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post #271 of 834 Old 07-17-2009, 05:57 PM
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Sorry for the misinformation there...glad you're here to clear things up Ed. So to clarify, "boundary gain" occurs regardless of the frequency, right? Is it correct to say that room gain only occurs with bass frequencies (at least in practice - it could theoretically happen with higher frequencies in a tiny enclosed space but this would never be encountered in real use) due to the larger wavelengths of deeper bass and their interactions with room dimensions?

You brought up another good point which I failed to mention in that many (I'd venture to say most) commercial sealed subwoofers DO have a high pass filter or modified EQ built into their amps to shape their frequency response differently than the natural 12dB/octave roll-off of a typical sealed subwoofer. A perfect example of this is the JL Fathom line which is EQ'd to stay pretty flat to 20hz with a pretty sharp drop below that. Of course enclosure volume and driver specs can have a large effect on the slope of a sealed sub's roll-off as well but the 12dB/octave roll-off is a good general guideline when referring to sealed subs.

BTW, can't wait to see the final new sealed subs SVS is coming out with. I'm betting they'll be pretty awesome .
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post #272 of 834 Old 07-17-2009, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

So to clarify, "boundary gain" occurs regardless of the frequency, right? Is it correct to say that room gain only occurs with bass frequencies (at least in practice - it could theoretically happen with higher frequencies in a tiny enclosed space but this would never be encountered in real use) due to the larger wavelengths of deeper bass and their interactions with room dimensions?

Yes, correct on both counts. The smaller the room, the sooner the onset of room gain, but even in a very small room like an office, you're still looking at ~40 Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

You brought up another good point which I failed to mention in that many (I'd venture to say most) commercial sealed subwoofers DO have a high pass filter or modified EQ built into their amps to shape their frequency response differently than the natural 12dB/octave roll-off of a typical sealed subwoofer. A perfect example of this is the JL Fathom line which is EQ'd to stay pretty flat to 20hz with a pretty sharp drop below that. Of course enclosure volume and driver specs can have a large effect on the slope of a sealed sub's roll-off as well but the 12dB/octave roll-off is a good general guideline when referring to sealed subs.

Right - many/most commercial sealed subwoofers use a HPF2, but there are some notable exceptions.

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SVS

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post #273 of 834 Old 07-17-2009, 08:21 PM
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sorry to cut in and change the subject here guys, but since I'll be upgrading to the PC12-NSD soon, I just wanted to aks a quik question to all you NSD owners. How well does it perform musically? Can it hit hard on that "punchy" kick drum style bass? as well as go low for those hip hop tracks. Thanks.
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post #274 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Devin1886 View Post

sorry to cut in and change the subject here guys, but since I'll be upgrading to the PC12-NSD soon, I just wanted to aks a quik question to all you NSD owners. How well does it perform musically? Can it hit hard on that "punchy" kick drum style bass? as well as go low for those hip hop tracks. Thanks.

Oh yes! Don't know about hip hop but after I setup my NSD with a proper crossover and EQ'd with a housecurve, the drums of rock and metal I feel in my chest. The other day I listened to U2 - With or without you and I could FEEL the bass guitar in my couch! In my place the response only rolls off below 15Hz so it goes low too.

So in my opinion and with no reference to any of the larger and more powerful subs: YES! The PC12-NSD is AWESOME for music
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post #275 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 08:04 AM
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Thanks Robert, does the sub come with a manual that describes how to calibrate it without having to use an SPL meter or EQ?
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post #276 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 10:57 AM
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No Devin, they really really recommend you use an SPL meter. I got mine from SVS. I initially just turned up the gain half way on the sub to demo to a friend one day and I got the sub to make some funny noises on movie scenes with seriously deep bass (ie transformers where the bot does the flip over the lady in the street). I was rather disappointed by that but after speaking to the guys at SVS they told me I'm probably running the sub too hot. So I recalibrated it at the same SPL as the speakers and everything worked fine.

There is no real need to do a complete EQ of the sub, I guess it'll sound great to most people but I was curious to see what could be done with Room EQ Wizard and a BFD. So I calibrated the sub as flat as I could for my room and then applied a 6dB house curve. (IE the sub is 6dB's louder from 30Hz down and drops to the main speaker levels at 90Hz). Anyway now the setup sounds even more amazing. That same scene in transformers feels like it's tearing my whole apartment apart and the sub sounds like it's doing it without breaking a sweat
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post #277 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_E View Post

No Devin, they really really recommend you use an SPL meter. I got mine from SVS. I initially just turned up the gain half way on the sub to demo to a friend one day and I got the sub to make some funny noises on movie scenes with seriously deep bass (ie transformers where the bot does the flip over the lady in the street). I was rather disappointed by that but after speaking to the guys at SVS they told me I'm probably running the sub too hot. So I recalibrated it at the same SPL as the speakers and everything worked fine.

