BIC America F12 sub anyone ? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 2839 Old 03-14-2009, 10:32 AM
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pulled the trigger @ twister group...don't know if it's an authorized dealer, but they're one of the biggest e-tailers so I would think so.

either way, shipping was decent to canada (66$) - lol we get raped - but im gonna get hit with duty...can't wait!! lol
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post #92 of 2839 Old 03-14-2009, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myke256 View Post

well, my current sub only goes down to 40hz, the 25 seems good. this is a pretty big sub, 12", I just don't want it to be too 'boomy'. are there any other alternatives besides this? I've only seen the PA-120, but I'm leaning towards this one because of the price, from what I've read it F12 and PA120 are about equal in quality.

Use audyssey then manual tweaks.
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post #93 of 2839 Old 03-15-2009, 05:23 PM
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On my current watch list:

Bic F12: 150w RMS/12"/25Hz/42lbs/~$200 shipped
PA-120: 200w RMS/12"/24Hz/60lbs/~$230 shipped
tSc T250: 250w RMS/10"/23Hz/31lbs/$250 shipped

Compared to a proven performer...
eD A2-300: 250w RMS/12"/18Hz/71lbs/$350 shipped

The Speaker Company's sub is the smallest driver, but has the most power, lowest frequency response and has a rubber surround (not foam). It also weighs significantly less than the other two, which is concerning, so for that reason I'm leaning toward the PA. However, the Bic and PA are not spec'ed as having BASH amps while the T250 is- anyone think that matters? I'd love to go for the eD, but I think $250 is my price cap. The Bic VK-12 can be had for $330 shipped, but for $20 more, I'd say the eD is a much better choice.

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post #94 of 2839 Old 03-15-2009, 10:12 PM
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475-watt peak amplifier designed by BASH Technology in combination with a 12" injection molded long-throw woofer

http://www.bicamerica.com/showpage.p...pe=8&spkrID=84
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post #95 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 08:56 AM
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Gewow,

Haha, I missed that. I was looking under the specifications list rather than the summary. You'd think that would be a feature they would list! Well then considering how poorly the PA website is put together, there's probably a good chance the 120 is BASH as well. Can anyone confirm?

And what about the Bic V series?

Bic V1520: 275w RMS/15"/22Hz/54lbs/$255 shipped

It's not a true home theater unless you have a projector. Oh, and popcorn.
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post #96 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 01:57 PM
 
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I wouldn't buy one of those subs...Just on the principle that Bic is trying to pull the wool over the consumers eyes by putting in large print the 'peak' power and the RMS power smaller and after that...And at "peak" that power rating will be nothing but distortion...
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post #97 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

I wouldn't buy one of those subs...Just on the principle that Bic is trying to pull the wool over the consumers eyes by putting in large print the 'peak' power and the RMS power smaller and after that...And at "peak" that power rating will be nothing but distortion...

Most, if not all manufacturers advertise "Peak" and "RMS" with the amps. It's not just BIC.

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post #98 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 05:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Most, if not all manufacturers advertise "Peak" and "RMS" with the amps. It's not just BIC.

Only the ones that are trying to 'trick' someone into buying something it isn't...ANY reputable manufactuer lists RMS and uses the actual output (RMS) as a selling point and not the distortion figure of 'PEAK' wattage...A 10 watt RMS car stereo can "peak" at 100 or more watts but it is unusable distorted noise...Certainly not even "most" and definately not "all" manufactuers "advertise "Peak" with amps...Chinese crap but thats about all...
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post #99 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 05:33 PM
 
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Just as examples:

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/300-752s.pdf

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/300-806.pdf

Please show me where "Peak" wattage is advertised in the spec sheets...Note that the first one is a BASH sub amp...
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post #100 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 06:48 PM
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I won't debate it with you, but peak and rms are all over the place in subwoofer spec sheets, whether it is a expensive product, or not as expensive.

Not to rude, but why to you come into this sub thread and post about this and that feature being inferior? If you don't like certain aspects of this sub, that's your prerogative. Have you heard this sub yet? Some people can't afford the $400 and up sub. This sub satisfies them for it's price point, and their setup.

I think you would be better off posting in the higher end sub threads if you don't like the features of decent lower end subs.

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post #101 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 07:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

I won't debate it with you, but peak and rms are all over the place in subwoofer spec sheets, whether it is a expensive product, or not as expensive.

