BIC America F12 sub anyone ? - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 2862 Old 11-08-2009, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Xplosive View Post

A burn-in process is the warming-up phase. Playing anything at their full capacity on first attempt is not a good idea. A burn-in process also help develop fuller sound... I know with my In-Ear Monitors (IEMs) need 50-100 hours of burn-in before reaching its max potential. I'm not quite sure if this also applies to subs though. I pretty much do burn-ins for all my components.

No flame intended but I'd love to see a link to the documentation that specifies that requirement.
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post #632 of 2862 Old 11-08-2009, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Xplosive View Post

no need for burn-in i guess...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplosive View Post

A burn-in process is the warming-up phase. Playing anything at their full capacity on first attempt is not a good idea. A burn-in process also help develop fuller sound... I know with my In-Ear Monitors (IEMs) need 50-100 hours of burn-in before reaching its max potential. I'm not quite sure if this also applies to subs though. I pretty much do burn-ins for all my components.

For the real story this is a great article from a guy who knows what he's talkin bout. Burn in, break in, hogwash, just like you have to break in a new care right...

http://www.audioholics.com/education...act-or-fiction
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post #633 of 2862 Old 11-08-2009, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by samsurd2 View Post

No flame intended but I'd love to see a link to the documentation that specifies that requirement.

Never said it was a requirement but all my IEMs sound better than in the beginning. That's for sure and most people who own mid-high tier IEMs would agree with me. Head over to Head-Fi forums and most people will say the same thing.
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post #634 of 2862 Old 11-09-2009, 07:14 AM
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Ah ok thanks for the info. I haven't pushed my sub at all, I live in an apartment with neighbors, and have never had this much bass available to me, so I am content with keeping it low to medium.

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post #635 of 2862 Old 11-09-2009, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Xplosive View Post

Never said it was a requirement but all my IEMs sound better than in the beginning. That's for sure and most people who own mid-high tier IEMs would agree with me. Head over to Head-Fi forums and most people will say the same thing.

Thats cuz most people in forums really don't know what they are talking about when it comes to 'break in.' They simply listen to what someone else who said something about break in said. If you go to any 'high end' retail store and talk to the owner, he's likely been doing it a while, they laugh when asked about break in times for electronics, speakers included. Take a moment to read the article I posted, there are plenty more where that came from too. I was lucky to attend a fairly rare tour of the Paradigm factory in Ontario Canada a while back. Part of the tour was guided by Mark Aling, marketing manager. At the driver section of the plant, assembly line, he told us that each and every driver is breifly attached to a sign wave to test that they work and that also immediatly breaks them in. The end user can plug them in at home and turn it up as loud as they want. I'll take his word for it!
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post #636 of 2862 Old 11-09-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Xplosive View Post

I went with the Denon AVR1610. Hopefully this will hold up well paired with the Energy Take 5 Classic and the F12 sub. I'm just afraid that the mini satellites will lack midrange. And not quite sure how this setup will sound. I'm going on a limb here lol My whole bedroom is carpeted... Does that affect the bass output as to a hardwood-based room? I'm no audiophile but I take it the sound waves won't reflect (bounce) as well as they do in hardwood floors. Now how does that translate to our hearing?

But if this $600 setup is worth the extra $200 from a HTIB, I'll be satisfied.

I'm curious about a similar setup. I've got a baby on the way, so I'm on a bit of a budget, ideally, around $600-700 won't be difficult to convince the wife to go for. I'm thinking of starting with the Energy Take 5 Classics ($150 from Newegg seems like a steal) and an Onkyo HT-RC160 ($350 from Newegg with the Ipod Dock). I was interested in possibly picking up one F12, and at ~$170 until I noticed that the Energy ESW-8HG is at the local Costco for $99. So, that got me thinking... Would I be better off with one F12 or two ESW-8HG's? The Onkyo receiver is 7.2 capable, and I'd eventually like to add some larger front main speakers when I have some extra money. Music performance would be important to me. My room is about 14'x18' with 13' vaulted ceilings.
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post #637 of 2862 Old 11-09-2009, 03:31 PM
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Wow i cant believe i just read this whole thread, and to be honest about 50% of it was bickering and personal flames directed to eachother..

other than that nonsense i have some questions reguarding this sub...

Im in the market to buy a sub for around $200, there are a few options out there for me. I mostly use my HT system to listen to music through my computer, which connected by a S/PDIF wire to my Onkyo HT-R550 receiver.

These are my options
-Jamo 300sub - $180 shipped
-Chrysalis by Velodyne Starfire 10 - $200 picked up from a warehouse around here (cant find any for under 250 shipped)
-BIC F12 - $203 shipped

It seems as every store is sold out or on backorder with the BIC F12, i have only found one store that says in stock but that might be misleading.

