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post #91 of 831 Old 11-29-2009, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamma Curve View Post

Had a chance to set up the sub correctly and run it through its paces. It truly is something amazing. First calibrated using PBK and then through Audyssey multi xt. Kung Fu Panda on BR was great. Deep extension and clear punch. No muddy bass here. Also ran Flight of the Phoenix on BR. The scene with the sand storm was amazing. It was room rattling, tight, loud and punchy bass. Fantastic. I bet a sub 15 would be felt rather than heard because of its low frequency extension but the sub 12 is really no slouch. I am really happy.

On the music side, I'll just say that you can HEAR every note with this sub. There is absolutely no muddiness.

BRAC, could you describe more about your dual sub 12 setup and what you noticed. Curious about a dual sub setup myself.

More effortless, more open/full, less restrained, bigger sweet spot...

The benefits of extra headroom are HUGE imo. I think when a single sub isn't working so hard to fill a space, it will sound more clean and controlled when you add a second.
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post #92 of 831 Old 11-30-2009, 07:23 AM
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Sorry to hear that... I did indeed setup my dual Sub 12's with the PBK-1 kit and it did help in my situation. I won't say it was night and day, because I was already making use of the MultEQ XT in my 3808, but it seemed to tighten things up a bit more. I tried to run my system with just the PBK eq and the bass sounded great, but I lost that "transparency" between channels that Audyssey does so well. So, basically I just kept the calculated PBK curves uploaded in each sub, then I eq'd the whole system with MultEQ XT. The results are excellent...

It could be that you are just not adjusted to a flat response. If you are getting huge peaks at certain frequencies it will certainly give you the impression of more bass, but the sub may in fact be revealing itself where it shouldn't be, due to poor room acoustics. I would suggest leaving the eq in the loop for awhile longer just to see if you can adjust. Another suggestion I have with regards to HT, and possibly music, is to run your sub a little HOT. I run my subs 2db HOT for movies. Most AVSers seem to be running their subs 2-3db HOT for movies, and some prefer even higher than that. An spl meter is essential for this process.

Btw, I used the exact same eq configuration on my single Sub 12, before adding my second, and that was my preferred setup when running the single unit as well.

Thanks BRAC.

I think I figured out my problem. I did the MultEQ XT setup a couple of weeks ago and my receiver set the sub output to zero. I set it back to plus 12 and got my bass back. I ordered some Studio 100v5 and a 690cc/v5 yesterday so once I get those I'll have to do the EQ setup again.

Should I do the speaker setup first or the sub first?
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post #93 of 831 Old 11-30-2009, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by dshred View Post

Thanks BRAC.

I think I figured out my problem. I did the MultEQ XT setup a couple of weeks ago and my receiver set the sub output to zero. I set it back to plus 12 and got my bass back. I ordered some Studio 100v5 and a 690cc/v5 yesterday so once I get those I'll have to do the EQ setup again.

Should I do the speaker setup first or the sub first?

Sub first...
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post #94 of 831 Old 12-07-2009, 09:23 AM
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Hi guys quick question on my sub setup...right now I have a Def Tech Supercube 1 and getting a Sub12 sometime this week. Could the Supercube 1 be used in a dual sub setup with the Sub12 ? Would it sound "off" since they're two different brands and one's a 10" and the other one a 12" ? By the way, the rest of the setup is: Studio 60 v5's, ADP590 v5's, Studio 20 v5's, and a Studio CC v2 center (690 coming within the month), Pioneer Elite SC-05 receiver.
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post #95 of 831 Old 12-10-2009, 09:46 AM
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Dealer coming saturday with SUB 12 and PBK, also bringing (2) Revel C52's. I'll have (3) C52's for L C R on an overhead shelf and Revel M20 rears with MC12. For just 2 channel, the SUB 12 with front C52's mated to Parasound JC1's and JC2. Room is 10' x 9' and should be amazing.
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post #96 of 831 Old 12-10-2009, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by gary cornell View Post

Dealer coming saturday with SUB 12 and PBK, also bringing (2) Revel C52's. I'll have (3) C52's for L C R on an overhead shelf and Revel M20 rears with MC12. For just 2 channel, the SUB 12 with front C52's mated to Parasound JC1's and JC2. Room is 10' x 9' and should be amazing.

take some pics
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post #97 of 831 Old 12-10-2009, 10:57 AM
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I can send easily with private email. Send me a PM and i'll be glad to.
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post #98 of 831 Old 12-10-2009, 04:17 PM
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The title says it all. Would you go for a sub12 now, knowing that in a year you are going to add a 2nd sub12, Or would you go for a single sub 15 now, and no second sub later.