Thats just it...You can't debate something when you have no facts to back your ludicrous claims up...SVS...ED...AV123...tSc & even Dayton subs DO NOT list "Peak" because "Peak" is misleading...This is true for your precious Yamaha amp...Pioneer...DENON...Onkyo...and yes even Sony knows better than to mislead consumers by stating "Peak" numbers...Aiwa...Sanyo...Goldstar...None of these list "Peak" numbers because "Peak" numbers are meaningless...unless you are trying to scam a buyer by making them think they are getting more for their money than they really are...You would be hard pressed to find subwoofer spec sheets that list "Peak" because it is pointless...

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Originally Posted by tingham View Post

Not to rude, but why to you come into this sub thread and post about this and that feature being inferior? If you don't like certain aspects of this sub, that's your prerogative. Have you heard this sub yet? Some people can't afford the $400 and up sub. This sub satisfies them for it's price point, and their setup.

Lets try this again...This time try to comprehend what I wrote:
Quote:


I wouldn't buy one of those subs...Just on the principle that Bic is trying to pull the wool over the consumers eyes by putting in large print the 'peak' power and the RMS power smaller and after that...And at "peak" that power rating will be nothing but distortion...

Yes...I have heard this sub...I believe in saying it like it is and for the price there are better out there...But I wasn't saying that...I said I wouldn't buy it...As a matter of fact a DAYTON sub from Parts Express will sound just as good...if not better...for a lower price...And you won't be getting smoke blown up your azz with BS numbers...I may not be able to help the people that already bought one of these subs but I sure as hell can help people looking by letting them make an INFORMED DECISION...I am actually amazed that someone such as yourself would try to halt the passing on of information and in fact defending bad info with additional FUD...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

I think you would be better off posting in the higher end sub threads if you don't like the features of decent lower end subs.

Thanks for looking out for my well being but I am just fine right here...There ARE decent lower cost subs as I have already pointed out...My sub is a DIY that cost less than $300...But that doesn't mean it won't blow the Bic away in price and sound quality AND power...No...I think I am fine right here...Thanks anyway...
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post #102 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 09:46 PM
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Man, I wish I had a big enough wallet like these E-ballas on here. Thank god I moved out of my parents house and still had enough money to piece together a surround sound system and build a house instead of posting how other people's systems just blow balls.
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post #103 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 09:51 PM
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Splicer,

I agree with you that peak power ratings are pretty worthless, but I disagree that Bic (and others) are shady companies for listing them. If they ONLY listed the peak power ratings, then yeah, that would be misleading, but anyone who is shopping around online for a Bic sub probably knows the difference between RMS and peak power. Furthermore, the Bic H-100 (which the F12 is replacing) is well known and respected sub which has gotten higher ratings than the Dayton in every review and testimonial you can find online, so your opinion kinda falls flat (though you are certainly entitled to have one). Not saying your opinion is worth any less than someone else's, sound is certainly subjective, but if you think the Daytons sound better than the Bics, you're certainly swimming against the current.

I think you're spot on that the DIY route could be the best bang for your buck overall- but not the route that will be best (or even possible) for everyone. I've built a few sub enclosures in my day (car audio), so I know the challenges as well as the benefits of a homemade box. My skills were good enough for something that was hidden in the trunk of a car, but for a piece of home theater equipment that's going to sit in my living room I would want a product with a little more craftmanship

PS: Klipsch and JBL also list RMS, as well as peak power ratings on their speakers.

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post #104 of 2839 Old 03-16-2009, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

As a matter of fact a DAYTON sub from Parts Express will sound just as good...if not better...for a lower price

Going to have to disagree with you on that one if the F12 is anything like the H-100 which it should be. When I did my first upgrade from my HTIB sub I ordered the Dayton Sub 12 inch. I worked with it for weeks trying to tweek it. I tried everything I could think of and was advised to do, finally I ordered the H-100 to compare before my trial period was up and as soon as I hooked the bic up huge differnce, sound quality was noticeably better, after doing more comparisons just to be sure the Dayton went back.
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post #105 of 2839 Old 03-17-2009, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Thats just it...You can't debate something when you have no facts to back your ludicrous claims up...SVS...ED...AV123...tSc & even Dayton subs DO NOT list "Peak" because "Peak" is misleading...This is true for your precious Yamaha amp...Pioneer...DENON...Onkyo...and yes even Sony knows better than to mislead consumers by stating "Peak" numbers...Aiwa...Sanyo...Goldstar...None of these list "Peak" numbers because "Peak" numbers are meaningless...unless you are trying to scam a buyer by making them think they are getting more for their money than they really are...You would be hard pressed to find subwoofer spec sheets that list "Peak" because it is pointless...

