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post #1 of 48 Old 01-10-2009, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm currently in the market for a complete home theater system and so far I'm planning on going with all Definitive Technology speakers. I was originally going to go with a SuperCube III as a sub, but I was told to check out HSU to see if I liked what they had. Turns out I love what they have and have read great things about their subs. In all honesty, I am a complete bass head lol so the deeper and more primal the bass the better. the SuperCube was appealing to me because of the form factor but after seeing HSU's products, form factor be damned!

I am currently debating over three HSU subs and I'm sure the middle sub will probably fit my needs the best. I'm looking at the VTF-3 MK 3 Subwoofer, the VTF-2 MK 3 and the STF-2. I would love the VTF-3 MK 3, but I think it may be a little overkill for my setup and don't think it will fit into the overall budget. For reference, here is the system I think I'm going to "build."

A/V Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH
Center Speaker: Definitive Technology CLR 2002
FL/FR Speakers: Definitive Technology BP7006
SL/SR Speakers: Definitive Technology BP1.2X
SBL/SBR: Speakers: Definitive Technology BP1.2X

The temporary room size will be 15 x 12, however, it will be moved into a room roughly 22 x 16 in a couple of months. Thanks for all the help!
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post #2 of 48 Old 01-10-2009, 08:21 PM
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You're a bass head huh? Welcome and stick around.

For the size room you're going to be moving everything to I would suggest at minimum the VTF-3 - frankly I don't think it will be enough. Two would be better.*

If you aren't stuck with HSU due to a gift certificate or something there are also other subwoofer options worth considering. Along with HSU, SVS, EpiK, eD, AV123 are typically the subwoofers considered with the most bang for the buck.

*Disclaimer - My subwoofers cost more than all my other audio components combined.
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post #3 of 48 Old 01-10-2009, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRedrum View Post

I'm currently in the market for a complete home theater system and so far I'm planning on going with all Definitive Technology speakers. I was originally going to go with a SuperCube III as a sub, but I was told to check out HSU to see if I liked what they had. Turns out I love what they have and have read great things about their subs. In all honesty, I am a complete bass head lol so the deeper and more primal the bass the better. the SuperCube was appealing to me because of the form factor but after seeing HSU's products, form factor be damned!

I am currently debating over three HSU subs and I'm sure the middle sub will probably fit my needs the best. I'm looking at the VTF-3 MK 3 Subwoofer, the VTF-2 MK 3 and the STF-2. I would love the VTF-3 MK 3, but I think it may be a little overkill for my setup and don't think it will fit into the overall budget. For reference, here is the system I think I'm going to "build."

A/V Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH
Center Speaker: Definitive Technology CLR 2002
FL/FR Speakers: Definitive Technology BP7006
SL/SR Speakers: Definitive Technology BP1.2X
SBL/SBR: Speakers: Definitive Technology BP1.2X

The temporary room size will be 15 x 12, however, it will be moved into a room roughly 22 x 16 in a couple of months. Thanks for all the help!

1) You have to think about the subwoofer in the context of the cost of the overall system. An extra 100-$150 for a really satisfying subwoofer is money well spent.


2) Since you are moving into a room 22 x 16, your going to need a good amount of output.

For whatever reasons you like HSU, the 3.3 is most likely to satisfy you among the subs you mentioned. If you want to save a little money and still get a very good performer, check out the SVS PC-12 NSD:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_nsd.cfm

It's only $549 plus shipping.

It has a 4th generation driver and a reworked cylinder. Excellent product for the money.

PS Be careful about models that have had more than their share of technical problems...
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post #4 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRedrum View Post

...I'm looking at the VTF-3 MK 3 Subwoofer, the VTF-2 MK 3 and the STF-2. I would love the VTF-3 MK 3, but I think it may be a little overkill for my setup and don't think it will fit into the overall budget...room roughly 22 x 16...FL/FR Speakers: Definitive Technology BP7006

I formerly had the STF-2, now have VTF-3 (orig, not Mk2) in a 22 x 20 x 9 room. Both sounded very well. The "little" STF-2 was impressive for the size and cost.

However on some material (not often) the VTF-3 is maxed out. It takes pipe organ-type-stuff, played pretty loud. But my room is about 4,000 cubic feet, somewhat more volume than yours. I'm upgrading to an SVS PC13-Ultra.

