BIC America F12 sub anyone ? - Page 66 - AVS Forum
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post #1951 of 2839 Old 02-20-2011, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ZJbrandon View Post

I just moved up from a 12 year old Infinity BU-120 to an F12,
partly because I was afraid the infinity was going to to die,
and partly because of the good reviews of this budget sub gave me upgrade fever!

I have very little time with it so far, and I just discovered I have the firmware bug in my Denon 789, causing me to bring down the sub channel, post Audyssey calib. but I am quite happy with the purchase so far.

The corner foam pieces from shipping are making a good temporary decoupling solution, as well. It helps alot as we are on laminate hardwood over framed wood floor. Someday an Auralex will replace that.

I got it from shopblt, for 181.00 and although the box was pretty beaten up it survived with some very minor scratches in the back top corner. Not a biggie, they are very minor.

good budget sub, works well for us in our little townhome. my neighbors already hated me with the infinity, so what did i do? got a better sub!

cheers!

That's good to hear.
Congrats on the new sub, those neighbors are really going to love you now.

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Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

Hmmm... now understand why I expect more from a sub.

Sure thing buddy, I listen to almost every type of music out there. Going from Classical to Country to Techno to Hard Rock/Metal to Blues to Jazz and even some Rap.
Keep being ignorant Rob, no one here cares about what you expect from a sub.

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Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

Now you are just being a douche bag.

When you start going beyond debating the qualities of a particular speaker, sub, receiver, etc and you start to imply that you expect more because only neanderthals would listen to metal, rock, or blues, therefore you must be superior as a person with better taste.......that, my friend, makes you a total and complete douche bag.

Just leave this forum and take you superior attitude with you.

Amen!
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post #1952 of 2839 Old 02-20-2011, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

The topic was "can you buy a musical sub for $200" and I provided an example. What the F12 has to do with it is that the F12 is NOT a musical sub. Your example of TWO F12's does NOT make it a $200 solution. I don't know what it is you have against me Tex, that you feel you have to single me out... I have never said anything against you.

Have you ever had two F-12's ? I've asked you that before, I GUESS THE ANSWER IS NO. I also agreed with you that it was not great musically, but once I added a second one the subs sounded great, musically also. Have you tried 2 ??? IF NOT LEAVE THIS THREAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #1953 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 05:59 AM
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So now we need TWO F12's. I'd take that $400 and buy an STF2.

Polk RtiA9's, Denon 3312ci & Emo XPA-5 amp, CsiA6, RtiA7 surrounds, FxiA6 rears, twin Klipsch Synergy Sub-12's, DSW660 & Lsi9's upstairs
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post #1954 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishpoke View Post

Piano I have the v1220 and yamaha 367... I had/have that issue too. It seems to get the volume levels correct, you have to push the sub to +10db in the receiver... once I did that I could get good bass (like you'd expect at +-0db)... possibly a voltage mismatch between the sub and receiver? Don't have another sub to test with but I ruled it down to the sub or the receiver.

Nothing is setup wrong before anyone mentions it.

Thanks Fishpoke, this "solved" my problem. I am currently running the F-12 at +9.0/10.0 Db out of my receiver and the volume knob of the sub is at 5/8. I don't know why this is necessary, but the sub is functioning correctly. It sounds fantastic for movies and gaming. It has trouble keeping up while listening to music.

I have put about 10 hours on the F-12 this weekend, testing several placements around my room. I settled on the corner to the right of my TV.

I am still in the process of building my system, so I currently only have two Energy CF-70s as my front left and right. The F-12 could use some help keeping up with them. I am already thinking of buying a second. My room is medium sized at 14' x 16'.
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post #1955 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Pianoman178 View Post

Thanks Fishpoke, this "solved" my problem. I am currently running the F-12 at +9.0/10.0 Db out of my receiver and the volume knob of the sub is at 5/8. I don't know why this is necessary, but the sub is functioning correctly. It sounds fantastic for movies and gaming. It has trouble keeping up while listening to music.

I have put about 10 hours on the F-12 this weekend, testing several placements around my room. I settled on the corner to the right of my TV.

I am still in the process of building my system, so I currently only have two Energy CF-70s as my front left and right. The F-12 could use some help keeping up with them. I am already thinking of buying a second. My room is medium sized at 14' x 16'.