Thanks for the suggestions
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post #638 of 2862 Old 11-09-2009, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by B00G View Post

I'm curious about a similar setup. I've got a baby on the way, so I'm on a bit of a budget, ideally, around $600-700 won't be difficult to convince the wife to go for. I'm thinking of starting with the Energy Take 5 Classics ($150 from Newegg seems like a steal) and an Onkyo HT-RC160 ($350 from Newegg with the Ipod Dock). I was interested in possibly picking up one F12, and at ~$170 until I noticed that the Energy ESW-8HG is at the local Costco for $99. So, that got me thinking... Would I be better off with one F12 or two ESW-8HG's? The Onkyo receiver is 7.2 capable, and I'd eventually like to add some larger front main speakers when I have some extra money. Music performance would be important to me. My room is about 14'x18' with 13' vaulted ceilings.

I had also considered the Energy 8HG until I found out it's really only a 60 watt sub (marketed as a 200 w). It fell out of contention on that note.
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post #639 of 2862 Old 11-09-2009, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enphenate View Post

Wow i cant believe i just read this whole thread, and to be honest about 50% of it was bickering and personal flames directed to eachother..

other than that nonsense i have some questions reguarding this sub...

Im in the market to buy a sub for around $200, there are a few options out there for me. I mostly use my HT system to listen to music through my computer, which connected by a S/PDIF wire to my Onkyo HT-R550 receiver.

These are my options
-Jamo 300sub - $180 shipped
-Chrysalis by Velodyne Starfire 10 - $200 picked up from a warehouse around here (cant find any for under 250 shipped)
-BIC F12 - $203 shipped

It seems as every store is sold out or on backorder with the BIC F12, i have only found one store that says in stock but that might be misleading.

Thanks for the suggestions

Had fun reading all those posts..ehh?

By looking at the specs of those subs, the F12 has better specs and will dig deeper. The F12 can't be beat for it's price point.

For all you wanting to get your hands on one, try to be patient. They should be back in stock soon at online retailers. They usually show back in stock on websites every 3 or 4 weeks. Keep checking Beach Audio, The Nerds, Amazon..and all the other sites mentioned in this thread. It's worth the wait. I have seen Amazon offer it for $167.00 shipped if you preorder, so keep and eye on them because that deal may show up anytime. Granted they might not get it in for a month, but your locked in at that price.

Also, if you are looking for a musical sub rather than HT..the Mirage's are pretty good for music, and are in your price range.

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post #640 of 2862 Old 11-09-2009, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ken15 View Post

I had also considered the Energy 8HG until I found out it's really only a 60 watt sub (marketed as a 200 w). It fell out of contention on that note.

Wow, that's all? I thought it was odd that they didn't state Peak and RMS power on their website.
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post #641 of 2862 Old 11-09-2009, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by B00G View Post

Wow, that's all? I thought it was odd that they didn't state Peak and RMS power on their website.

Hang around here some more and you'll cut through the marketing BS no time flat. Another spec they like to inflate is the avr's power output so watch out for that one.
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post #642 of 2862 Old 11-09-2009, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Had fun reading all those posts..ehh?

By looking at the specs of those subs, the F12 has better specs and will dig deeper. The F12 can't be beat for it's price point.

For all you wanting to get your hands on one, try to be patient. They should be back in stock soon at online retailers. They usually show back in stock on websites every 3 or 4 weeks. Keep checking Beach Audio, The Nerds, Amazon..and all the other sites mentioned in this thread. It's worth the wait. I have seen Amazon offer it for $167.00 shipped if you preorder, so keep and eye on them because that deal may show up anytime. Granted they might not get it in for a month, but your locked in at that price.

Also, if you are looking for a musical sub rather than HT..the Mirage's are pretty good for music, and are in your price range.

to be honest reading this thread almost made me not even want to discuss or look into this sub and maybe drop the internet for a few hours

anyways i am going to do a little more research... i can get such great deals with all 3 subs, the jamo300 from vanns, the Chrysalis by Velodyne Starfire-10 for 200 picked up from a local warehouse (which i would much rather support than just some website), or the f12 from this 1 site that says its availiable but im going to call to make sure.

Amazon has the F12 listed for $349.99

honestly i make 90% of my HT system use with music (my HT is plugged into my computer and i listen to music through my computer almost every minute that its on)
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post #643 of 2862 Old 11-10-2009, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ken15 View Post

Hang around here some more and you'll cut through the marketing BS no time flat. Another spec they like to inflate is the avr's power output so watch out for that one.