I will revise my post and state that alot of manufacturers, rather than most, quote peak/dynamic specs. I'll admit that.. but just off the top of my head in my research, there is Polk, Klipsch, Premier Acoustic, and Bic, that state peak/dynamic specs throughout their lineup. So I would have to disagree with you that no one states those specs. I could go on and on with manufacturers that do, and you in turn, could go on with manufacturers that don't. They all state RMS also, so anyone who is doing there homework should know what those specs mean. Bic's not misleading anyone. It clearly states "peak" and "rms" stats on the box. And those specs are in the same size lettering on the box. If bic is trying to pull a fast one on the consumer like you state, than all those other manufacturers might be trying to also? Are they all trying to mislead us?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Lets try this again...This time try to comprehend what I wrote:

Yes...I have heard this sub...I believe in saying it like it is and for the price there are better out there...But I wasn't saying that...I said I wouldn't buy it...As a matter of fact a DAYTON sub from Parts Express will sound just as good...if not better...for a lower price...And you won't be getting smoke blown up your azz with BS numbers...I may not be able to help the people that already bought one of these subs but I sure as hell can help people looking by letting them make an INFORMED DECISION...I am actually amazed that someone such as yourself would try to halt the passing on of information and in fact defending bad info with additional FUD...

So you have heard it..was it in your own setup? I'm not passing fud..check the facts on those manufacturers websites that I listed..you'll see. If you can find a better sounding and built sub than the F12 for $196.00 shipped, than more power to you...I could not.

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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Thanks for looking out for my well being but I am just fine right here...There ARE decent lower cost subs as I have already pointed out...My sub is a DIY that cost less than $300...But that doesn't mean it won't blow the Bic away in price and sound quality AND power...No...I think I am fine right here...Thanks anyway...

Well that might be fine and dandy for you, but what about the person that doesn't have the ability to DIY..what are they supposed to do? That's ok, you can keep posting here and tell members what sub is better for the price. They can decide for themslves if this sub is for them by reading the posts in this thread. I'm sure they will notice that your posts are not the majority opinion.

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post #106 of 2839 Old 03-17-2009, 08:06 PM
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The F12 is a great sub for under 200! I got mine for the same price as the 120 shipped. Things the F12 has that Dayton doesn't includes a 5 year warranty (1 for Dayton) and magnetic shielding. Specs are almost identical beyond that.

A hundred dollars more and homemade are not the same class IMHO.

I do agree that the peak-wattage can be deceiving but they list the RMS too.
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post #107 of 2839 Old 03-17-2009, 08:36 PM
 
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Glad you like your new sub...Thats half the battle...

What you guys don't seem to understand (or refuse to admit) is that by listing the Peak FIRST and the RMS later (several features later) that they are attemptingto scam by getting peoples attention...Are you going to say you have a 150watt sub or a 475watt sub??? Chances are...regardless of what you admit to here on the forum...but in real life situations...you will say the latter because it sounds better and makes it appear you have high dollar equipment for under $200...

As for the warranty I have had the 120 for a few years now and never had reason to use a warranty...I hope you have the same luck with yours...

Also my DIY DID NOT cost $100 more...I said it cost LESS than $300 to build and IIRC the cost (shipping for parts included) was right around $229...Just have to be patient...I wasn't and ended up with the 120 as a hold me over...My buddy just got the F12 and wants to trade me for my 120...

Quote:


Price (MSRP): $449/Each
Design: Front-firing 12" 475-watt peak powered subwoofer
Frequency Response: 25Hz - 200Hz
Sensitivity: 90dB
Drivers: 12" Injection molded woofer with heavy duty surround
Magnetic Shielding: YES
Gold-Plated Terminals:YES
Recommended Power: Built-in Amplifier Power: 475 watts Dynamic Peak, 150 watts RMS continuous
Impedance: 8 ohms
Dimensions: 17"H x 14 3/4"W x 17 1/4"D
Weight: 42 Pounds Each
Warranty: 5 Years Parts & Labor

No matter what you guys say trying to defend them...they list the Peak wattage twice and the actual RMS way down in the list...They are attempting to sell using a BS number...

Also I never said it wasn't a decent sub for the money...For the price I might consider it (but I have heard one and did not like what I heard) but for the blatent BS advertising I wouldn't...


Quote:
Originally Posted by tingham View Post

but just off the top of my head in my research, there is Polk, Klipsch, Premier Acoustic, and Bic, that state peak/dynamic specs throughout their lineup.

Polk does not make an amplifier...Neither does Klipsch...So you stating those brands state peak HANDLING POWER is not the same as peak OUTPUT POWER that the F12 claims...

Give it up and admit it...You KNOW I'm right but you just don't want to be wrong...
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post #108 of 2839 Old 03-17-2009, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Glad you like your new sub...Thats half the battle...

