SVS PB13-Ultra or keep Epik Tower? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Well,
Haven't really solved the "amp shutting down" during intense movie scenes like "Flight of the Phoenix Sand Storm" on my Epik Tower. Evidentally, the amp just can't handle the poor room node that is in my primary listening position, and I like a lot of bass in my 3000 cubic foot room. (I never know when the sub will shut down). Chad, the owner of Epik, came to the conclusion that my room is in a bad need for room treatment. I would stick with this sub if it just didn't go into thermal protect mode and shut down I'm now thinking I might return or sell the sub (it's in perfect condition about a month old) and buy an SVS PB-13 Ultra. BUT, and a BIG BUT, if it shuts down too, then that's it; I'm moving

So it comes to a dilema here. What do you guys think?

Terrence
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post #2 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 07:51 PM
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Get a Conquest if that shuts down then you'll have to move
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post #3 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 08:00 PM
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You will not find the 13Ultra shutting down.
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post #4 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 08:16 PM
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Wow! You're shutting down a tower? Have you properly calibrated your sub with an SPL meter? It may be that you need two (no kidding).
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post #5 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 08:20 PM
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Yeah I don't see why the Tower is shutting down? If it's calibrated properly you think the mains you get so loud you couldn't listen to it before the sub shut down? Hear some porting distortion or at least go very very loud.? I Had one Pb10 in a 2700^3 play it till I can hear it bottom out and get chuffing before I turned it down. It never shut off or the amp never got hot. But I didn't play it long just a moment.I just don't get it either. I doubt the Ultra will shut down either. If you have the fund try it.
Your room an listening levels you may need to Tower but if that happen to me it would be hard to buy another Tower IMO. Doesn't seem right it shuts off because of the room?? Dunno maybe others who have had this problem may post?
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post #6 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah, it's puzzling me to death! I don't know why it's shutting down; I'm at -2 on the amp (both sub and main volume on amp)....and about 9:30 on the sub itself. It seems like everything is great EXCEPT for the fact that it IS shutting down on occasion. I HATE TO WORRY ABOUT THIS.......

Terrence
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post #7 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 09:37 PM
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instead of moving where you live, is there no option of moving the sub location or seating location?

have you measured your room response?

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post #8 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

Well,
Evidentally, the amp just can't handle the poor room node that is in my primary listening position, and I like a lot of bass in my 3000 cubic foot room.

You are trying to boost a null? Every sub you try will have a problem with that.

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post #9 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ribbit View Post

instead of moving where you live, is there no option of moving the sub location or seating location?

have you measured your room response?

I can move the sub, but it will ALWAYS have a node where my theater chairs are (first row). I basically have a screwed room....I COULD live with my great sub IF i knew it wouldn't shut down at somewhat high levels.

Is the SVS a worthy try? I know it's gonna be a top notch sub, but will it compensate for the lack-of-bass in my front row AND not shut down????

Terrence
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post #10 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

I can move the sub, but it will ALWAYS have a node where my theater chairs are (first row). I basically have a screwed room....I COULD live with my great sub IF i knew it wouldn't shut down at somewhat high levels.

Is the SVS a worthy try? I know it's gonna be a top notch sub, but will it compensate for the lack-of-bass in my front row AND not shut down????

the seating position is that bad huh? usually, nulls go away and come back depending on the subwoofer location and/or the seating location. you have some luck there

anyway, before you make decisions with regards of the sub you need to graph your current sub in different room locations. we/you have to see what's really going on. if there really is a null and at what frequency.

btw, how'd you know there's a NODE in the first row? measurements or by ear?

consider the following options:
www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq
or
Velodyne SMS-1

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post #11 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
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"btw, how'd you know there's a NODE in the first row? measurements or by ear?"

I measured about a 5-8 db difference from my first row and the back corner of the room.
From where I sit, I can FEEL the bass but can hardly HEAR the bass...Don't get me wrong, it's a great experience for what the room can provide, I just don't want things shutting off.
THIS SUB SHOULD NOT SHUT OFF AT MY LEVELS................................

Terrence
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post #12 of 43 Old 12-03-2008, 11:38 PM
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Have you considered placing the sub near field?
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post #13 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 04:23 AM
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I'll bet the first row is in the center point of the room and he is pushing the volume attempting to overcome the null that occurs at the midpoint. No subwoofer can overcome this.

Where is the first row front to back?

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post #14 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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The first row is about 14.5 feet from the front wall, and about 7.5 feet from the back wall. The sub sounds noticeably more apparent from the second (back) row and I cannot move the chairs anymore back. I've already had the sub nearfield, and it still shut down. This is the second amp, and the odds of having two (already tested at the factory) amps fail is remote.

Terrence
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post #15 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 07:36 AM
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No easy answer here. SVS subs are great, but unless the SVS allows you to place it in a different location, you will be facing the same node problems you already have.