I just looked at the owner's manual on the Energy site, and it's actually only rated for 50 watts RMS. I think that pretty much seals the deal... I don't think two of them would even be powerful enough for my space. The F12 is on order
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post #644 of 2862 Old 11-10-2009, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B00G View Post

I'm curious about a similar setup. I've got a baby on the way, so I'm on a bit of a budget, ideally, around $600-700 won't be difficult to convince the wife to go for. I'm thinking of starting with the Energy Take 5 Classics ($150 from Newegg seems like a steal) and an Onkyo HT-RC160 ($350 from Newegg with the Ipod Dock). I was interested in possibly picking up one F12, and at ~$170 until I noticed that the Energy ESW-8HG is at the local Costco for $99. So, that got me thinking... Would I be better off with one F12 or two ESW-8HG's? The Onkyo receiver is 7.2 capable, and I'd eventually like to add some larger front main speakers when I have some extra money. Music performance would be important to me. My room is about 14'x18' with 13' vaulted ceilings.

If I can offer my personal opinion, I think you're spending too much of your budget on a receiver and too little on the speakers. At this price point, better speakers will make a bigger impact than better receiver, especially when you say that "music performance would be important to me". Those tiny 3" drivers in Energy Take 5 may be OK for movies, but I think you'll be disappointed in their music reproduction - you'll have to cross them over relatively high - probably at around 120-150Hz, which isn't ideal. You really don't want the sub to be playing anything higher than 80-100 Hz. If this was my budget, I would go with these instead:

http://www.wwstereo.com/website/ecom...roduct=E660PKG

For another $50 you can pick up two smaller bookshelf speakers for surround duty.

And yeah, get the F12 sub.

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post #645 of 2862 Old 11-10-2009, 10:24 AM
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If I can offer my personal opinion, I think you're spending too much of your budget on a receiver and too little on the speakers. At this price point, better speakers will make a bigger impact than better receiver, especially when you say that "music performance would be important to me". Those tiny 3" drivers in Energy Take 5 may be OK for movies, but I think you'll be disappointed in their music reproduction - you'll have to cross them over relatively high - probably at around 120-150Hz, which isn't ideal. You really don't want the sub to be playing anything higher than 80-100 Hz. If this was my budget, I would go with these instead:

http://www.wwstereo.com/website/ecom...roduct=E660PKG

For another $50 you can pick up two smaller bookshelf speakers for surround duty.

And yeah, get the F12 sub.

Right, but then what kind of receiver can I get for under $300 for my budget?
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post #646 of 2862 Old 11-10-2009, 11:00 AM
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Right, but then what kind of receiver can I get for under $300 for my budget?

Not sure what specific features you're looking for, but this would probably do:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...r-Black/1.html

Or this:
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it...neer-vsx-519vk

Or this if you need the iPod dock:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882120131

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post #647 of 2862 Old 11-10-2009, 02:51 PM
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Great. Thanks for the suggestions Pete. I'll keep those in mind.
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post #648 of 2862 Old 11-11-2009, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by B00G View Post

Great. Thanks for the suggestions Pete. I'll keep those in mind.

And don't forget the Yamaha, for only $329. (also includes a free iPod dock). As suggested, make sure what you get has the features you want:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882115194

What is that one guy's sig? "Purchase receivers for features and speakers for sound quality?" Something like that...


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post #649 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 08:40 AM
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Anyone know where the F12 is in-stock????

Amazon is only one I found, but for some reason now they're asking 350$ for it??!! For $350 I might as well go with an ED sub right?

I'm hoping to pair it with the Energy Classic Take 5, and Pioneer VSX 1019
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post #650 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 09:48 AM
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Burn in is going to depend on the driver (stiff spider) and the manufacturer (run them at the factory).

The spider does break in. Here are 2 experienced speaker builders/designers who say it does:
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

Again, especially if the spider is specced stiff then you will get changes to parameters.

edit: looking at the audioholics article it seems they argue the burn in changes are insignificant to FR, in a lot of cases this is probably true as the parameters are tied together (e.g. i believe vas and fs change together), however, the parameters DO change, and for some designs more than others this should be audible.
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post #651 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 11:18 AM
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Quote:


Anyone know where the F12 is in-stock????

Amazon is only one I found, but for some reason now they're asking 350$ for it??!! For $350 I might as well go with an ED sub right?

I'm hoping to pair it with the Energy Classic Take 5, and Pioneer VSX 1019

Mine ended up coming in from thenerds.net, total cost to me was 179 shipped. I am still messing around with settings but it sounds prety good to me..especially for 179. I think amazon.com is asking 350 for them knowing that everyone else is backordered. I wouldn't spend 350 on it when others are getting it for half the price. I would just wait until the rest have it in stock for 179 or so, or order something else.
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post #652 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemist1117 View Post

Burn in is going to depend on the driver (stiff spider) and the manufacturer (run them at the factory).