There is no real need to do a complete EQ of the sub, I guess it'll sound great to most people but I was curious to see what could be done with Room EQ Wizard and a BFD. So I calibrated the sub as flat as I could for my room and then applied a 6dB house curve. (IE the sub is 6dB's louder from 30Hz down and drops to the main speaker levels at 90Hz). Anyway now the setup sounds even more amazing. That same scene in transformers feels like it's tearing my whole apartment apart and the sub sounds like it's doing it without breaking a sweat

I don't want to de-rail the thread or over burden you (or anyone), but is there a standard way to dial in a sub with a SPL meter? I know it has been said to get a SPL meter and test tone CD; however, utilizing them properly to tune the subs is the tricky part. The only dials that I typically see on subs are frequency, phase and gain. With all those different frequency responses, how would you have 1 setting on a sub to work magic in the room. I guess that is why people get items like the SVS EQ1. I also have Audyssey 2EQ on my Onkyo 605; however, I wonder if that would be enough to dial in 2 subs properly
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post #278 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

I don't want to de-rail the thread or over burden you (or anyone), but is there a standard way to dial in a sub with a SPL meter? I know it has been said to get a SPL meter and test tone CD; however, utilizing them properly to tune the subs is the tricky part. The only dials that I typically see on subs are frequency, phase and gain. With all those different frequency responses, how would you have 1 setting on a sub to work magic in the room. I guess that is why people get items like the SVS EQ1. I also have Audyssey 2EQ on my Onkyo 605; however, I wonder if that would be enough to dial in 2 subs properly

The reason to use an SPL meter is to level match the sub to the satellites. You don't want to run the sub too hot or too cold. You can use the AVR to provide a level of EQ without buying outboard devices. Most the time, the AVR auto set up does an OK job, but they usually makes some bad setting choices. Such as always wanting to set the mains to large. You can override these settings later. Using the auto setup/Eq and an SPL meter is the best/cheapest method to dial in a sub, but to do it as right as possible, then you need more sophisticated hardware/software.

To save some money, get the SPL meter, but you can rent the Avia or DVE disks from NetFilx and maybe Block Buster or Hollywood Video. Some THX DVDs have some basic setup features on them as well. These also help you dial in your picture. It takes some getting used to not having the contrast set to 100, but in the end, the picture is overall better.

Randy
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post #279 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

Using the auto setup/Eq and an SPL meter is the best/cheapest method to dial in a sub, but to do it as right as possible, then you need more sophisticated hardware/software.

To save some money, get the SPL meter, but you can rent the Avia or DVE disks from NetFilx and maybe Block Buster or Hollywood Video. Some THX DVDs have some basic setup features on them as well. These also help you dial in your picture. It takes some getting used to not having the contrast set to 100, but in the end, the picture is overall better.

How would you use a SPL meter for tuning along with an auto setup/eq system like Audyssey??

I thought it was either Audyssey or manual settings....not both. I know the frequency and gain can be adjusted after Audyssey is ran. Are you saying re-test out the levels at the seating area and make sure all speakers yield the same SPL at various test frequencies?

I actually already borrowed the Avia BR disc, thanks.
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post #280 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

How would you use a SPL meter for tuning along with an auto setup/eq system like Audyssey??

I thought it was either Audyssey or manual settings....not both. I know the frequency and gain can be adjusted after Audyssey is ran. Are you saying re-test out the levels at the seating area and make sure all speakers yield the same SPL at various test frequencies?

I actually already borrowed the Avia BR disc, thanks.

I have an older Denon receiver that does not have Audyssey but a propriety auto setup. Either way, they will only comp for one sub. If you have two, it will treat it as one. I level match first with all channels set to zero, then I run the setup.. It does OK for the EQ and distance settings (time domain), but it sets the mains to large. I manually set them to small. There is a limit on the channel gain offsets. Mine does +-12DB per channel. If my sub's gain is too high, it will set the sub to -12 and the satellites to +12.

There are several threads about setting up two subs. It is a one-at-a-time process. Search for this and you will find several responses. Or just ask it again. If you buy two SVS subs, Ed will help you dial them in. If you buy 2 HSUs, Dr. Hsu may help you. If you buy two Submersives, Mark will help you. Epik, eD, and Rythmik will also provide assistance with dialing in their sub. I would bet each one would ask if you have an SPL meter.

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post #281 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

How would you use a SPL meter for tuning along with an auto setup/eq system like Audyssey??

I thought it was either Audyssey or manual settings....not both. I know the frequency and gain can be adjusted after Audyssey is ran. Are you saying re-test out the levels at the seating area and make sure all speakers yield the same SPL at various test frequencies?

