BIC America F12 sub anyone ? - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 2862 Old 03-30-2009, 08:26 AM
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from BIC's web site,
F12 "Recommended Power: Built-in Amplifier Power: 475 watts Dynamic Peak, 150 watts RMS continuous"
Exactly the same as some of the worlds greatest and most expensive brands. Nothing false about it! Maybe some seller sites have not included the RMS part but BIC certainly has.
I erred on my last thread, it's the VK-12 not V12 and here is the info from the BIC site for that one,
"Recommended Power: Built in BASH Amplifier: Power 250-watt RMS, 1000 watt peak."
BTW Splinter, HSU Research disigns the drivers for the BIC subs and they are known as one of the greatest names in drivers. Why would BIC give a 5 year everything warranty unless they were pretty sure it wouldn't fold under pressure?
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post #122 of 2862 Old 03-30-2009, 08:55 AM
 
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All the info has been presented in this thread...It is up to you how to apply that information...If you want to keep the blinders on it is no skin off my nose...Should you choose to remove the blinders it will be music to your ears...

As I said before...Enjoy your new sub...
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post #123 of 2862 Old 03-30-2009, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Well that certainly is a biased reply if I ever read one...Love your screen name...

Read the thread...I have proven...and others conceded...that not ALL manufactuers indicate peak value...That is simply an uninformed untruth either fed to you by your "friend" or that you just made up...

Enjoy your sub...


I think the only thing you have "proven" is that you are an individual who thinks more highly of his opinion that he ought

It's not a true home theater unless you have a projector. Oh, and popcorn.
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post #124 of 2862 Old 03-30-2009, 10:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SpartacusMagnus View Post

I think the only thing you have "proven" is that you are an individual who thinks more highly of his opinion that he ought

I might agree with you if it were opinion instead of fact that I was stating...
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post #125 of 2862 Old 03-30-2009, 11:29 AM
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Let me help you differentiate. The facts are:

1. Many companies in this industry advertise peak along with RMS ratings
2. BIC's website lists the peak first and the RMS later on some of their models

Your opinions are:

1. BIC's marketing is misleading
2. Peak ratings are useless numbers
3. There are better subs for the money

It's not a true home theater unless you have a projector. Oh, and popcorn.
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post #126 of 2862 Old 03-30-2009, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartacusMagnus View Post

Let me help you differentiate. The facts are:

1. Many companies in this industry advertise peak along with RMS ratings
2. BIC's website lists the peak first and the RMS later on some of their models

Your opinions are:

1. BIC's marketing is misleading
2. Peak ratings are useless numbers
3. There are better subs for the money

And add to it all, these subs just don't get down low enough. Save up for a quality sub and not buy the cheapo ones.

Bill

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post #127 of 2862 Old 03-30-2009, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

And add to it all, these subs just don't get down low enough. Save up for a quality sub and not buy the cheapo ones.

Bill

Eh, 25Hz isn't bad. Even the low end Hsu subs are rated in that range. If you need a lower frequency response (for those who use their systems mainly for music, this isn't necessary), your best bet is the eD rated at 18Hz, but that's $350. Other than that, you're jumping up to the $500 range of subs just to get a few Hz. For most, a 250% price increase for a 3-5% lower frequency response isn't worth it.

It's not a true home theater unless you have a projector. Oh, and popcorn.
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post #128 of 2862 Old 03-31-2009, 07:01 AM
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OH he's right. Most amps are rated 20-20,000hz, your speakers should cover the spectrum...
The finest most peak condition human ear can hear 20-20,000hz, 9 out of 10 human ears get only 40 or 50 to 16,000 or 17,000 of that range. As we age that gets worse, the average 60 year old man can't hear past 14,000hz but women have better hearing so they can hear stuff we can't, funny, they don't care about sound as much as men. If like me you cranked the volume alot and went to concerts then you have lost some range. Had a job in a factory or loud surroundings, sorry. A sub that goes to 25hz isn't going to miss anything that most of us could hear anyway. Anything below 20hz is not heard so much as it is felt and some subs advertise down to 18hz and even lower, imperceptible to anything but a machine or your poor dog.