Getting my new sub next wednesday and am having a tough decision on this one. The Sub15 does stretch the wallet a little more all at once and I am thinking the better performance will come with 2 sub 12s.

Little help or advise (and two sub15s is unfortunately not an answer).

Custom Home Theater Sales Specialist.
Newmarket, ON.
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post #99 of 831 Old 12-10-2009, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

The title says it all. Would you go for a sub12 now, knowing that in a year you are going to add a 2nd sub12, Or would you go for a single sub 15 now, and no second sub later.

Getting my new sub next wednesday and am having a tough decision on this one. The Sub15 does stretch the wallet a little more all at once and I am thinking the better performance will come with 2 sub 12s.

Little help or advise (and two sub15s is unfortunately not an answer).

2 sub 12's for a flatter response.
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post #100 of 831 Old 12-10-2009, 06:06 PM
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Flatter response can be easily acheived with the PBK. So is there any additional advantage to two subs over one?

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post #101 of 831 Old 12-10-2009, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

Flatter response can be easily acheived with the PBK. So is there any additional advantage to two subs over one?

it would further increase with 2.
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post #102 of 831 Old 12-11-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

The title says it all. Would you go for a sub12 now, knowing that in a year you are going to add a 2nd sub12, Or would you go for a single sub 15 now, and no second sub later.

Getting my new sub next wednesday and am having a tough decision on this one. The Sub15 does stretch the wallet a little more all at once and I am thinking the better performance will come with 2 sub 12s.

Little help or advise (and two sub15s is unfortunately not an answer).


What is your room size?
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post #103 of 831 Old 12-12-2009, 09:57 PM
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Initial room size will be 11x18x9 and open to a staircase and a hallway.

But when the basement is finished then it will be in a 12x22x8 open to slightly open to another area.

I always wanted to own a Servo 15, and it just seems like I am giving up some bottom end if I don't go with the Sub15.

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post #104 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 03:27 AM
 
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Where are the Sub15 pictures ? Come on people, don't be shy...

Regards,
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post #105 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 08:37 AM
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I have a Servo 15 V2 I think and it did have a little extra low end than the Sub 12 as GammaCurve can attest to since it was his sub 12 we pitted against mine Mine is adjusted with Anthem Room Correction but the PBK is equally adept at fixing the LFE.
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post #106 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 08:40 AM
 
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I wonder how the Servo LAM compares to the Sub15. It's still available so I wonder where it falls in the line up.

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post #107 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

I have a Servo 15 V2 I think and it did have a little extra low end than the Sub 12 as GammaCurve can attest to since it was his sub 12 we pitted against mine Mine is adjusted with Anthem Room Correction but the PBK is equally adept at fixing the LFE.
John

Was the difference in bottom end noticeable to the extent that it would make you purchase a 15 over a 12.

I think I am leaning towards a 12 this week, and then when the basement is comeplete some time in 2010, add a second sub 12. I understand the improvement in flatter response, a slight increase in dB.

But does any of that undermine the ability of IN ROOM low frequency extension that the Sub15 may have over the Sub12?

Custom Home Theater Sales Specialist.
Newmarket, ON.
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post #108 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 09:25 AM
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A 12" driver will move less air, and therfore only have less low end output compared to a 15" driver... of coarse this also depends on room size, If your HT is in a closet you should have no trouble getting good room gain down low... what I mean is if your room is small you can get plenty of good performance with a 12, but if its medium then go for a bigger driver, more excursion/power to dig deep. I have had subs that hit the mid to low teens but have grown to appreciate better performing drivers in the normal hearing range roughly around 20hz, a touch lower is nice, but not all that big a deal to me.. good output down to 17hz is more then plenty for me, with better mid and upper bass precision, punch and clarity IMO.


