Paradigm Sub 12 & Sub 15 - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 831 Old 01-18-2011, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ELee View Post

This is very cliche', but this is one of the only upgrades my wife can actually notice a difference.

LOL when I bought my Sub 12 my wife commented on the difference she noticed after only 5 minutes into one of the kids favourite movies...and that was fresh out of the box with no PBK. !! She also commented right away when I hooked up my new Studio 40's and played a track from one of her CDs.
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post #542 of 831 Old 01-18-2011, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ELee View Post

Well, I got my sub 12s today and spent the afternoon setting them up. After gain matching them and running them through Audyssey XT, I listened to some of my favorite music and demoed some movie scenes and music blu rays (Avatar, Kung Fu Panda, The Dark Knight, Inception, John Mayer, Killers). Coming from a 5 year old SVS pb12-isd, these are a huge step up. While I don't have any fancy graphs or waterfalls to show you all, they clearly sound different. From the first test tone that audyssey ran, I could tell there was a different character to the sound. Music sounds so much tighter, clearer with less boominess and overhang. Movies have deep deep bass that fills my 4000 cu ft. room with ease. Because everything sounds so much tighter, I was able to increase the subwoofer setting on my pre pro +3 decibels. If I ran my svs hot, it was good with movies but I always thought it was too boomy with music. Anyway, I'm going to buy the perfect bass kit soon and it should only make things better. This is very cliche', but this is one of the only upgrades my wife can actually notice a difference. I demoed some jl audio fathoms and these seem on par with them. I'm very pleased!

Excellent. Glad they impress you in that relatively large room.
You got them for a steal too. You paid close to what ID companies are selling their similar subs for.

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post #543 of 831 Old 01-26-2011, 07:53 PM
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Got the message at home my subs are in. Getting them the day after I get back. If I didn't have this stuff to come home to, I might not want to leave Maui. It is just way too perfect on the beach here. Nobody is in a hurry.
We truly are on Island time!

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post #544 of 831 Old 01-27-2011, 10:00 AM
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So whats going on here buddy.....

How are the new toys...? Post up some pics....
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post #545 of 831 Old 01-27-2011, 03:35 PM
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A week tomorrow and I'll display some rose nut madness. Can't wait to see how these blend with my well-powered studio 100's. They are quite impressive speakers in the bass department with 300w on tap, but these sub 12's should bring some real presence and slam to music. Obviously, for HT, they have high expectations to transform the experience.

"The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price subsides"
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post #546 of 831 Old 01-28-2011, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Unobtainium View Post

A week tomorrow and I'll display some rose nut madness. Can't wait to see how these blend with my well-powered studio 100's. They are quite impressive speakers in the bass department with 300w on tap, but these sub 12's should bring some real presence and slam to music. Obviously, for HT, they have high expectations to transform the experience.

You are going to love those Sub 12s. And the rosenut finish is very easy on the eyes !
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post #547 of 831 Old 01-28-2011, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 519audiofan View Post

You are going to love those Sub 12s. And the rosenut finish is very easy on the eyes !

I have a Sub-12 coming Monday from my local dealer after a bad experience with 6ave. I'll post photo's after I'm set up.....just added Studio 60's and CC-590 yesterday.
I have a question though........my family room opens at one end, up two steps to the kitchen and then on to the dining room. That's a ton of open air. For those who have done it, would PBK calibration adjust sub performance to be equal of that in an enclosed room?
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post #548 of 831 Old 01-28-2011, 07:24 AM
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IFor those who have done it, would PBK calibration adjust sub performance to be equal of that in an enclosed room?

Nope. PBK does not increase output, it adjusts sound quality

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post #549 of 831 Old 01-28-2011, 10:33 AM
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Hey all. I currently have a setup consisting of SE1 fronts (thinking of going to the SE3 and expanding to a 7.1 setup), a SE Center, and Atom v.6 for surrounds. My current sub with this setup is the SE Sub. I am wondering if a Sub 12 would be overkill for my system. I am happy with the sound quality of the SE Sub, but am thinking I could use more lower end punch to get that visceral HT experience, but I don't want to be completely out of whack with the rest of the setup. Any thoughts?