Your BP7006 speakers EACH have a 300W powered subwoofer with two 8" drivers. They have good bass all by themselves. Whatever sub you get would be supplementing this. The STF-2, VTF3.3, and PC-12NSD are all good options. You'd likely be happy with any of them. However the more powerful the better.

Unless the BP7006's have a separate input for the receiver's SUBW OUT, don't set the A/V receiver L/R speaker size to "small". That would cut off bass freqs from the main speaker's integrated sub. After your system is installed, re-post here for more detailed config advice.
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post #5 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRedrum View Post


A/V Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH
Center Speaker: Definitive Technology CLR 2002
FL/FR Speakers: Definitive Technology BP7006
SL/SR Speakers: Definitive Technology BP1.2X
SBL/SBR: Speakers: Definitive Technology BP1.2X

I have a setup similar to yours, except 2300 for the center and pm800's for surrounds. The sub I went with is a VTF2.3 and later added an MBM-12. After much tweaking and calibrating the whole thing blends and sounds great.
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post #6 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRedrum View Post

I'm currently in the market for a complete home theater system and so far I'm planning on going with all Definitive Technology speakers. I was originally going to go with a SuperCube III as a sub, but I was told to check out HSU to see if I liked what they had. Turns out I love what they have and have read great things about their subs. In all honesty, I am a complete bass head lol so the deeper and more primal the bass the better. the SuperCube was appealing to me because of the form factor but after seeing HSU's products, form factor be damned!

I am currently debating over three HSU subs and I'm sure the middle sub will probably fit my needs the best. I'm looking at the VTF-3 MK 3 Subwoofer, the VTF-2 MK 3 and the STF-2. I would love the VTF-3 MK 3, but I think it may be a little overkill for my setup and don't think it will fit into the overall budget. For reference, here is the system I think I'm going to "build."

A/V Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH
Center Speaker: Definitive Technology CLR 2002
FL/FR Speakers: Definitive Technology BP7006
SL/SR Speakers: Definitive Technology BP1.2X
SBL/SBR: Speakers: Definitive Technology BP1.2X

The temporary room size will be 15 x 12, however, it will be moved into a room roughly 22 x 16 in a couple of months. Thanks for all the help!

since you're getting yourself a nice HSU sub, why not get the non powered bp-10b's which are cheaper and better than the bp7006s ?

you could even go with the bp6b or bp8b and save even more money

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post #7 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRedrum View Post

I'm looking at the VTF-3 MK 3 Subwoofer, the VTF-2 MK 3 and the STF-2. I would love the VTF-3 MK 3, but I think it may be a little overkill for my setup and don't think it will fit into the overall budget.


You can never have too much bass. It's better to have the extra headroom capability as you can always turn it down. However, if your sub is too small, then you'll regret it as you can't go past its maximum capabilites.
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post #8 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by croseiv View Post

You can never have too much bass. It's better to have the extra headroom capability as you can always turn it down. However, if your sub is too small, then you'll regret it as you can't go past its maximum capabilites.

I certainly agree, and thank you everyone for your input and help. I want a solid sub that can give me some headroom so I can use it if I need it. As jdm1 mentioned, I will already have two 8" powered subs in the 7006's so coupled with the VTF-3 MK3 should be more than enough. Granted, I am a bass head and the more bass I can get the better

I've been told before as well to look at the VTF-3.3, but I simply can't find that sub on HSU's website... or maybe I'm just being blind or stupid. As for the SVS PC-12NSD, I may be opening up a can of worms with this question, but how does that compare to the more expensive VTF-3 or the 3.3? I've never actually heard a cylinder sub so any input on that would be appreciated. If it has similar output as the VTF-3 then I'll probably go with that given the price point and possibly pick up a second one later on. The only downside would be that it would require me to get a different receiver but I've always wanted a 7.2 setup lol and I haven't bought the VSX-01TXH receiver yet.
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post #9 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRedrum View Post

I certainly agree, and thank you everyone for your input and help. I want a solid sub that can give me some headroom so I can use it if I need it. As jdm1 mentioned, I will already have two 8" powered subs in the 7006's so coupled with the VTF-3 MK3 should be more than enough. Granted, I am a bass head and the more bass I can get the better

I've been told before as well to look at the VTF-3.3, but I simply can't find that sub on HSU's website... or maybe I'm just being blind or stupid. As for the SVS PC-12NSD, I may be opening up a can of worms with this question, but how does that compare to the more expensive VTF-3 or the 3.3? I've never actually heard a cylinder sub so any input on that would be appreciated. If it has similar output as the VTF-3 then I'll probably go with that given the price point and possibly pick up a second one later on. The only downside would be that it would require me to get a different receiver but I've always wanted a 7.2 setup lol and I haven't bought the VSX-01TXH receiver yet.