Good things about the BIC F12 that sold me,
-decent power, both peak and RMS, see how I put the peak first, how misleading... BASH designed
-sheilded, important as it's close to my LCD.
-12" Hsu designed driver
-5 year everything warranty
-great price
-LFE and other connectivity options, numerous setting options as well.
What more could you want for $170, which btw retails here in Canada for about $450 which is more like $525US, and the guy has no stock, sells them like crazy.
Many people on this forum seem to feel that if you don't buy their brand of sub or you don't spend a certain amount you must be crazy. There are a ton of great subs out there, few at this price point but there are a few. After reading threads and forums, do your research by reading audio reviews and anything else you can get your eyes/hands on and make a smart decision for you and your system.
Good luck and good listening!
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post #129 of 2862 Old 04-01-2009, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

As the rest of your posts were given no thought...Read the thread...While others may say "short term"...that isentirely different from "peak"...Damn good thing you are here to tell everyone what something 'means' even though different meaning words were used...

The BIG difference in the brands you mentioned is that they DO NOT use "peak" or "sustained" as a focal selling point...While those terms and numbers may be included in their specifications...the products are sold on their 'contiuous' or 'RMS' capablities...Bic makes some affodable equipment for those on a budget and I do not fault them for doing that...I do not fault Bic for the fact that there are better out there than Bic for the same money...I DO fault blatent false advertising or at the very least prominant meaningless advertising to sell their products...When one has to exploit that kind of drival to sell a product...that should send up red flags immediately about what is being marketed and the way that marketing is taking place...That Bash amp may "peak" at the stated wattage but lord help the driver which is certain to be damaged if the "peak" is attained often...

Sorry to have rained on your parade...

I to own the F12 and i didn't buy it for the suggested ratings, I bought it because it sounded good for a 183 bucks. And handles everything I need it for without being a bit boomy. In fact I thought I might need 2 of them when I ordered it, but I don't. So anyone thinking about buying one shouldn't let this guy scare you away. For the price you can't go wrong.
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post #130 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 03:36 AM
 
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Well I am glad the sub is working for you...and that you were one of the smart ones not to fall into the marketing trap and expecting a better sub than it is...Unfortunately you are in the minority and Bic knows it...Again...If people read this whole thread they...and you...would see that I am not trying to "scare anyone off from buying this sub" but rather bringing to light the BS marketing they use...It gets into the sub-concious...I never said it was a 'bad' sub...I have only stated there is better for the same price AND that 'I' would not buy one because of the marketing...Its all here in black & white...
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post #131 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Well I am glad the sub is working for you...and that you were one of the smart ones not to fall into the marketing trap and expecting a better sub than it is...Unfortunately you are in the minority and Bic knows it...

Splicer man, get off it. How in the world would you know if this is or is not the minority? There isn't a single post in this entire thread that erroneously states the F12's peak power as its RMS. No one here has "fallen for the marketing" as you say, so where are you pulling your statistics from? All you have done is detract from this thread. If you'd like to actually contribute useful information, rather than just naysaying, post a few makes and models of subs that you feel are better for the price (other than the Dayton which you have already mentioned and most have disagreed with).

It's not a true home theater unless you have a projector. Oh, and popcorn.
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post #132 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 11:41 AM
 
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Pretty easy statistic SpartacusMagnus man...The minority are the posters here...The majority don't seem to care...Please show me where you get your 'facts' that "Noone here has fallen for the marketing"...You have no clue as to the number of lurkers who have found out after the fact that they were dupped...Leave the moderating to the moderators...
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post #133 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 11:44 AM
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this Splicer guy is a real charmer....

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post #134 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 11:51 AM
 
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this Splicer guy is a real charmer....

Thats what my wife says...
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post #135 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 11:52 AM
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post #136 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Please show me where you get your 'facts' that "Noone here has fallen for the marketing"...You have no clue as to the number of lurkers who have found out after the fact that they were dupped...

I said "there isn't a single post in this thread that has erroneously stated peak power as RMS", key word "post". That is where I got my facts. Where did you get yours? Since lurkers by definition don't post and therefore don't leave any data to pull from, using them for statistics doesn't work. Therefore the actual data supports my claim- no one here has been duped. On the flip side, you have nothing more than conjecture and speculation supporting your case. So I ask again, please post something beneficial to this thread.