I actually already borrowed the Avia BR disc, thanks.

So is an SPL meter needed or can you just use the 2EQ. Is the SPL meter going to help you set the db speaker and sub levels the same as the Audyssey 2EQ? I realize that the Audyssey 2EQ does not apply any filters to the sub but will it set db levels, or do you have to use the SPL meter to set them correctly? Thanks, I'm having a tough time figureing this out. I'm only talking about using one sub.
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post #282 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 04:17 PM
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I don't have Audyssey to play with, but what I do have does not do a good job of setting the levels. I do this manually with an SPL meter.

Perhaps others with one of the built in Audyssey products can answer this.

Randy
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post #283 of 834 Old 07-18-2009, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BWG707 View Post

So is an SPL meter needed or can you just use the 2EQ. Is the SPL meter going to help you set the db speaker and sub levels the same as the Audyssey 2EQ? I realize that the Audyssey 2EQ does not apply any filters to the sub but will it set db levels, or do you have to use the SPL meter to set them correctly? Thanks, I'm having a tough time figureing this out. I'm only talking about using one sub.

You are totally correct in that 2EQ does not apply any fliters to the sub; however, it DOES set the sub db levels. After you run Audyssey 2EQ it changes the gains for all speakers AND sub.

By the way, the calculated distances are not supposed to be 100% accurate to what u may measure because it takes room dynamics into play. (This is also why speakers spaced equally apart and equally to the listener may have different gain levels set by Audyssey...to compensate for room dynamics.) Example, your sub may only be a few feet from the listening area but Audyssey may set it as 12 feet to compensate for delays or room gain. Just be sure to set your sub crossover to off and make sure the gain dialed in for your sub by Audyssey is not all the way at -15 other wise you will have to dial down the gain on the sub.
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post #284 of 834 Old 07-25-2009, 07:29 AM
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For those that own a powered SVS cylinder sub, does it sound the same when it is lying down compared to standing verticle (as it was designed). I would assume the weight from the verticle postion would allow the sub to be a little more accurate and maybe sound better compared to laying it down.

I know SVS also claims that they sound the same, but obviously they are different designs and different enclosure material. Has anyone had an opportunity to hear both (ex: pb12 vs pc12) types and compare?
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post #285 of 834 Old 08-01-2009, 05:38 PM
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What, no posts in 7 days? Well, just to bump this thread up a bit I should be receiving an NSD later this week. I hope I will enjoy it!
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post #286 of 834 Old 08-02-2009, 06:07 AM
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Yeah, we can start with someone hopefully helping to answer the question I asked in the previous post...a week earlier
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post #287 of 834 Old 08-02-2009, 01:40 PM
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I see no reason to lie mine on it's side . in fear of damaging it
I'm a Happy Camper with mine ! ;}

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JAZZ IS NOT DEAD IT JUST SMELLS FUNNY ; FRANK ZAPPA
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post #288 of 834 Old 08-03-2009, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepstang View Post

Yeah, we can start with someone hopefully helping to answer the question I asked in the previous post...a week earlier

I can honestly not see what difference there would be in the sound you perceive by lying it on it's side or leaving it standing upright, the way this thing pressurizes the room it'll do it whichever way the driver is pointing. That's also why they say the cylinder and front firing subs in the same class are indistinguishable.
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post #289 of 834 Old 08-03-2009, 07:57 AM
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The most important part of how a sub will interact with the room is the location of the driver. With the cylinder subs, the driver is on the bottom. If you lay it on its side, the driver is pretty much in the same location, so same performance. If by laying it on its side, you dramatically move the location of the driver, all bets are off.
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post #290 of 834 Old 08-03-2009, 09:31 AM
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I am surprised that no one has their SVS cylinder in that position where they can comment on it. I talked to SVS in the past and they said that it was possible.
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post #291 of 834 Old 08-04-2009, 02:01 AM
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deepstang -- I suspect that no one has responded because we fail to see the logic behind your request. It makes no sense to lay a cylindrical sub on it's side. It's an inefficient use of floor space and doesn't give you the optimum room coupling.

You get a SVS cylindrical sub because you (a) need a smaller footprint and/or (b) your room location needs a down-firing sub. In all other cases (the need for a horizontal-firing sub), the box versions (PBs) give you better room coupling and a smaller footprint.

That is precisely the reason that SVS makes the two different versions of their subs - so owners have the choice to correctly fit the room.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #292 of 834 Old 08-04-2009, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

deepstang -- I suspect that no one has responded because we fail to see the logic behind your request. It makes no sense to lay a cylindrical sub on it's side. It's an inefficient use of floor space and doesn't give you the optimum room coupling.