What is your room size...?


If you really want low output go with the bigger driver... add a second later down the road for better in room balance...
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post #109 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

A 12" driver will move less air, and therfore only have less low end output compared to a 15" driver... of coarse this also depends on room size, If your HT is in a closet you should have no trouble getting good room gain down low... what I mean is if your room is small you can get plenty of good performance with a 12, but if its medium then go for a bigger driver, more excursion/power to dig deep. I have had subs that hit the mid to low teens but have grown to appreciate better performing drivers in the normal hearing range roughly around 20hz, a touch lower is nice, but not all that big a deal to me.. good output down to 17hz is more then plenty for me, with better mid and upper bass precision, punch and clarity IMO.


What is your room size...?


If you really want low output go with the bigger driver... add a second later down the road for better in room balance...

Initial room size will be 11x18x9 and open to a staircase and a hallway.

But when the basement is finished then it will be in a 12x22x8 open to slightly open to another area.

Custom Home Theater Sales Specialist.
Newmarket, ON.
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post #110 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

Initial room size will be 11x18x9 and open to a staircase and a hallway.

But when the basement is finished then it will be in a 12x22x8 open to slightly open to another area.

1782^3 in the first room and 2112^3 for the second... hardly a difference between the 2. You should be including all the open areas to these dimensions, but I can tell you that I have a F112 in my bedroom which is the same size as your smaller room which would basically equal the Sub12 and its stupid output, I don't feel the need to add a second even though I can't. You should get lots of low end room gain boosted performance which will be more then adequate IMO...

The 15 may get you a bit more rumble below 20hz, but not necessary IMO. I would go withy a 12 and add a 12 if you really feel compelled later down the line. Paradigms subs are sounding pretty competant, They deffinately upped the performance mark on their new lines of subs, and will likely easily perform on par with the JL's.

Room size is everything - it has taken me 3 x 18" + 1 - 15" in my great room (HUGE-MUNGOUS) to get the same performance from my single 12" in that small bedroom.
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post #111 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

Was the difference in bottom end noticeable to the extent that it would make you purchase a 15 over a 12.

I think I am leaning towards a 12 this week, and then when the basement is comeplete some time in 2010, add a second sub 12. I understand the improvement in flatter response, a slight increase in dB.

But does any of that undermine the ability of IN ROOM low frequency extension that the Sub15 may have over the Sub12?

When we tried the two subs in my room, the servo 15 did go lower. My room is 14' x 25' and gammacurve's is 14 x 18. In my room and in his, there was a noticeable bottom end diff. Again, his had PBK and mine ARC. We tested many BDs and both of our impressions were the same. Is it worth the price, well that is a hard question to answer. No concern about $, go for it but your tastes will also affect your decision. I live in Mississauga and if you wanted to hear a test of the servo I could arrange a time for you to hear it or FEEL it with EQ on. It does make a lot of diff having the PBK or ARC correct the sub.
PM me if interested.
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post #112 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

The title says it all. Would you go for a sub12 now, knowing that in a year you are going to add a 2nd sub12, Or would you go for a single sub 15 now, and no second sub later.

Getting my new sub next wednesday and am having a tough decision on this one. The Sub15 does stretch the wallet a little more all at once and I am thinking the better performance will come with 2 sub 12s.

Little help or advise (and two sub15s is unfortunately not an answer).


My understanding of multiple subs for our sized rooms is to improve freq. response. With PBK, this is unlikely to be an issue. Either the sub 12 or 15 will move air and PBK will fix freq resp. for multiple positions in your room.
John

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post #113 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

My understanding of multiple subs for our sized rooms is to improve freq. response. With PBK, this is unlikely to be an issue. Either the sub 12 or 15 will move air and PBK will fix freq resp. for multiple positions in your room.
John

matjet has a 14 x 18 room using 2 sub 25's, i think he plans to add 1 sub 2. would that be overkill?or would that just improve the freq. response that much more?
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post #114 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 04:44 PM
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Depends how hot he likes to listen, but it def will aid in evening out his in room response.... he should look at getting something like the DCX 2496 to taylor his bass response at the LP... the arrival times get messed up with different positioning... ask me, I know all about having subs scattered all over my room in different locations and distances.... I though it was good bass before, until I added the DCX to tweak each sub separately. Now things are absolutely amazing 4 subs 16kws of power behind them...

