Premier Acoustic PA-120 - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 11:16 AM
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FWIW, there are 18 pages to this thread and these are the first posts suggesting that the sub isn't powerful enough. Perhaps the room is huge, or the sub needs broken in, or the placement adjusted?
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post #542 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 11:21 AM
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I'm running an Onkyo SR606 in a 5.1 setup. The Subwoofer Pre Out is the only way to hook up the SR606 to the PA-120 RCA input (white). My front towers have side firing 8" woofers so, I may need to figure out the phase part of it on my sub; It's currently at 0. I have my PA-120 on an Auralex GRAMMA, and that tamed a lot of the boominess when I turned up the volume. However, the hit wasn't as hard but did sound a lot smoother and still went really deep. I may still want to play around with placement more. The following Frequency settings work for me, but you may want to check the specs on your speakers and do some listening on your own. Also, I did not include any distance and DB values since it will be different in your setup as well.

Receiver Settings - Sub: Yes, Front: 40Hz, Center: 80Hz, Surround: 120Hz, SurroundRear: None, Sub LPFofLFE: 120Hz (Double Bass is not available since my Fronts are not Full Range and are rated only 40Hz up)

Sub Settings - The knob on my volume is at the half way mark (12 o'clock), phase at 0, crossover all the way up (From what I've been told the LPFofLFE setting on the receiver will restrict this to the .1 track which contains the Bass from 120Hz down according to my setting. So setting the crossover all the way up on the sub is really kind of like setting it to 120Hz; in theory, there should be no difference setting it from 120Hz to 200Hz, but setting it all the way up will make sure you're not cutting it off too early from the 120Hz down)

When watching movies, I turn up the volume knob on my sub to about 1-2 o'clock depending on how much more bass I want. I'm pretty happy with the setup.
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post #543 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lui_boy View Post

I'm running an Onkyo SR606 in a 5.1 setup. The Subwoofer Pre Out is the only way to hook up the SR606 to the PA-120 RCA input (white). My front towers have side firing 8" woofers so, I may need to figure out the phase part of it on my sub; It's currently at 0. I have my PA-120 on an Auralex GRAMMA, and that tamed a lot of the boominess when I turned up the volume. However, the hit wasn't as hard but did sound a lot smoother and still went really deep. I may still want to play around with placement more. The following Frequency settings work for me, but you may want to check the specs on your speakers and do some listening on your own. Also, I did not include any distance and DB values since it will be different in your setup as well.

Receiver Settings - Sub: Yes, Front: 40Hz, Center: 80Hz, Surround: 120Hz, SurroundRear: None, Sub LPEofLFE: 120Hz (Double Bass is not available since my Fronts are not Full Range and are rated only 40Hz up)

Sub Settings - The knob on my volume is at the half way mark (12 o'clock), phase at 0, crossover all the way up (From what I've been told the LPEofLFE setting on the receiver will restrict this to the .1 track which contains the Bass from 120Hz down according to my setting. So setting the crossover all the way up on the sub is really kind of like setting it to 120Hz; in theory, there should be no difference setting it from 120Hz to 200Hz, but setting it all the way up will make sure you're not cutting it off too early from the 120Hz down)

When watching movies, I turn up the volume knob on my sub to about 1-2 o'clock depending on how much more bass I want. I'm pretty happy with the setup.

Thanks Lui, I'll try to dedicate some times and play around it, also I'll try your suggested setting and I'll post later...
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post #544 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 11:59 AM
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I just read all 18pgs of this thread last night, and ordered one. My main HT has an MFW-15, so I'm probably expecting too much for this to come anywhere near it's capabilities, but for $230 I can't go wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lui_boy View Post

Receiver Settings - Sub: Yes, Front: 40Hz, Center: 80Hz, Surround: 120Hz, SurroundRear: None, Sub LPEofLFE: 120Hz (Double Bass is not available since my Fronts are not Full Range and are rated only 40Hz up)

I'm no expert, but from my car audio days, I've seen a loss of bass due to phase cancellation when the sub and the mains are sharing duty reproducing the same frequencies. You've got your mains at high pass at 40hz and your sub at 120hz. Is this acceptable? I'd think you'd want to pick something inbetween, like 80hz so there's no overlap? Again, I'm no expert.
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post #545 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 12:05 PM
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Quote:


You've got your mains at high pass at 40hz and your sub at 120hz.

the sub LFE setting of 120Hz is not a crossover and doesn't have anything to do with bass management. It's a low-pass filter for the LFE channel only. Anything above that LFE LPF doesn't go anywhere, it disappears, so Audyssey always recommends this be set to 120Hz so you don't lose anything in the LFE channel.

The redirected bass from the mains is controlled by the actual crossover settings you put on the speakers.

You are correct, however, in that sub position and resultant phase cancellation issues can have a huge effect on the perceived bass response.