You get a SVS cylindrical sub because you (a) need a smaller footprint and/or (b) your room location needs a down-firing sub. In all other cases (the need for a horizontal-firing sub), the box versions (PBs) give you better room coupling and a smaller footprint.

That is precisely the reason that SVS makes the two different versions of their subs - so owners have the choice to correctly fit the room.


Claus, thank you for taking the time to respond. I understand your confusion with my request, so I will show you the pic of the space I am trying to occupy. This room is my main room, so if stood vertically it would be a potential eye-sore....if laid on its side, it would nicely occupy that long strip of space.



I was amazed how when I pushed that 15" wide velodyne to the end of the sectional and moved the sectional closer to that wall (as that best fits the room), I litereally lost 30% of room gain and the sub sounded so weak (as compared to corner placement). Example:


I than realized that i would be loosing 30% of a sub from moving it out of that back right corner. I called another AVS member over a few weeks ago to hear the difference and he was blown away.

My other option would be to try and squeeze 2 smaller square subs in both back corners of the room (maybe PB10s...or one PB10 and one PB12:



I am amazed at the sheer volume of the PC series....ACTUALLY, WAIT, I just had an epiphany after calculting the volumes of the various SVS power subs:

Here is a comparison of the cubic volume of the various subs:

PB-NSD 10: 5985
PB-NSD 12: 9450

PC 12: 7038
PC 12+: 8043.52
PC ultra: 9250

Wow, I thought that the PC series had more volume but I guess i was wrong. Hmmm, I guess it may be worth to find someway to sqeeze in a PB12-NSD in that corner. Thanks again.
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post #293 of 834 Old 08-04-2009, 09:38 AM
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Two PB10's would give you more output than the one PC12, so if that works for you budget/space, it might be a good option. I agree with Clause, that if given a choice, I would go with the sub the way it was designed to work. But, if the cylinder on its side is the only real option for you to get the sub you want into a more narrow space, there is nothing wrong with operating one that way.
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post #294 of 834 Old 08-04-2009, 11:54 AM
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Hi,

My room size is about

40ft (wide) x 35ft (long) x 18ft (high), it’s a great room.

I ordered the PC12-NSD today, will this do a good job for this size room?

Or do you think the SB12-Plus will do a better job?

Of course I think of this after ordering.

I am coming from a TSS-1100 subwoofer.

Thanks guys.
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post #295 of 834 Old 08-04-2009, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtbdevs View Post

Hi,

My room size is about

40ft (wide) x 35ft (long) x 18ft (high), it’s a great room.

I ordered the PC12-NSD today, will this do a good job for this size room?

Or do you think the SB12-Plus will do a better job?

Of course I think of this after ordering.

I am coming from a TSS-1100 subwoofer.

Thanks guys.

You most definitely picked the better of the two. The PB12-NSD has a good deal more output capability than the SB12-Plus, especially down low. To be honest, most members here would be looking at putting at minimum 2-4 Ultras in that huge room (I'd put more than that). However, given the fact that you're coming from the subwoofer in the Infinity TSS-1100 system, the PB12-NSD should be a very nice upgrade.
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post #296 of 834 Old 08-04-2009, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

You most definitely picked the better of the two. The PB12-NSD has a good deal more output capability than the SB12-Plus, especially down low. To be honest, most members here would be looking at putting at minimum 2-4 Ultras in that huge room (I'd put more than that). However, given the fact that you're coming from the subwoofer in the Infinity TSS-1100 system, the PB12-NSD should be a very nice upgrade.


Thanks, that's very good to know. The WAF was set to 1, give it a while, then I can bring up the subject again, maybe around Christmas.
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post #297 of 834 Old 08-04-2009, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtbdevs View Post

Hi,

My room size is about 40ft (wide) x 35ft (long) x 18ft (high), it's a great room.

I ordered the PC12-NSD today, will this do a good job for this size room?

Or do you think the SB12-Plus will do a better job?

Of course I think of this after ordering.

I am coming from a TSS-1100 subwoofer.

Thanks guys.

That's not a Great Room, that's the Great Outdoors.

You need to seriously consider more subs or very near field location.

Randy
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post #298 of 834 Old 08-05-2009, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

That's not a Great Room, that's the Great Outdoors.

You need to seriously consider more subs or very near field location.

I was speaking with SVS yesterday, they were most helpful. We got it to where the sub will be about 9ft, from the main viewing area.

If I didn't live in NJ, you would be most correct about the "Great Outdoors"

Thanks.
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post #299 of 834 Old 08-06-2009, 07:23 PM
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Add another PC12 owner, just received mine from Sonicboom here in Canada. I will be playing around with settings for a few days I'm sure. Here are a few pictures of the set up.










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post #300 of 834 Old 08-07-2009, 09:57 AM
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Nice setup! What are those speakers ?
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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