HSU 3.3 is actually the VTF-3 MK3

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post #10 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRedrum View Post

The only downside would be that it would require me to get a different receiver but I've always wanted a 7.2 setup lol and I haven't bought the VSX-01TXH receiver yet.

The typical HT set up with dual subs does not require a special receiver. The .1 or LFE channel is mono and can be split via a Y adapter to connect both subs. There are other alternatives using speaker level inputs and outputs on the sub, but these are usually used in a stereo (2.0) installation.

Given your L/R mains will have built in 8" subs, these can provide your mid/upper bass and give added enhancement to the sub. You can then cross over at a lower freq and let the sub handle the lower two octaves. Since your center and surrounds won't go as low as the mains, you should look for a receiver that allows you to set the cross over for each channel. The one you're looking at does not. This way, you can set a lower XO on the mains but redirect the bass from the center/surrounds at a higher XO to the sub.

Randy
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post #11 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

The typical HT set up with dual subs does not require a special receiver. The .1 or LFE channel is mono and can be split via a Y adapter to connect both subs. There are other alternatives using speaker level inputs and outputs on the sub, but these are usually used in a stereo (2.0) installation.

Given your L/R mains will have built in 8" subs, these can provide your mid/upper bass and give added enhancement to the sub. You can then cross over at a lower freq and let the sub handle the lower two octaves. Since your center and surrounds won't go as low as the mains, you should look for a receiver that allows you to set the cross over for each channel. The one you're looking at does not. This way, you can set a lower XO on the mains but redirect the bass from the center/surrounds at a higher XO to the sub.

Well that certainly does make sense lol, at least what I could understand that is. I was hoping to do something along the lines of what you're suggesting. Any receivers off hand that you can recommend? I'll take a look at some receivers at the local Magnolia when I get a chance. I was hoping to get everything for my system there so I can just throw everything in the truck and go home. That and it's easier to return something if something goes wrong to a B&M store.

And thank you Gov for clarifying what the HSU 3.3 actually was/is.
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post #12 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 02:49 PM
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My room is 18 X 28 X 14 and two HSU 3.3's fill it nicely.

Bill
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post #13 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 03:12 PM
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The BP7006 has the option to run the built in sub off the receiver's LFE channel. That would be fine if you weren't looking to add a true sub woofer. I would recommend, as was stated by otk, get the BP10B (or BP8B) mains and let a better sub handle all the mid and low bass. I believe this would make for a much simpler setup for the bass management capabilities of the AVR. Just set all speakers to small and the crossover to 60-80Hz. If you go with the BP7006 mains, then you have to find a way to integrate the built in subs with the true sub/s and accommodate other channels that can't dig as deep as the mains. To provide settings to allow the mains to be crossed over at a lower frequency than the center/surrounds, you will limit your receiver choices. Most receivers will allow you to set mains/center/surrounds as large or small and provide only one XO point. I know I have seen receivers that let you set the XO for mains, center, and surrounds at different points, but I can't think of which ones they are right now.

You can go with the BP7006 mains, set all channels to small, the XO to 80Hz and just let the subs in the mains handle the upper bass sent to the mains above the XO point. An alternative is to use the LFE inputs on the BP7006s so they are your subs, but I don't believe you will get the lower octaves as I don't believe DTs FR specs (17Hz) for an 8" sub.

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post #14 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

The BP7006 has the option to run the built in sub off the receiver's LFE channel. That would be fine if you weren't looking to add a true sub woofer. I would recommend, as was stated by otk, get the BP10B (or BP8B) mains and let a better sub handle all the mid and low bass. I believe this would make for a much simpler setup for the bass management capabilities of the AVR. Just set all speakers to small and the crossover to 60-80Hz. If you go with the BP7006 mains, then you have to find a way to integrate the built in subs with the true sub/s and accommodate other channels that can't dig as deep as the mains. To provide settings to allow the mains to be crossed over at a lower frequency than the center/surrounds, you will limit your receiver choices. Most receivers will allow you to set mains/center/surrounds as large or small and provide only one XO point. I know I have seen receivers that let you set the XO for mains, center, and surrounds at different points, but I can't think of which ones they are right now.