It's not a true home theater unless you have a projector. Oh, and popcorn.
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post #137 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 01:32 PM
 
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post #138 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 05:17 PM
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Hey Im in the market for a sub. You said theres better subs out there for the same price which ones
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post #139 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 05:39 PM
 
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Ya gotta look around for the deals...They are out there...You may want to look at the Bic...If you have a chance to listen that is even better...My friend ended up trading his sub for another 12" sub and is much happier now...I forget what the brand is...He traded with some guy I don't know...Craigslist has some great deals...Don't be scared...Seek...and ye shall find...
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post #140 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Glad you like your new sub...Thats half the battle...

What you guys don't seem to understand (or refuse to admit) is that by listing the Peak FIRST and the RMS later (several features later) that they are attemptingto scam by getting peoples attention...Are you going to say you have a 150watt sub or a 475watt sub??? Chances are...regardless of what you admit to here on the forum...but in real life situations...you will say the latter because it sounds better and makes it appear you have high dollar equipment for under $200...



Give it up and admit it...You KNOW I'm right but you just don't want to be wrong...

I guess Energy lies too. Look at the specs on their entry level ESW-10 level sub straight from their website!

Don’t just watch and listen to your movies—feel them, too! The ESW-10 subwoofer thumps your chest with 400 booming watts of power. This box really delivers “in your face” bass and effects, which makes it just as great for gaming and music.
Versatile black ash finish
10-inch MPP woofer with Ribbed Elliptical Surround brings music and movie effects to life
Internal amplifier delivers 400 watts of clean power with complete accuracy
The lowdown

The powerful ESW-10 fills any room with big, clear bass; it simply makes any home theater or stereo system better. In fact, it’s ideal partner for our Energy C Series and Take Series speakers.

A built-in amplifier allows this hard-hitter to deliver a whopping 400 watts of RMS power. The ESW-10, with its black ash veneer, matches many of our speaker lines and looks great next to any flat panel display.


When you download the manual, it clearly states 400W peak, 100W RMS.
http://www.energy-speakers.com/images/download/346.aspx

On the higher up s10.3 and ESW-V10 in the overview page they state the RMS power as 200W and 300W respectively, with 800W peak and 1200W peak when you look at the specs page.

Onkyo does that on the HTIB systems too. The 7100 system comes with the Onkyo 606 receiver. As a standalone its 90w/channel, but when the same receiver is in a HTIB system all of a sudden its 130w.

Companies have been doing this for years and it'll never stop.

Afro GT
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post #141 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 06:36 PM
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So does Cadence and others, honestly I don't get this guys gripe other than he has a bone to pick with someone. It's common practice in the industry which has already been stated with references, especially in the budget sub category and it's easy to find what both mean (or doesn't) from sources just about everywhere.

I think he's bent because he found a listing of peak being first. So long as they are both there who cares? Kind of a trivial quibble for something that means absolutely nothing in the overall scheme of things.
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post #142 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 06:55 PM
 
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I just mention something that would prevent ME from buying a product and y'all jump all over it and blow it completely out of proportion...Get over yourselves already...
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post #143 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 07:11 PM
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^^Is this guy related to Flags??
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post #144 of 2862 Old 04-02-2009, 07:45 PM
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^^Is this guy related to Flags??

lol, that made me laugh, wonder whatever happened to him? NO WAIT!!! Let's don't.
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post #145 of 2862 Old 04-03-2009, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

OH he's right. Most amps are rated 20-20,000hz, your speakers should cover the spectrum...
The finest most peak condition human ear can hear 20-20,000hz, 9 out of 10 human ears get only 40 or 50 to 16,000 or 17,000 of that range. As we age that gets worse, the average 60 year old man can't hear past 14,000hz but women have better hearing so they can hear stuff we can't, funny, they don't care about sound as much as men. If like me you cranked the volume alot and went to concerts then you have lost some range. Had a job in a factory or loud surroundings, sorry. A sub that goes to 25hz isn't going to miss anything that most of us could hear anyway. Anything below 20hz is not heard so much as it is felt and some subs advertise down to 18hz and even lower, imperceptible to anything but a machine or your poor dog.