What you guys don't seem to understand (or refuse to admit) is that by listing the Peak FIRST and the RMS later (several features later) that they are attemptingto scam by getting peoples attention.

Give it up and admit it...You KNOW I'm right but you just don't want to be wrong...

No ones misunderstanding or saying it's right or trying to defend them for listing peak power, especially when RMS is also listed. I really don't see the issue. It's done by many companies, especially in this price range. Right or wrong that's just the way it is and that's what they do. Cadence comes to mind and no I'm not picking on Cadence which is a great company with great products, that's just an example. Sony also does it along with others in receivers which have been measured time and time again to be below spec and they don't even list an alternate. It's not uncommon practice, right or wrong.

Whether it's an attempt to scam, as you say, or not it happens with products in every industry. One of the first rules of buying or signing anything is read the fine print and that's become a rule for a reason. We may wish it didn't have to be that way but it is and to single one company out for doing a common practice which doesn't effect the quality of the product in any way shape or form seems pointless, attack the industry or everyone in the industry doing it.
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post #109 of 2839 Old 03-18-2009, 08:06 AM
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Well said.

150 watts will be plenty for me - the thing looks the bomb too.

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post #110 of 2839 Old 03-18-2009, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Glad you like your new sub...Thats half the battle...

What you guys don't seem to understand (or refuse to admit) is that by listing the Peak FIRST and the RMS later (several features later) that they are attemptingto scam by getting peoples attention...Are you going to say you have a 150watt sub or a 475watt sub??? Chances are...regardless of what you admit to here on the forum...but in real life situations...you will say the latter because it sounds better and makes it appear you have high dollar equipment for under $200...

As for the warranty I have had the 120 for a few years now and never had reason to use a warranty...I hope you have the same luck with yours...

Also my DIY DID NOT cost $100 more...I said it cost LESS than $300 to build and IIRC the cost (shipping for parts included) was right around $229...Just have to be patient...I wasn't and ended up with the 120 as a hold me over...My buddy just got the F12 and wants to trade me for my 120...



No matter what you guys say trying to defend them...they list the Peak wattage twice and the actual RMS way down in the list...They are attempting to sell using a BS number...

Also I never said it wasn't a decent sub for the money...For the price I might consider it (but I have heard one and did not like what I heard) but for the blatent BS advertising I wouldn't...




Polk does not make an amplifier...Neither does Klipsch...So you stating those brands state peak HANDLING POWER is not the same as peak OUTPUT POWER that the F12 claims...

Give it up and admit it...You KNOW I'm right but you just don't want to be wrong...

I'm not trying to fan the flames here, but I don't at all see what's wrong with clearly listing dynamic peak power. For many people, audiophile or just casual listener, the dynamic peak power is an important number (not BS). The peak power affects how much you feel during extremely loud and deep parts of movie soundtracks, and during peaks in music. It's important to factor this in along with the power handling and output of the amps and speakers on the other channels in your setup. So from that standpoint, it's a fairly important measure of subjective loudness that helps you choose a sub that won't strain to keep up with your other speakers. If BIC had not listed the RMS at all, that could be considered shady, but this isn't the case.

As for stating peak power instead of RMS in pissing contests with friends, some people will do that to make themselves feel better. But the fact of the matter is that when you say "I have a 475 watt sub" anyone who knows even a little about audio gear will simply ask "Is that peak or RMS?". Those are the type of people who will get to the fifth line on the spec sheet, and I'd venture a guess that people who won't read even that far are probably closer to Best Buy's target market than BIC's.

I'm really not defending the industry on this, but I think you're blowing the issue of emphasizing features way out of proportion here.
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post #111 of 2839 Old 03-18-2009, 10:22 AM
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If you read the manual..it states if the receiver type toggle switch is set to the Digital Receiver 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 position, the Crossover Frequency control does not affect the signal. So I am assuming it disables the crossover frequency knob?

A month old, but just in case any new owners are confused....

Tingham's interpretation is correct, on the BIC subs the "PRO LOGIC / DD 5.1,6.1,7.1" switch is the CROSSOVER DEFEAT switch. It works the same way on the H-100, and on the VK-12 (although on the VK-12 it is labeled "IN/OUT").

PRO LOGIC = you have an older receiver without bass management, so the subwoofer's internal crossover will be used

DOLBY DIGITAL = you have a modern digital receiver which will handle the bass management, so the sub's internal crossover is DEFEATED.