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post #546 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You are correct, however, in that sub position and resultant phase cancellation issues can have a huge effect on the perceived bass response.

So potentially, Onkyo's Double Bass feature could be self-defeating. The fronts of my mains and sub are aligned. I should have no such problem, correct? But if I move the sub to, say, a perpendicular wall I might. And if it was on the same wall, a 90ยบ shift could change everything?

Sorry, I think I'm answering my own questions. I had never considered this possibility and am thinking it through.
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post #547 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 12:37 PM
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the only way to know is to try. and, yes, sometimes the "double bass" setting makes the bass WORSE if you get phase cancellations / nulls.

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post #548 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

the only way to know is to try. and, yes, sometimes the "double bass" setting makes the bass WORSE if you get phase cancellations / nulls.

But it is the same with any stereo setup, except that a sub is more likely to be in an odd location in relation to the mains?
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post #549 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 01:00 PM
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true. proper subwoofer placement and "blending" is notoriously difficult, that's why you can find dozens of articles on it with a quick google search. Unfortunately, however, most of us don't have a lot of placement flexibility with our subs (WAF etc). Your best bet is a really good subwoofer and setting your speakers to "small", but many people for some reason feel cheated or something when they are told to put their large main speakers at an 80Hz crossover. "Double bass" sounds cool, and may work for your setup, but it's generally not recommended.

This problem is one of the biggest benefits of Audyssey MultEQ, since so much of the processing horsepower is dedicated to filtering/EQ'ing the bass, and it also sets the phase/delay properly.

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post #550 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You are correct, however, in that sub position and resultant phase cancellation issues can have a huge effect on the perceived bass response.

Agreed! And I'm still playing around with the positioning and phase, etc. Just too lazy to move the sub around and get it just right. I know I don't have it set up close to perfect just yet but it doesn't stop me from enjoying how it currently sounds.
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post #551 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 01:06 PM
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From what I've read in the audio setup threads and from THX is that ALL speakers are set to small (which is 80 and above?) and the sub set to 80, that's how I setup mine. The PA - 120 rumbles. Wouldn't having your sub set to 120 pickup midrange and highs

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post #552 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 01:28 PM
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I started typing questions, but several others have beat me to it. I'm very interested SaltwaterCat's question because that is how my main HT is setup.

Quote:


Your best bet is a really good subwoofer and setting your speakers to "small", but many people for some reason feel cheated or something when they are told to put their large main speakers at an 80Hz crossover.

My speakers (Dynaudio 122c's and center) are set to small (yes feeling cheated) and at 80hz HP, and my MFW-15 is set at 80hz LP. If I set the sub to 120hz, will I be causing cancellation between the overlap of 80-120hz? Or is that just a tradeoff, and where your mention of proper sub positioning comes in?

Batpig, thank you for taking the time to educate.
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post #553 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 02:00 PM
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Wouldn't having your sub set to 120 pickup a lot of midrange and highs

No, that's only the second bass octave. 40-80Hz approximately the first octave (low bass), 80-160 approx. is mid-bass. Highs are way up in the kHz region.

Quote:


If I set the sub to 120hz, will I be causing cancellation between the overlap of 80-120hz?

No, there will be no cancellation. The key thing to understand is that the LFE channel is not the same thing as the "subwoofer channel". The LFE channel is a discrete low-frequency effect channel that ONLY goes to the subwoofer. Even if you have a "double bass" setting on the receiver, the LFE only goes to the subwoofer.

The subwoofer gets two types of signals -- the LFE track, and any redirected/doubled bass from the main channels. So let's take a simple 2.1 setup. If you set your fronts to "large" and put "double bass" on, your fronts will play the full range, and the subwoofer will double up the bass that the speakers are playing. That's where the possibility of phase cancellation comes into play. This is "redirected" bass from the main speakers. Plus, the subwoofer will play the dedicated LFE channel, but that part only goes to the sub.

Again, the LFE track ONLY goes to the subwoofer, ever. The LFE track starts rolling off above 80Hz, and then has a hard cap of 120Hz. If you set the LPF for the LFE to 80Hz, you are cutting off the LFE channel above 80Hz, and losing information because it doesn't go anywhere else! It isn't a "cross over" so that information from 80-120 isn't redirected anywhere, it just disappears.... thus, there is nothing to cancel!

So while the THX standard recommendation of 80Hz all around applies to all the actual crossovers, and is a good rule of thumb for most systems, it is important to understand that the LPF setting for the LFE is NOT part of this "bass management" system and you should just set to 120Hz, or you will not be hearing the full LFE channel.