Good things about the BIC F12 that sold me,
-decent power, both peak and RMS, see how I put the peak first, how misleading... BASH designed
-sheilded, important as it's close to my LCD.
-12" Hsu designed driver
-5 year everything warranty
-great price
-LFE and other connectivity options, numerous setting options as well.
What more could you want for $170, which btw retails here in Canada for about $450 which is more like $525US, and the guy has no stock, sells them like crazy.
Many people on this forum seem to feel that if you don't buy their brand of sub or you don't spend a certain amount you must be crazy. There are a ton of great subs out there, few at this price point but there are a few. After reading threads and forums, do your research by reading audio reviews and anything else you can get your eyes/hands on and make a smart decision for you and your system.
Good luck and good listening!

It's right HERE for almost $100 less cdn.
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post #146 of 2862 Old 04-03-2009, 07:22 AM
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Thats the same store that had it on their site for $459 just last week! He said he had no stock, sold out. He must have got another shipment much cheaper or he saw it on line for $200. Still, much more than I paid!
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post #147 of 2862 Old 04-03-2009, 08:08 AM
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F12 being shipped VIA UPS, left Oklahoma at 9:40 this morning, says it will be delivered April 9th. Did they put it on the back of a turtle? I could drive there and back by Monday and have time to meet a couple of babes in between.
Don't forget Danielson, add 13% tax to that price, plus shipping unless you want to drive to Oakville to pick it up, still going to be way more than it should be. Might as well drive to my buddies store and pick up the Paradigm DSP-3100, I've heard it and it's sweet, $450C + tax.
600 watts Dynamic Peak / 200 watts RMS Sustained
ceramic / ferrite magnet, 50-mm (2 in) 4-layer voice-coil, 255-mm (10 in) CAP Carbon / Aramid-Fiber Polypropylene Cone, AVS die-cast heatsink chassis
http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/...-5-24.paradigm
LL
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post #148 of 2862 Old 04-03-2009, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

F12 being shipped VIA UPS, left Oklahoma at 9:40 this morning, says it will be delivered April 9th. Did they put it on the back of a turtle? I could drive there and back by Monday and have time to meet a couple of babes in between.
Don't forget Danielson, add 13% tax to that price, plus shipping unless you want to drive to Oakville to pick it up, still going to be way more than it should be. Might as well drive to my buddies store and pick up the Paradigm DSP-3100, I've heard it and it's sweet, $450C + tax.
600 watts Dynamic Peak / 200 watts RMS Sustained
ceramic / ferrite magnet, 50-mm (2 in) 4-layer voice-coil, 255-mm (10 in) CAP Carbon / Aramid-Fiber Polypropylene Cone, AVS die-cast heatsink chassis
http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/...-5-24.paradigm

where did you get it from?
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post #149 of 2862 Old 04-03-2009, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post

F12 being shipped VIA UPS, left Oklahoma at 9:40 this morning, says it will be delivered April 9th. Did they put it on the back of a turtle? I could drive there and back by Monday and have time to meet a couple of babes in between.
Don't forget Danielson, add 13% tax to that price, plus shipping unless you want to drive to Oakville to pick it up, still going to be way more than it should be. Might as well drive to my buddies store and pick up the Paradigm DSP-3100, I've heard it and it's sweet, $450C + tax.
600 watts Dynamic Peak / 200 watts RMS Sustained
ceramic / ferrite magnet, 50-mm (2 in) 4-layer voice-coil, 255-mm (10 in) CAP™ Carbon / Aramid-Fiber Polypropylene Cone, AVS™ die-cast heatsink chassis
http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/...-5-24.paradigm

Wrong, this $364 price includes shipping

I like the DSP series but I would definitely spring for the 3200 if I went that way, big power increase and very beautiful compared to it's little brother. The F12 however is almost $100 less than the 3100 and very equal for the mostpart in performance.
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post #150 of 2862 Old 04-04-2009, 06:44 PM
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I got the BIC F12 off EBay from http://www.twistedsisterselectronics.com/main.sc
I guess it would be $364 + 13% tax then, you're still over $400 and I'll be much less than that after all fee's and taxes, unless UPS decides to rape me. The seller gave it a declared value of $15 though so the broker fee should be resonable. I'll let ya'all know when I get it, hopefully Thursday.
Yes the 3200 is a bit bigger and better, hell go for it and get the 3400, 14" driver, 900 peak and 300 sustained. I heard this one in my freinds store as well, really large room with 2 B&W's, Holy S#@T did it rock, as loud as front row of a U2 concert but crystal clear, increadible. I only hope the F12 is as good as the 3100. Paradigm is known for top quality build and they produce all their own parts.
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