You can go with the BP7006 mains, set all channels to small, the XO to 80Hz and just let the subs in the mains handle the upper bass sent to the mains above the XO point. An alternative is to use the LFE inputs on the BP7006s so they are your subs, but I don't believe you will get the lower octaves as I don't believe DTs FR specs (17Hz) for an 8" sub.

I didn't even think how complicated this setup could possibly be so thanks for bringing that to mind. I'll consider the BP10B or BP8B instead of the BP7006's and just get one or two good dedicated sub(s). I'll save money by getting cheaper and slightly better mains, being able to keep the receiver I want and I'll be able to avoid a headache by going that route. I think this could be a very good setup now if I lose the BP7006's lol.

Any idea how two SVS PC12-NSD sound together? Oh, and you guys rock!
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post #15 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 05:18 PM
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MrRedrum, in your 22x16 room, how high are the ceilings? Does that room open to any other areas of the house, and if so, what are the dimensions (HxWxD) of those areas?

Thanks!

Pete - Hsu Research
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post #16 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRedrum View Post

I didn't even think how complicated this setup could possibly be so thanks for bringing that to mind. I'll consider the BP10B or BP8B instead of the BP7006's and just get one or two good dedicated sub(s). I'll save money by getting cheaper and slightly better mains, being able to keep the receiver I want and I'll be able to avoid a headache by going that route. I think this could be a very good setup now if I lose the BP7006's lol.

Any idea how two SVS PC12-NSD sound together? Oh, and you guys rock!

I'm trying to find a difference between the BP8 and the BP6, but damned if I can see it. Same FR, same compliment of drivers, same size enclosure. There must be something for the extra $100 each.

Don't know why I'm looking at your speakers other than to save you some $ on the speakers so you can spend more on your sub/s. Will this system be primarily or exclusively for HT?

How dead set are you on DefTech? Choosing speakers can be even more daunting than choosing a sub, but there are some nice package deals on speakers and sub at HSU HB/HC series and Ascend CMT series (which I keep getting drawn back to). SVS has some nice packages, but the better MTS/MTB speakers are probably over your budget. But the DTs are priced competitively.

I'm not trying to sell you on anything. Just trying to put you through the same hell I'm going through.

Randy
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post #17 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I'm trying to find a difference between the BP8 and the BP6, but damned if I can see it. Same FR, same compliment of drivers, same size enclosure. There must be something for the extra $100 each.

they recently switched to a whole new website design and i've found some errors since the switch over

the bp8b's mid/bass drivers have cast baskets and the bp6b's do not. also the bp6b is shorter than the bp8b (another website error that has them both at 35" high, the bp8b's are 38" high)

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post #18 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu View Post

MrRedrum, in your 22x16 room, how high are the ceilings? Does that room open to any other areas of the house, and if so, what are the dimensions (HxWxD) of those areas?

Thanks!

I would have to say 8' - 9' ceilings (leaning towards 9') and it's an open room into the kitchen and hallway to dining room, etc. lol spanning the length of the house and half the width. It is essentially an alcove of a great room. I can't really give exact dimensions since I won't be able to move in for a couple of months. I'm waiting on the current tenants' lease to run out so I can move in and as a result I don't have access to the house. However, the 15 x 12 room that it will be in until I move is closed off with 8' ceilings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I'm trying to find a difference between the BP8 and the BP6, but damned if I can see it. Same FR, same compliment of drivers, same size enclosure. There must be something for the extra $100 each.

I was actually wondering the same thing myself when I went to Definitive's website and saw absolutely no difference between the BP8B and BP6B and started questioning myself on why would I bother with the BP8B. But, I called my friend who works at Magnolia (which is a big part of the reason why I'm trying to get everything from there) and he informed me of basically what otk said. I think he said there was another difference or two but I can't remember now. Also, if I remember correctly, the BP8B's are essentially the BP7006's without the sub and the BP10B's are the BP7004's without the sub or something like that.

I'm currently debating between the BP8B's and BP10B's after this revelation haha. I was only really going for the BP7006's because they had a powered sub and were only $100 more for the pair compared to the BP10B's. I may even fall all the way back to the BP6B's since I know I can get them for only $500 for the pair. For now I think I'm going to plan on the BP10B's and see where things go when I'm ready to purchase at the end of the month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

Don't know why I'm looking at your speakers other than to save you some $ on the speakers so you can spend more on your sub/s. Will this system be primarily or exclusively for HT?