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post #550 of 831 Old 01-28-2011, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

Nope. PBK does not increase output, it adjusts sound quality

Well I like that answer........I want the best sound quality I can get. The system is loud enough, I just want it to be accurate and as good as it can be. To be honest, I know I'm losing something in acoustics in a three walled room....but I don't know what it is I'm losing. Is it accuracy, oomph from the sub, dynamics? So, the PBK calibration may be a good choice. The problem is the price. If my dealer was smart he'd rent the PBK thing out to clients.....Paradigm would probably have him killed.
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post #551 of 831 Old 01-28-2011, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CytoM View Post

Well I like that answer........I want the best sound quality I can get. The system is loud enough, I just want it to be accurate and as good as it can be. To be honest, I know I'm losing something in acoustics in a three walled room....but I don't know what it is I'm losing. Is it accuracy, oomph from the sub, dynamics? So, the PBK calibration may be a good choice. The problem is the price. If my dealer was smart he'd rent the PBK thing out to clients.....Paradigm would probably have him killed.

If you're patient you can always look for a PBK on Audiogon or the Canuck Audio Mart. I picked one up in December for 50% of what I was quoted when I bought my sub. It makes a big difference though so you won't be disappointed with the results.
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post #552 of 831 Old 01-28-2011, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CytoM View Post

Well I like that answer........I want the best sound quality I can get. The system is loud enough, I just want it to be accurate and as good as it can be. To be honest, I know I'm losing something in acoustics in a three walled room....but I don't know what it is I'm losing. Is it accuracy, oomph from the sub, dynamics? So, the PBK calibration may be a good choice. The problem is the price. If my dealer was smart he'd rent the PBK thing out to clients.....Paradigm would probably have him killed.

Because bass sound travels everywhere and in all directions equally, your open space will cause the bass to have less tactile feel in your room. So you won't get as much kick when that loud explosions are played. The sub has to work harder to fill that open space

What the PBK does is even out the sound quality where you are sitting. Bass travels in waves and there are parts of the room where the waves are stronger (just like the sea waves are strong when it crashes around). With the PBK, you can use it to measure where the frequencies are uneven where you are sitting, and the software will equalize the sound so you get an accurate sense of tonality. So with it, a very low bass note will not drown out a slight higher pitch bass note, you'll hear both notes at the right level. That means you'll hear every bass note more clearly

Bascally the PBK adjusts the sound so what you are hearing is what you are supposed to hear. It's not going to cure any acoustically problems, it just does its best to give you the best sound possible for your particular room. Of course, if you have a room that has good acoustics, PBK will be able to even get better results for you.

I'm kind of simplifying things, but basically it's like having an audio engineer come in a tweak the frequency controls of the system with very high precision.

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post #553 of 831 Old 02-01-2011, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CytoM View Post

I have a Sub-12 coming Monday from my local dealer after a bad experience with 6ave. I'll post photo's after I'm set up.....just added Studio 60's and CC-590 yesterday.
I have a question though........my family room opens at one end, up two steps to the kitchen and then on to the dining room. That's a ton of open air. For those who have done it, would PBK calibration adjust sub performance to be equal of that in an enclosed room?

Any updates? Hopefully you are too busy using it!!!!!
3 more sleeps until I get my pair. Gonna be a great week-end.

"The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price subsides"
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post #554 of 831 Old 02-01-2011, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mxyzptlk View Post

Hey all. I currently have a setup consisting of SE1 fronts (thinking of going to the SE3 and expanding to a 7.1 setup), a SE Center, and Atom v.6 for surrounds. My current sub with this setup is the SE Sub. I am wondering if a Sub 12 would be overkill for my system. I am happy with the sound quality of the SE Sub, but am thinking I could use more lower end punch to get that visceral HT experience, but I don't want to be completely out of whack with the rest of the setup. Any thoughts?

I don't think it would be out of whack, just a whole bunch better. Just set your crossover at 80hz, or 100 if it's available on your receiver.
The sub 12 will be a huge step in performance. The SE sub is very nice looking, but isn't built in the same league as the the studio subs. It sounds like it's just what you want.