The spider does break in. Here are 2 experienced speaker builders/designers who say it does:
http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

Again, especially if the spider is specced stiff then you will get changes to parameters.

edit: looking at the audioholics article it seems they argue the burn in changes are insignificant to FR, in a lot of cases this is probably true as the parameters are tied together (e.g. i believe vas and fs change together), however, the parameters DO change, and for some designs more than others this should be audible.

As I've said before in this thread, there's normally 50% will say one thing and another 50% will refute it. Kind of like politics and politicians. You could come up with 20 more articles showing the same as this one; I could come up with 20 more showing the opposite. In the end, I don't disagree with these findings at all! I believe some people might think they have to play their new speakers/sub woofer at minimum volume for 40 or 50 hours to 'burn it in' or break it in and I don' think that is needed. Plug it in, enjoy it, turn it up, crank it, whatever you want, it will get broken in eventually if it's needed like it or not. I want to crank it right away just like I want to drive the crap out of a new car to see if it will break. If it's gonna break it will be when you first have it. No point in babying a speaker for 6 months then cranking it only to find out it blows when cranked! Maybe too late to get it replaced.
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post #653 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 12:55 PM
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Does anyone know of a place to get the BIC America F12 for around $200 still? I see Amazon at $350, but that's it...

What is the next best replacement at $200 or less?

Casey

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post #654 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 02:05 PM
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I tried ordering one from GDI Electronics, as they showed availability, but learned today that they were actually on backorder, so I canceled my order. I haven't been able to find them in-stock anywhere for under $200.
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post #655 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 02:25 PM
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Best places to keep checking are www.beachaudio.com, www.thenerds.net, and amazon

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post #656 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken15 View Post

Hang around here some more and you'll cut through the marketing BS no time flat. Another spec they like to inflate is the avr's power output so watch out for that one.

I guarantee the avr you run is over-rated on it's website and outputs probably closer to half it's rated specs but you still enjoy it right? When it takes 1 watt of power to produce 90db's of sound do you care if you have 200wpc? For a very small few with power-hungry speakers it does...but for the other 99% of people it doesn't. Sure it's misleading but stating a subwoofers peak power on it's website is not exactly misleading, it's something basically every manufacturer does. There aren't many Harman Kardons in this world who state an honest spec.

Anyway, with subwoofers the 'wattage' doesn't determine the ouput alone. The efficiency of the driver combined with the wattage has alot more to do with it. Just because the Energy sub is 60w rms doesn't mean it will not output as much spl as the Velodyne or Jamo.
Saying "it fell out of contention" just because of the stated 60w of power is failing to judge it by it's true output...which is really all that matters in this case.

This is why true in-room measurements would be much more effective in determining output but as it's been said before....not many people care enough about these entry level subs to take the time to run REW or other programs to measure it. So we are left to haggle about it on AVS
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post #657 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

As I've said before in this thread, there's normally 50% will say one thing and another 50% will refute it. Kind of like politics and politicians.

I think a lot of that could stem from speaker to speaker variation w/ regard to specs (again stiff or loose spider, woofer vs. tweeter). Definitely if you have a stiff spider there will be break in, and especially if you have a long throw subwoofer you will almost certainly have break in due to the spider having to stretch such a wide span, compared with, say a tweeter or mid. Babying it will just slow the break in, and i agree, just use the damn thing, itll break in on its own.

Again, with most speakers probably not an issue, but if it is specced with a large x-max you will probably have break in over time and changes due to the spider loosening up.
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post #658 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 03:27 PM
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Has anyone positioned their sub right next to the couch or bed? Is it ok to set it up like that?
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post #659 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Xplosive View Post

Has anyone positioned their sub right next to the couch or bed? Is it ok to set it up like that?

Nothing wrong with that if that gives you the best bass response. I'm assuming you've tried other placements and for one reason or another they didn't work as well?

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post #660 of 2862 Old 11-12-2009, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete7874 View Post

Nothing wrong with that if that gives you the best bass response. I'm assuming you've tried other placements and for one reason or another they didn't work as well?

I tried placing it in the corner but there's a rolling clothes-hanger setup with a full set of clothes/shirts right next to that specific corner and it feels like it's stopping the distribution of the bass abruptly and did not get a good bass response at all. Now the sub is situated with a clear path except for the bed next to it and the surround speaker as well. I'm waiting for a longer coaxial sub cable now so I can't test it now. If I get crap bass response again, does it mean I have a lemon driver unit? How can I make sure it's not defective? I was looking through this thread and there were posters talking about wall/window shaking bass during parts of movies... I put in The Dark Knight and did not get that feeling... Not even when the truck flipped over with the Joker in it. I was supposed to get a massive low-end rumble, no? It just seemed at that moment, everything was muted down until Batman flips his motorcycle against the wall, the sound sets in again at normal volume... Not sure if anyone knows what I'm talking about here... I just think something's not right here.
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