Thanks, I definitely appreciate any and all help, especially when it can save me money! This system will mainly be used to play movies and video games. I play a lot of video games and watch a good amount of movies lol. Every now and then (probably a lot more once I get the system) it'll play some music. It'll probably only be used when I'm watching a movie or playing a game so for regular TV I'll probably just stick to the TV speakers but I can't say for sure. Bottom line, it's going to get a lot of use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

How dead set are you on DefTech? Choosing speakers can be even more daunting than choosing a sub, but there are some nice package deals on speakers and sub at HSU HB/HC series and Ascend CMT series (which I keep getting drawn back to). SVS has some nice packages, but the better MTS/MTB speakers are probably over your budget. But the DTs are priced competitively.

I'm not trying to sell you on anything. Just trying to put you through the same hell I'm going through.

I'm certainly not dead set on anything. I just know I really enjoyed the way Def Tech sounds and have enjoyed it for awhile. My friend's father has had only Def Tech speakers and it's always been a treat to watch a movie with them. But as I said a little earlier, I'm more or less looking for the most stuff I can get from Magnolia because of my friend and the discounts he can give me. I'm just looking for a 7.1 setup with some serious bass which is why I'm having the most trouble deciding on a subwoofer.

I have actually looked at the HSU Ultra 1 package and I am considering it. As far as the SVS MTS-01 system goes, it's $500 over and 2 speakers less than what I would like, not to mention shipping. And I'm definitely going through the same hell as you so no worries there haha. At the end of the day though, we'll both be in home theater bliss.
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post #19 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MrRedrum View Post

I may even fall all the way back to the BP6B's since I know I can get them for only $500 for the pair. For now I think I'm going to plan on the BP10B's and see where things go when I'm ready to purchase at the end of the month.

there were some guys in the def tech thread picking up pairs of bp6b's for $300 a pair over at six ave electronics brand new in sealed boxes

same with clr-2002 (a little over $300)

not sure if they are still on sale but it's worth checking out if you have a six ave near you

i also heard that if you ask them for the sale price even after the sale they sometimes will honor the old sale price

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post #20 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 08:28 PM
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Why not use an entire Hsu set-up, and get a good price on the package deal? The horn-loaded speakers would be perfect for HT. I'm not sure that I would use bipolar speakers (DT's) for home theater.

JP
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post #21 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zora View Post

I'm not sure that I would use bipolar speakers (DT's) for home theater.

JP

i would

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post #22 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

there were some guys in the def tech thread picking up pairs of bp6b's for $300 a pair over at six ave electronics brand new in sealed boxes

same with clr-2002 (a little over $300)

not sure if they are still on sale but it's worth checking out if you have a six ave near you

i also heard that if you ask them for the sale price even after the sale they sometimes will honor the old sale price

Wow that is awesome! I don't believe I have any 6th ave around me (and I can't check right now since the site is temp. down) but I know I can get Magnolia to price match if that is actually the case so I'm a little excited now haha. Thanks a lot for that little piece of information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zora View Post

Why not use an entire Hsu set-up, and get a good price on the package deal? The horn-loaded speakers would be perfect for HT. I'm not sure that I would use bipolar speakers (DT's) for home theater.

JP

It's something that I'm thinking about. I'll figure it out more and see if I can possibly get a better price when I'm closer to buying and once I know for sure what Def Tech system I would want and the price I can get for that. I know that the HSU system would certainly cover every "bass" for me down to the wonderful 10Hz range. I just wish they had a local store so I could hear their speakers in person before putting forth any money. But as I said, it is definitely something I'm considering. If I could only find a way to get the ULS-15 sub down to the $699 price of the VTF-3 MK3 then I would be set and in heaven lol. After all of this I may just go with the SuperCube II or the REL T2 and damn near be back where I started haha. Argh! So many choices!
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post #23 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 09:01 PM
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hey i have nearly the same setup you are looking for, 7002s, clr2002, bpx surrounds and bp2x rears. I also have an older def tech pf1500 plus sub. i have the mains set to large. it is adequate bass, but i still dont feel that punch i want when an explosion goes off. you can turn up the knobs on all 3 of these but past 12oclock it just seems distorted, even though you can move furniture with the bass. of couse you may need to look into bass trapping, which i know nothing about to get the bass feel right in the room.
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post #24 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I don't believe DTs FR specs (17Hz) for an 8" sub.