If he doesn't address the different distances which it sounds like he is going to add a sub just behind his seating location that will probably need to add delay so they all hit at the same time at the same place, he will have a muddied mess. blurring the bass instead of just adding to it and also adjusting the crossover for that rear placement sub, because of the different wavelengths they will not perform properly together... the rear sub being closer will need a lower low pass compared to the 2 that are placed right next to the mains if thats how he has them...
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post #115 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Depends how hot he likes to listen, but it def will aid in evening out his in room response.... he should look at getting something like the DCX 2496 to taylor his bass response at the LP... the arrival times get messed up with different positioning... ask me, I know all about having subs scattered all over my room in different locations and distances.... I though it was good bass before, until I added the DCX to tweak each sub separately. Now things are absolutely amazing 4 subs 16kws of power behind them...

If he doesn't address the different distances which it sounds like he is going to add a sub just behind his seating location that will probably need to add delay so they all hit at the same time at the same place, he will have a muddied mess. blurring the bass instead of just adding to it and also adjusting the crossover for that rear placement sub, because of the different wavelengths they will not perform properly together... the rear sub being closer will need a lower low pass compared to the 2 that are placed right next to the mains if thats how he has them...

Thank you for the advice!
Won't my processor Speaker distance set up accomodate for the different distances of the subs?
I figured the Paradigm Perfect Bass Kit would take care of the EQ.
I looked at DCX 2496 information, it looks like a time consuming, fairly complex project.
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post #116 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 06:36 PM
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matjet,

IMHO, I think the freq response will be taken care of with PBK. For that size room it is hard to believe another sub is needed perhaps desired but not necessary. I was at the Paradigm factory home theater which is a huge room equipped with four sub 25s. I asked why they used four and the answer was, to smooth out freq that this room made difficult to tame and not to increase SPL.
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post #117 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

When we tried the two subs in my room, the servo 15 did go lower. My room is 14' x 25' and gammacurve's is 14 x 18. In my room and in his, there was a noticeable bottom end diff. Again, his had PBK and mine ARC. We tested many BDs and both of our impressions were the same. Is it worth the price, well that is a hard question to answer. No concern about $, go for it but your tastes will also affect your decision. I live in Mississauga and if you wanted to hear a test of the servo I could arrange a time for you to hear it or FEEL it with EQ on. It does make a lot of diff having the PBK or ARC correct the sub.
PM me if interested.
John

What I am taking away from this is that I don't have a huge space to fill with bass, in either my family room, or the soon to be completed basement.

I guess my last question to you, John, is (in your opinion) was the lower extension noticeable to the point that when you switched back to the sub 12,
it took some enjoyment away. Or was the difference minor?

Custom Home Theater Sales Specialist.
Newmarket, ON.
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post #118 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 06:46 PM
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I forget that I have DIY subs and your subs have variable phasing, just make sure that is setup for the proper time alignment.... How do you run PBK for multiple subs as a whole.... ?
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post #119 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

My understanding of multiple subs for our sized rooms is to improve freq. response. With PBK, this is unlikely to be an issue. Either the sub 12 or 15 will move air and PBK will fix freq resp. for multiple positions in your room.
John

I agree with your assessment of improved frequency response, but I have personally observed greater overall benefits by going duals. My room is open on one back corner leading upstairs and to the laundry area, but it would still be less than 2000 cubic feet of total area. At first I had one PBK'd Sub 12, and now dual PBK'd Sub 12's, imho the difference is very significant. See my post at the top of this page for a brief description of my personal impressions...
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post #120 of 831 Old 12-13-2009, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Peddle View Post

What I am taking away from this is that I don't have a huge space to fill with bass, in either my family room, or the soon to be completed basement.

I guess my last question to you, John, is (in your opinion) was the lower extension noticeable to the point that when you switched back to the sub 12,
it took some enjoyment away. Or was the difference minor?

I was used to my servo 15 so I was spoiled. The sub 12 sounds great in my friends theatre and he is very pleased. He was considering the sub 15 but cost was the final determiner. The diff is not a game breaker.
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