I can't remember, are room treatments (bass traps) not an option? Assuming the amp and driver are okay, then it is the reflections that are causing the problems.
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post #16 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 08:57 AM
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are you calibration sub from a dead spot? do you have a receiver with audessy?
have you tried to calibrate sub from 2nd row, if so does it still shut down?
i would think if you are calibrating in a room node, then you are probably actually running sub hot.
not many reports of unhappy tower owners, none that i can remember.
you will still have your room mode with any sub. either fix room, get mutiples, or throw more power at it.
btw, any photos of said room?
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post #17 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 09:09 AM
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If you're shutting down one of the most competent subwoofers on the planet you won't solve the issue by going to another one that's equally competent. The Tower offers greater output than the PB13 Ultra and is measured as such.

You've got a few options.
* Move the subwoofer and take measurements from multiple locations, THEN calibrate appropriate levels once you find that sweet spot
* Add room treatments
* Add a second subwoofer to smooth the response of the room
* Eliminate the second row of seating and move the first row back

Not sure what else you can really do. Doing all of the above would be ideal if you're having so many issues.
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post #18 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks you guys,
I will post a few pics of the room soon and will eventually get some bass traps (I can only put them in two corners). I may have another spot I can put the sub, but the previous sub did not do too well there, but it is nearfield. I will calibrate for the second row. I will run some more tests, for I want to keep the Tower and the thought of even shipping that thing is a nightmare

Terrence
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post #19 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 11:50 AM
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The thing about the shut down problem is that it sounds exactly like the shut down problem exhibited by some of the very first batch of PB13 Ultras late in the summer of '07. It was found to be distinctly a defect and all of the problem amps were quickly replaced. It would seem that there should some kind of limiting that occurs well before it has to shut down entirely.
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post #20 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 11:51 AM
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Are you EQing the Tower? If so what are you boosting and by how much? You either have a defective unit or are just simply pushing it way to hard whether due to bad room issues or something else.
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post #21 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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No, I'm not EQing the Tower. Remember also this is the second amp that was put to the test at the factory. I wish I could dissable the thermal shut down curcuit; when it shuts down, the amp is barely warm.....It IS QUITE POSSIBLE that I am pushing the sub to it's limits, and might need another tower down the road. Will post pics soon. Chad at Epik also said it could be a power issue coming from the outlet...maybe get a 20 amp breaker???...have you guys ever heard of that?

Terrence
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post #22 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

Well,
Evidentally, the amp just can't handle the poor room node that is in my primary listening position, and I like a lot of bass in my 3000 cubic foot room.

So it comes to a dilema here. What do you guys think?


Add a second sub to tame the null.

SM
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post #23 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW, can you guys recommend a room auto-EQ device on ebay that is fairly cheap, but good?

Terrence
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post #24 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

BTW, can you guys recommend a room auto-EQ device on ebay that is fairly cheap, but good?

I'm not sure anything is auto, cheap, and good. I'd recommend the Room EQ Wizard (REW) paired with one of the Behringer Feedback Destroyers and a Radio Shack SPL meter to tame your frequency response. Takes a little bit of work but for ~$150 you can do it quite well.
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post #25 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 12:50 PM
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The BASH amp on the Ultra I beleive is the Indigo 1K platform, similar to the amp in the Conquest. I've heard it really doesn't do 1K (about 900w) and because of that SVS spec'd it at 750w to be conservative. So from that perspective the Ultra will have a couple more dbs headroom. However, this is offset by the Tower's 15" driver and larger box, so the Epik should have greater max output capability. Which gets me back to my point made on the Epik thread...are you still running the sub hot? If so, then it's likely that you're just running out of gas at close to reference. The only way to stop this is to calibrate closer to a level match with your mains or add another sub. Running the sub even 5dbs hot at reference is likely straining the amps capability.

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post #26 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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just did another test with the main amp/processor volume at -3 on the sand storm and the sub did not shut down.....this gives hope! I did not change anything else.....

Terrence
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post #27 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

just did another test with the main amp/processor volume at -3 on the sand storm and the sub did not shut down.....this gives hope! I did not change anything else.....

Try this. Set the sub at the exact same level as the mains (75db with test tones on both the sub and the mains calibrated with your SPL meter) and then put it through a torture test See if you can get it to shut down. If not I'd leave it alone there. That will be 2.5-3db hot as compared to mains and is probably the limit in your room.

-Chad
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post #28 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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As you can see, the room does open up on the front/right of the room to the kitchen/dining area, so we're talking more than 3000 cubic feet. If you look closely, you can see the Tower next to my left main speaker. I can put a bass trap (small one) in the front/left corner (which is not shown in the pics). Also in the back of the room, I can move the DVD shelving over to the rear door to accomidate a bass trap in that corner. The other back corner is a wood stove, so a no-go on that corner. Let me know what you guys think....many thanks!
LL
LL

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post #29 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

The Tower offers greater output than the PB13 Ultra and is measured as such.

Do you have a link to those measurements?

Bosso
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post #30 of 43 Old 12-04-2008, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Do you have a link to those measurements?

Bosso

From Craigsub's thread. I know it is the Castle, but the Tower is just a Castle in a bigger enclosure

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108.5 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115.5 dB

This is the PB13's measurements

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 113.5 dB

The Castle/Tower has 2dB more output from 20-63Hz than the PB13.
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