Here's a good article, if you google "LFE channel" you get lots of interesting info:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...pril-2000.html

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post #554 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 03:49 PM
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I already own this PA-120 but have looking to get a second sub to pair with it. I have a friend with a polk psw-10 he's offering for $75. Would it make any sense to pair the PA-120 with a smaller sub? Or would this work out well? Should you ideally pair the PA-120 with something of similar capabilities?
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post #555 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 03:50 PM
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Generally if you want to run dual subs, they should be as similar as possible. For $75 you could give it a shot, but the best bet is twin PA-120's.

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post #556 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 06:00 PM
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I got mine about 5 hours ago, and am disappointed. Considering I am coming from a 70 watt 6.5" Yamaha, that's pretty bad!

I plugged it in, set the sub is at volume +6, phase to 0 and frequency at max; then ran Audyssey MultEQxt, set the front to small and LFE only to the sub. Crossover is at 80hz and the LFE channel is set to +15db (max setting).

I then ran frequency sweeps and specific incremental 20-80hz test tones. At 25/30/35 hz test tones, it was barely putting out a peep. During the sweep, it started to rumble, nicely at that and started shaking my (all concrete) condo enough to put a smile on my face, finally!

I then watched Transformers, and the Ironhide scene left my wife and I cold. I ran 2 demo dvd's, one specifically created for LFE channel testing, and nothing - literally . I had to put my ear to it to hear anything. I even tried a new cable, just in case. My room is 2700cu/ft, which should be no problem for this sub; which is corner loaded. I might have a lull in the room at that spot, but the Yammy put out more ooophm then this bad boy.

It is an impressive size, and indeed weight in at 56lbs.

I'll be calling Eric tomorrow. To be continued.
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post #557 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 06:16 PM
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sounds like it's possibly defective. what happens when you run manual test tones built into the Denon? the subwoofer channel should be rumbling good if functioning right. Even if it's a little underpowered for the room, you should still hear it!!

as an FYI, that "+15dB" setting for the sub only affects the analog multichannel inputs, it doesn't do anything for any other input or surround mode. It's used to correct for an SACD player or other external multichannel source that doesn't do the proper boost on the LFE track when outputting multichannel analog.

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post #558 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 07:24 PM
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I'd have you know that my PA-120 is an absolute beast! You're in the possession of a faulty subwoofer, my friend.


Edit - and why is it that nearly every gripe in this thread is coming from people with Onkyo 606, 706, and 806s? I have a Sony DG720 w/ HDMI LPCM 7.1 and this thing belts it out.
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post #559 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinstripe View Post

I got mine about 5 hours ago, and am disappointed. Considering I am coming from a 70 watt 6.5" Yamaha, that's pretty bad!

I plugged it in, set the sub is at volume +6, phase to 0 and frequency at max; then ran Audyssey MultEQxt, set the front to small and LFE only to the sub. Crossover is at 80hz and the LFE channel is set to +15db (max setting).

I then ran frequency sweeps and specific incremental 20-80hz test tones. At 25/30/35 hz test tones, it was barely putting out a peep. During the sweep, it started to rumble, nicely at that and started shaking my (all concrete) condo enough to put a smile on my face, finally!

I then watched Transformers, and the Ironhide scene left my wife and I cold. I ran 2 demo dvd's, one specifically created for LFE channel testing, and nothing - literally . I had to put my ear to it to hear anything. I even tried a new cable, just in case. My room is 2700cu/ft, which should be no problem for this sub; which is corner loaded. I might have a lull in the room at that spot, but the Yammy put out more ooophm then this bad boy.

It is an impressive size, and indeed weight in at 56lbs.

I'll be calling Eric tomorrow. To be continued.

Yes, please keep us informed on what is found.
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post #560 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Goat View Post

I'd have you know that my PA-120 is an absolute beast! You're in the possession of a faulty subwoofer, my friend.


Edit - and why is it that nearly every gripe in this thread is coming from people with Onkyo 606, 706, and 806s? I have a Sony DG720 w/ HDMI LPCM 7.1 and this thing belts it out.


I think that the Onkyo connection is just the 606 is very popular w/ people that would be in the market for a sub of this price. People looking for the best bang for the buck.
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post #561 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 07:56 PM
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Does not give me confidence that I'm planning to pick up an Onkyo 606 to go with my PA-120...

Anyone suggest a similar priced alternative that upscales to 1080i and has HDMI switching?
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post #562 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 08:11 PM
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ok guys I got my sub in a few days ago, and at first i was dissapointed. I have a basic setup w/ a denon 588 receiver, cerwin vega center and sony towers and surrounds, and now this monster sub. I set my sub according to the manual like everyone else here. I put my receiver on sub: on, all speakers to small, xover to 80 hz and put the sub on 6. I set the level of the sub based upon a test tone to my liking I also had the xover on the sub all the way up (200 hz i think). This was not the awe inspiring set up for me. Yes it got loud a few times. I ran a 25hz to 250 hz sweep and had to turn it down. So that was nice, but something was not right for my ears. So i messed around with the settings and placement a bit.