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post #555 of 831 Old 02-02-2011, 04:45 AM
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Any updates? Hopefully you are too busy using it!!!!!
3 more sleeps until I get my pair. Gonna be a great week-end.

Yeah Uno, thanks. I got the sub on Monday and had a buddy of mine come over and help me set-up. He's a Paradigm owner as well (Sig's and Servo sub-big system). We spent some time listening, moving the sub, listening, moving....he has enlightened me as to how the bass should really sound.
The big difference in the step up to the Studio's from the Monitor's is the soundstage. Now I know what people mean when they discuss that. I do hear things I didn't hear before and dialogue is sooo much better. The bass is cleaner, tighter, and less 'boomy' than the DSP-3400 I had. Part of that though is that the Sub-12 is now more away from the corner of the room than the 3400 was. I wasn't using the 3400 correctly.
Last night was the first night I had to just sit and take this system for a spin. I watched 'Night and Day' the Cruise/Diaz movie. Nice balance of dialogue and action to compare and enjoy. I tweaked the sub volume just a hair but all in all I am very, very happy. I can't imagine a system with TWO sub-12's......just awesome. The Sub-12 is a pitbull-love it.....and expect it to sound better after break-in.
I will post picture next week because I would like more comments about my three walled room. I'm sure many people have the same room acoustic challenge I have and I want to squeeze as much good sound as I can out of this arrangement. I'd love to get my hands on a used PBK to calibrate this sub.
The Rosenut finish is just beautiful-I was a coat of paint shy of getting the Cherry.
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post #556 of 831 Old 02-04-2011, 12:26 AM
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Can't sleep, too damn excited!
Could also be the red-eye from Maui I guess. 2 hours of "moderate" turbulence keeps a guy from sleeping.
Subs will be here around 1pm, post pics and first impressions around supper time I suppose.

"The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price subsides"
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post #557 of 831 Old 02-04-2011, 06:56 PM
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Well, the pics are crap, I'll take more later. I was in a hurry, wanted to crank it up!!



The subs are ridiculous. The blend on music with the 100's is amazing, and for HT they absolutely dominate the room, without any rattles. I'm going to get the guys to e-mail me the graphs, they were shocked at how good they were.
The placement has a little gain at 20hz, but almost perfectly flat to 200.
Watching Fifth Element right now, sounds great. There is no bloat, no slowing, and the bass has buttery layers to it and crazy headroom in my little 1700ft3 room.
More later...

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post #558 of 831 Old 02-04-2011, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unobtainium View Post

Well, the pics are crap, I'll take more later. I was in a hurry, wanted to crank it up!!



The subs are ridiculous. The blend on music with the 100's is amazing, and for HT they absolutely dominate the room, without any rattles. I'm going to get the guys to e-mail me the graphs, they were shocked at how good they were.
The placement has a little gain at 20hz, but almost perfectly flat to 200.
Watching Fifth Element right now, sounds great. There is no bloat, no slowing, and the bass has buttery layers to it and crazy headroom in my little 1700ft3 room.
More later...

Congrats on the Sub 12s. Just wait until they are broken in - you'll be amazed.
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post #559 of 831 Old 02-04-2011, 10:42 PM
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Broken in? I have hundreds of hours on my Sub 12 and it sounds no different than day 1 - always just right. The Sub 12 replaced a SVS PB12 Ultra - can't beat the PBK.
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post #560 of 831 Old 02-04-2011, 11:45 PM
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Yeah, PBK is a great tool. Real easy to do, and the subs sound great.
The sense of slam is impressive. Seems like I just have killer speakers on music, and for HT the bass fills the room.
The break-in I think is pretty short on a simple 1 driver deal like this. Watched Titan AE right after Dark Knight, and I turned the gain down a hair from 1/2 way. Seems fine now.
Upped the x-over to 100hz, seems like a better setting. The Eagles DVD didn't give the center any trouble with the higher x-over.
Had them running all day since 1:15, so 11 hours.
The HT is really tactile, with the bass rolling through the floor. When the frequency varies, the floor shakes in seemingly different spots. Kinda cool.
We upgraded to 10 lb underlay when we built, and there is 9" of spray foam under the floor, so it isn't the same rattling tactile feel as it was when I had the system years ago on a main floor hardwood surface with open joists over the laundry room. That got annoying, where this is quite different.

