100dB at 20Hz at best. It will produce 90-92dB at best at 9hz.

100 dB's at 9 Hz might be unattainable but certainly not at 20 Hz. Certainly not in an average sized room (ie not 7500 cu ft) unless it's in a gymnasium. Now I may be the poster boy for making theoretical claims based on extrapolating test data, but you can't be certain that it will reach "90-92 dB's at best at 9 Hz" either. In what size room and what distance from source are we talking ?

It actually could perform pretty darn well for all we know in the right sized room with a transfer function complimenting the 2nd-order roll-off of the design [technical cap on]. It obviously will have decent amounts of EQ to shape the response curve down low. Doesn't mean it will have low distortion down low but it might not be as shabby as you think.

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post #27 of 1378 Old 02-03-2009, 01:02 PM
 
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With all that power available and a 3 inch excursion, don't you think that would help its chances?

A 4 horsepower amp and 3 inch excursion sounds mightily impressive and it is, but look at it this way. That power and displacement is required to achieve the necessary equalization to shape the response curve down low. If it is to achieve low extension with low distortion (in a sealed box) then high displacement is really a necessity. I'm sure it'll be a great performer though.

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post #28 of 1378 Old 03-07-2009, 04:37 AM
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I just saw a blurb in the "Coming Attractions" in the April 2009 Home Theater magazine (page 22).

As usual there has been an AVS thread on this for months.
It does suggest to me (along with a blurb on a 30amp power conditioner on the same page) that I will have to re-think power connections on any future HT projects (currently 15a and 20a lines).

Mike

PS - Has CraigSub said anything about testing?
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post #29 of 1378 Old 03-09-2009, 01:27 PM
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I bought one of these units (Serial #58) and have been running an A-B comparison with my Velodyne F-1800R 18" sub maufactured in Nov. of 1997.

I am operating the unit on 120 volts.

Initial impression is I cannot tell a difference. I want the Signature to sound better to justify its purchase, but I cannot do that at present. I am strictly classical music, and I haven't played my TELARC SACD's yet.

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post #30 of 1378 Old 03-09-2009, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mikey mo View Post

Initial impression is I cannot tell a difference. I want the Signature to sound better to justify its purchase, but I cannot do that at present. I am strictly classical music, and I haven't played my TELARC SACD's yet.

I'm shocked.

Have you tried listening to other type of music? Maybe the grunt of the SUB 25 will be more obvious.
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