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post #112 of 2839 Old 03-19-2009, 02:46 PM
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Take your friends offer and trade him fast!
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post #113 of 2839 Old 03-19-2009, 03:09 PM
 
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Take your friends offer and trade him fast!

I'd probably trade him if he threw in $200.00...
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post #114 of 2839 Old 03-19-2009, 06:39 PM
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lol
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post #115 of 2839 Old 03-19-2009, 07:41 PM
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I would also, then you could order another at no cost and run duals or sell the traded one and move up a level.
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post #116 of 2839 Old 03-24-2009, 05:06 PM
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Any thoughts on how the F12 would compare to the Chrysalis by Velodyne Starfire 12?
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post #117 of 2839 Old 03-29-2009, 09:04 PM
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Some people like to hear themselves, and see themselves, talk. Splicer is one of those I think.
RMS is a measure of power 'Root-Mean Square.' With subwoofers the RMS is hardly a measure of the speakers potential, that is why ALL manufacturers also indicate the peak value. It is simply a measure of how much power can be generated or handled for a very short period of time and that is what subwoofers do! One high quality manu. says it like this,
"the Peak Dynamic Power is measured by recording the highest peak-to-centre voltage produced by the power amplifier with its limiters disabled, across the output of a resistive load equal to minimum impedance of the transducer, using a 50Hz sine wave burst,"
and it goes on to say this is a more accurate measure of an active subs capabilities. A regular 5.1 receiver/amplifier is putting out power across a wide range for extended periods of time, 100% of the time it's turned on. A subwoofer is only asked to provide short bursts across a very narrow range.
I purchased the BIC F12 and look forward to receiving it. It was recommended to me by a friend who owns a HI-FI store and is working to get the rights to sell BIC here in the GTA. He also sells Paradigm, B&W, Krell, LIN, PMC and numerous other VERY high end manu's.
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post #118 of 2839 Old 03-29-2009, 09:21 PM
 
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Well that certainly is a biased reply if I ever read one...Love your screen name...

Read the thread...I have proven...and others conceded...that not ALL manufactuers indicate peak value...That is simply an uninformed untruth either fed to you by your "friend" or that you just made up...

Enjoy your sub...
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post #119 of 2839 Old 03-30-2009, 07:13 AM
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Didn't plan on joining this forum but after reading your comments last night Splicer I felt the need, screen name was given no thought.
Here is a bit from JL Audio, one of the best sub makers around,
Fathom F113 'Amp Power 2500 watts RMS short-term.' Short-term meaning peak!
Paradigm, Reference series Signature 25, '7500 watts Dynamic Peak / 3000 watts RMS Sustained.'
German-Physiks, maker of the most expensive speakers in the world,
"Power Handling Nominal 60W (160 - 21,500Hz) Short-term 100W (160 - 21,500Hz)" Short term meaning peak.
Velodyne, all they do is subs, "DEQ15R-Amplifier:ClassD 1500 watts Dynamic 750 watts RMS Power."
ps; SVSound uses BASH designed amps just like BIC does!
So you see Splice, no manufacturer is trying to pull any wool, they all use it, even BASH who only makes the amp for them use it on their material. If we were talking about amplifiers for a receiver then you would be quite justified in your comments but in the subwoofer world you are not. I have researched this subject a great deal, spoken with Jerry VanderMarel, owner of Paradigm and his marketing manager Mark Aling, gone to great depths to learn before I bought. I'd love to get the Reference Signature from Pardigm but the $ aren't there, the BIC F12 is a great option, the BIC V12 is an even better, bullet proof, 8 year warranted BASH 1000 watt "PEAK" option for those wanting to spend $400-$500.
Take care all, and remember, someone will always want to rain on your parade!
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post #120 of 2839 Old 03-30-2009, 07:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

screen name was given no thought.

As the rest of your posts were given no thought...Read the thread...While others may say "short term"...that isentirely different from "peak"...Damn good thing you are here to tell everyone what something 'means' even though different meaning words were used...

The BIG difference in the brands you mentioned is that they DO NOT use "peak" or "sustained" as a focal selling point...While those terms and numbers may be included in their specifications...the products are sold on their 'contiuous' or 'RMS' capablities...Bic makes some affodable equipment for those on a budget and I do not fault them for doing that...I do not fault Bic for the fact that there are better out there than Bic for the same money...I DO fault blatent false advertising or at the very least prominant meaningless advertising to sell their products...When one has to exploit that kind of drival to sell a product...that should send up red flags immediately about what is being marketed and the way that marketing is taking place...That Bash amp may "peak" at the stated wattage but lord help the driver which is certain to be damaged if the "peak" is attained often...

Sorry to have rained on your parade...
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