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post #561 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 04:27 AM
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Uno, quick question: what do you notice by changing the crossover to 100hz?
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post #562 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 04:49 AM
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is there a sonic benifit to placing the subs like this (the abive pics)? i also plan on 2 Sub 12's but figured i'd just place them a few feet apart. i was so into the placement of the rest of the speakers when designing my basement, i never thought much about the sub.
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post #563 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010SSRS View Post

is there a sonic benifit to placing the subs like this (the abive pics)? i also plan on 2 Sub 12's but figured i'd just place them a few feet apart. i was so into the placement of the rest of the speakers when designing my basement, i never thought much about the sub.

If you place the subs together, they act like one sub and you get the most output, but if you place them apart, they act like two subs and you get a more even output quality through the room. Because bass waves are very large, there are often areas where the bass is weaker throughout the room, and having a second sub fills in those voids. Quite often, people will place subs at opposite ends or corners of a room to get the best bass quality

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post #564 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

If you place the subs together, they act like one sub and you get the most output, but if you place them apart, they act like two subs and you get a more even output quality through the room. Because bass waves are very large, there are often areas where the bass is weaker throughout the room, and having a second sub fills in those voids. Quite often, people will place subs at opposite ends or corners of a room to get the best bass quality

i would like the better quality but in a 29'x25'x9' room, would it be better to keep them together? i'm going 7.1 with 100's, 690, ADP590 and 20's with twin Sub 12's. the entire roon is packed with insulation, soundboard and drywall.

what do you think?
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post #565 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 2010SSRS View Post

i would like the better quality but in a 29'x25'x9' room, would it be better to keep them together? i'm going 7.1 with 100's, 690, ADP590 and 20's with twin Sub 12's. the entire roon is packed with insulation, soundboard and drywall.

what do you think?


It's trial end error, but I would bet that you will get better response with one at each end of your room.
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post #566 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 07:54 AM
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I Have a DSP3200 and a DSP3400 that i would like to trade in for a sub 12!!! Do you all think that would be a big step up ????? And what price do ya think i should get for my 2 Subs USA $$$$$
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post #567 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010SSRS View Post

i would like the better quality but in a 29'x25'x9' room, would it be better to keep them together? i'm going 7.1 with 100's, 690, ADP590 and 20's with twin Sub 12's. the entire roon is packed with insulation, soundboard and drywall.

what do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dshred View Post

It's trial end error, but I would bet that you will get better response with one at each end of your room.

I agree, it's trial and error. The difference in output may be a couple of dB more when you co-locate them as opposed to keeping them apart, so it's not a big difference. It depends on how hard you run them. But the difference in sound quality can be quite noticeable when you keep them apart.

Here is one setup guide that offers some suggestions, and how-to

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...-calibration-1

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post #568 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 08:34 AM
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thanks for the info and the link fellas.......i think i'll re-route 1 of my XLR cables tonight!
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post #569 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary cornell View Post

Broken in? I have hundreds of hours on my Sub 12 and it sounds no different than day 1 - always just right. The Sub 12 replaced a SVS PB12 Ultra - can't beat the PBK.

Both the DSP 3200 I purchased in the fall of '09 and the Sub 12 I purchased last fall seemed to open up, compared to their performance right out of the box, after 4 weeks or so. It was almost like listening to an entirely differently sub. After PBKing the Sub 12 it again seemed to be an entirely different sub.
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post #570 of 831 Old 02-07-2011, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by George Fire Eagl View Post

I Have a DSP3200 and a DSP3400 that i would like to trade in for a sub 12!!! Do you all think that would be a big step up ????? And what price do ya think i should get for my 2 Subs USA $$$$$

I just traded in the 3400 for the Sub-12. Just do it. Take what you can get in a trade in and don't look back.
Set it up, and then pop in the BluRay 'Let Me In', and feel that opening bass drive in the first 2 minutes of the movie.
It's a great sequence to use to play with sub settings and placement.
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