With Dual 8" Passive Radiators..believe it !!!!
As is the so called claims of the Trinity Sub....I've heard it at the Trinity Church....believe it!!!

To the OP

In the case of the mains, one of the KEY things is sub integration. To think that using the AVRs bass managment to integrate a stand alone Mono sub as an improvement over the built in BP7006s is rediculous. Let the BP7006s do their thing set to large in the AVR, get a standalone sealed sub for 40 hz on down and be done with it. DefTech spent ALOT of engineering $$$ to get this right out of the box. Tweaking something is a great idea when it has practical purpose. In this case IMO it doesn't. Integrating a sub is a lot more than running the AVR calibration and setting the xover point. The type of filter used is dependant on the speaker, sub and room. The AVR doesn't have multiple filter slopes available, while the best one is already designed into the BP7006. You can ask an AVR these days to do a lot, but sometimes enough is enough. As for the using the Passive version and a dedicated sub, what will you gain over the BP7006 is the real question. The dual BP7006 will have dedicated 600 watts of power,2 high excursion 8" subs, 4 8" passive radiators in a properly tuned enclosure matched to the rolloff of the mid/high section of the enclosure available street price of about $1200. Now look at the passive options. The cheapest at $600 street price...that's a difference of $600. So this is the PROPOSED area where a stand alone sub can improve upon the performance of the BP7006s built in subs. Lets take a look. The closest price vs performance candidate would be the SVS PB12 NSD at $549 with shipping say$600 for arguement. So the Arguement is that such a sub will outperform the 2 seperate 300w amplifiers, 2 8" high excursion woofers, 4 8" PRs and 2 tune enclosures. The arguement also must include that the AVR will be able to improve the integration of the one unit with 2 seperate passive enclosures with a proper crossover slope where the charachteristic rolloff of the passive speaker is unknown. Does this make sense to you? or anyone else offering ideas in this thread. I doubt Dr. Hsu himself or a knowledgeble Rep from SVS could argue the point in favor of a stand alone sub in this case. Stick with your original plan. It makes more sense. If you do add a sub, make sure it plays lower than the BP7006s.

The only Hsu option that makes sense here and good sense if you can afford it is the ULS-15 with the BP7006s. The wireless feature will allow you to find the right spot for smoothing and output while the smaller footprint will actually let you put it there (LOL) Not to mention it will get you down to 10hz. Let the AVR bass managment and the sub controls do their job down low, around 40hz or so. It'll keep the higher octave bass response with the 8" drivers where it belongs.
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post #25 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 10:33 PM
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First off, using the 7006s to handle mid to upper bass is just what I mentioned in my first post. The problem is having a receiver that doesn't let you set XOs for each channel or channel pair. If you set the mains to large, then those will only go as low as the main allows. If you set them as small and XO at 40Hz and the other speakers fall off above that, then you lose the bass from those channels. Now, if you have a receiver that allows for multiple XOs, then your good. Set the mains to 40 and the others to 80.

A lot of companies are trying to get good subsonic bass in large BR boxes and some are successful. I have serious doubts DT has been able to do this, to a reasonably useful level, in the small section of the 7006s that is allocated to the sub section. To say the were successful with the Trinity means they were successful with the 700x series is not flawed reasoning. Oh, I'm sure they can make the driver oscillate at 17Hz, but I doubt there is useful levels down there.

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post #26 of 48 Old 01-11-2009, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

With Dual 8" Passive Radiators..believe it !!!!
As is the so called claims of the Trinity Sub....I've heard it at the Trinity Church....believe it!!!