Alas I found a sweet spot for me. I set the sub xover to 120 hz and the receiver still at 80. I did not really like the boomy sound from the higher freqs. Then I adjusted the sub volume from 6 to 7 this is where I got my biggest increase of sound. I have turned it up more jus to see what it will do, but anything past 8 is over kill in my opinion. Now this thing is starting to rumble and shake.

Today was the first chance that I had to really "test it out" (i live in a apt and had to make sure neighbors were not home) I ran a sweep again from 20 hz to 250 hz again w/ the volume turned up quite a bit. At the lower freqs this sub just could not take it (this was a stress test) I had to turn it down from about 20-30 hz I would say. But after that it really was a beast. I thought that pics were gonna fall off of my walls. and had to constantly check to see if neighbors were home.

Then I threw in LOTR return of the king. OMG it really did much better than I thought it was going to. I am still messing with the settings to get it right. I have it placed as best as I can. Now perhaps it is just a break in period that it needs. I have noticed that the surround on teh speaker is very tight. So i figure that in a few weeks this thing will really be pumping out the bass.

With all of that being said I just want to make a note that I am new to HT subs. I have NEVER had one. But I have been around bass for a long time w/ car stereos, so I know what it should sound like.

So just to let all u guys who are frustrated know... do what sounds good to YOU. You dont' have to follow someone elses recommendations if it does not work for you. Spend some time... get it right for you. I may be "losing" a bit of the lfe roll off, but I can't tell a bit. I get nice CLEAN bass from sub and teh mains take care of the rest.
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post #563 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 08:15 PM
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Well my family and I just watched War of The Worlds and this sub really put out the bass. When I first started up the sub with WOTW a few days ago it was chuffing and having struggles with the really low stuff. I have since moved it around and found a winner of a spot to locate. I also ran 5 or 6 hours of bass pounding music over the last few days. My wife and kids were impressed with all the lfe sound coming out of the sub. I'm beginning to believe what they say about sub placement.

I'm kinda with the rest of the people saying you got a bad sub cause I def. FEEL and hear my PA-120.
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post #564 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duneaholic View Post

Well my family and I just watched War of The Worlds and this sub really put out the bass. When I first started up the sub with WOTW a few days ago it was chuffing and having struggles with the really low stuff. I have since moved it around and found a winner of a spot to locate. I also ran 5 or 6 hours of bass pounding music over the last few days. My wife and kids were impressed with all the lfe sound coming out of the sub. I'm beginning to believe what they say about sub placement.

I am curious, did you leave your receiver set to the previous setting of +4db or have you again turned it up a bit. If I remember correctly you had it set higher when u heard the chuffing, then had to lower it to correct this problem.
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post #565 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 10:25 PM
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I had it set to +7db...I'm probably going to settle at +5 or 6. Hopefully that will be the best setting for both music and movies.
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post #566 of 2113 Old 02-05-2009, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

sounds like it's possibly defective. what happens when you run manual test tones built into the Denon? the subwoofer channel should be rumbling good if functioning right. Even if it's a little underpowered for the room, you should still hear it!!

as an FYI, that "+15dB" setting for the sub only affects the analog multichannel inputs, it doesn't do anything for any other input or surround mode. It's used to correct for an SACD player or other external multichannel source that doesn't do the proper boost on the LFE track when outputting multichannel analog.

Sounds like the sub could be defective. I have played that scene in Transformers and the bass from the PA-120 rumbled pretty well. I also have an Onkyo TX-SR606 and have no problems.
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post #567 of 2113 Old 02-06-2009, 12:17 AM
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If you have a receiver that can handle Dolby TrueHD - the opening chopper scene in transformers should easily shake your walls.
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post #568 of 2113 Old 02-06-2009, 01:29 AM
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Turned it up to 7 today, and ran audysey again. It rocked hard. This is a great sub. The only bad thing I can say about it is that it sounded like crap since it was rattling every thing on the walls. All I heard was rattle the whole time I was watching starwars. lol.

I also tried it at 8, and it seemed to be struggling at that level.

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post #569 of 2113 Old 02-06-2009, 02:09 AM
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Turned it up to 7 today, and ran audysey again. It rocked hard. This is a great sub. The only bad thing I can say about it is that it sounded like crap since it was rattling every thing on the walls. All I heard was rattle the whole time I was watching starwars. lol.

I also tried it at 8, and it seemed to be struggling at that level.


Is that a 7 on the sub or a +7db in your receiver? What receiver are you running? If it's the sub then what did audyssey set the db on the receiver at?
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post #570 of 2113 Old 02-06-2009, 02:46 AM
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Is that a 7 on the sub or a +7db in your receiver? What receiver are you running? If it's the sub then what did audyssey set the db on the receiver at?

7 on the sub, and the receiver set it to -6db. I'm using an onkyo 806.

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