To the OP

In the case of the mains, one of the KEY things is sub integration. To think that using the AVRs bass managment to integrate a stand alone Mono sub as an improvement over the built in BP7006s is rediculous. Let the BP7006s do their thing set to large in the AVR, get a standalone sealed sub for 40 hz on down and be done with it. DefTech spent ALOT of engineering $$$ to get this right out of the box. Tweaking something is a great idea when it has practical purpose. In this case IMO it doesn't. Integrating a sub is a lot more than running the AVR calibration and setting the xover point. The type of filter used is dependant on the speaker, sub and room. The AVR doesn't have multiple filter slopes available, while the best one is already designed into the BP7006. You can ask an AVR these days to do a lot, but sometimes enough is enough. As for the using the Passive version and a dedicated sub, what will you gain over the BP7006 is the real question. The dual BP7006 will have dedicated 600 watts of power,2 high excursion 8" subs, 4 8" passive radiators in a properly tuned enclosure matched to the rolloff of the mid/high section of the enclosure available street price of about $1200. Now look at the passive options. The cheapest at $600 street price...that's a difference of $600. So this is the PROPOSED area where a stand alone sub can improve upon the performance of the BP7006s built in subs. Lets take a look. The closest price vs performance candidate would be the SVS PB12 NSD at $549 with shipping say$600 for arguement. So the Arguement is that such a sub will outperform the 2 seperate 300w amplifiers, 2 8" high excursion woofers, 4 8" PRs and 2 tune enclosures. The arguement also must include that the AVR will be able to improve the integration of the one unit with 2 seperate passive enclosures with a proper crossover slope where the charachteristic rolloff of the passive speaker is unknown. Does this make sense to you? or anyone else offering ideas in this thread. I doubt Dr. Hsu himself or a knowledgeble Rep from SVS could argue the point in favor of a stand alone sub in this case. Stick with your original plan. It makes more sense. If you do add a sub, make sure it plays lower than the BP7006s.

The only Hsu option that makes sense here and good sense if you can afford it is the ULS-15 with the BP7006s. The wireless feature will allow you to find the right spot for smoothing and output while the smaller footprint will actually let you put it there (LOL) Not to mention it will get you down to 10hz. Let the AVR bass managment and the sub controls do their job down low, around 40hz or so. It'll keep the higher octave bass response with the 8" drivers where it belongs.

As you mentioned one of the keys is subwoofer integration. The fact of the matter is that the best location for main speakers is rarely the best location for subwoofers. Not only that why pay to duplicate subwoofers?

Dr. Hsu recommends placing his subwoofers in the corner, to maximize boundry reinforcement. If needed they can be moved to a more ideal location, (something you really can't do with full range speakers).

It makes no sense to restrict the ULS-15 to 40 Hz. You're just wasting money.

OTK has the right idea if the OP decides to stick with bipolar speakers. The BP6 is perfectly adequate with the ULS-15.
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post #27 of 48 Old 01-12-2009, 07:25 AM
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Multiple subs will improve in room response and will perform better than a single sub placed in the corner.......period.

If you want to put your sub in the corner for cabin gain, be my guest.

If you want a 15" sub driver to play up to 80hz, again go right ahead..do whatever makes sense to you.

The arguement was over a $600 stand alone sub being a performance improvement over the BP7006s. If you would like to argue that point, please do. I won't even ask you to include the other performance reductions such as the 2way vs three way design, or the 6.5" woofers having to cross higher and play lower.
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post #28 of 48 Old 01-12-2009, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

First off, using the 7006s to handle mid to upper bass is just what I mentioned in my first post. The problem is having a receiver that doesn't let you set XOs for each channel or channel pair. If you set the mains to large, then those will only go as low as the main allows. If you set them as small and XO at 40Hz and the other speakers fall off above that, then you lose the bass from those channels. Now, if you have a receiver that allows for multiple XOs, then your good. Set the mains to 40 and the others to 80.

A lot of companies are trying to get good subsonic bass in large BR boxes and some are successful. I have serious doubts DT has been able to do this, to a reasonably useful level, in the small section of the 7006s that is allocated to the sub section. To say the were successful with the Trinity means they were successful with the 700x series is not flawed reasoning. Oh, I'm sure they can make the driver oscillate at 17Hz, but I doubt there is useful levels down there.

Are you saying that that kind of freq extension isn't possible in a small enclosure or just that DefTech couldn't pull if off?
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post #29 of 48 Old 01-12-2009, 08:28 AM
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like i stated before, i have the def tech set up that everyone is talking about, 7002s plus a dedicated sub . I have tried the speakers set at small and large and honestly i thought that having them set at small and having the sub set to plus seemed to get the least distortion tightest bass. my room is 22x18 and even with the fronts set to large i dont feel as if the bass is good enough, i would get a better sub than a def tech.
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post #30 of 48 Old 01-12-2009, 08:29 AM
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I think you will be very happy with a VTF3 MK3 in max output...

Cacimar Hernandez
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