This is what I have come to realize also. I have a Yamaha 765 and if I turn the volume knob on the f12 to 4 or 5 or 11 or 12 oclock then I have to turn it up on the receiver almost to the max (9.5 or 10dB). But now I am really pushing the receiver turning it up that high (at least that is my understanding). So I turned the receiver level to 4.5dB and turned the volume knob on the f12 to 7 or 2 oclock.
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post #1956 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by longball07 View Post

This is what I have come to realize also. I have a Yamaha 765 and if I turn the volume knob on the f12 to 4 or 5 or 11 or 12 oclock then I have to turn it up on the receiver almost to the max (9.5 or 10dB). But now I am really pushing the receiver turning it up that high (at least that is my understanding). So I turned the receiver level to 4.5dB and turned the volume knob on the f12 to 7 or 2 oclock.

So is this just a Yamaha thing? Why is the subwoofer signal from Yamaha receivers so weak?
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post #1957 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 07:48 AM
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I have found that if I bump up the level on the sub, Audyssey just bumps the level back down when I run it. My dual f12's I have to run on 2.5 and 3 to get a level of -4. It seems to be perfect for movies with LFE. For music I bump the level up to 0 and it works pretty good depending on the source. I had a Yamaha before and I wasn't a big fan of YPAO. It was ok but I definitely get better results with Audyssey. But, as they say, auto setup is just a good starting point. You need to tweak things where it sounds good to you. It just seems odd that you have to run the sub level up that high. I ran mine on 12 oclock by mistake when I was moving the sub around the room trying to find the right spot and it almost blew me out of the room. That was with the receiver on 0. I know each manufacturer is different, but that's just how I run things on my Denon. Hope you guys enjoy the sub. Experimentation is half the fun, right?

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post #1958 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 11:22 AM
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I've never had a Yamaha, so I'm sorry I can't really give any input into why someone would need to put the sub level so high. Have you guys looked at the Yamaha's threads in the receiver forums about a problem like this?

I guess as long as you put it at a level where you guys are happy with how your F12 sounds..thats all that really matters.

Pianoman, I would look at getting a CC-10 to match up with your CF-70s. That way you atleast have a nice 3.1 setup. A CC-5 would also work, but a CC-10 would probably be a better match for your larger CF-70s. Just my opinion.
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post #1959 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texraider View Post

I've never had a Yamaha, so I'm sorry I can't really give any input into why someone would need to put the sub level so high. Have you guys looked at the Yamaha's threads in the receiver forums about a problem like this?

I guess as long as you put it at a level where you guys are happy with how your F12 sounds..thats all that really matters.

Pianoman, I would look at getting a CC-10 to match up with your CF-70s. That way you atleast have a nice 3.1 setup. A CC-5 would also work, but a CC-10 would probably be a better match for your larger CF-70s. Just my opinion.

I have read several pages of the various Yamaha threads in the Receiver/Amp section of the forum. I didn't see anything that depicted the problem we are having.

Like I said above, the sub sounds great. It is definitely receiving the correct signal, it is just seems weaker than it should be. I'm glad I'm not the only one having this problem. Sorry to side-track this F-12 thread with my receiver problems
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post #1960 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 11:40 AM
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Turning on Adaptive DRC helps bring out the bass btw.

I didn't like the sound of the v1220 for music intially (it was a bit sloppy)... I've had it for a bit now and it's keeping up with music quite well.
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post #1961 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianoman178 View Post

I have read several pages of the various Yamaha threads in the Receiver/Amp section of the forum. I didn't see anything that depicted the problem we are having.

Like I said above, the sub sounds great. It is definitely receiving the correct signal, it is just seems weaker than it should be. I'm glad I'm not the only one having this problem. Sorry to side-track this F-12 thread with my receiver problems

Don't be sorry at all bud, no need to apologize.. it looks like some of the Yamaha/F12 owners seem to have a legit problem with the weak sub levels on some of the Yami receivers. Hopefully someone on here knows a better solution for you guys.

I've had my F12s with Pio and Onkyo receivers and I haven't had a problem like you guys are talking about. Just for reference, my Pio SC-35 recently set my sub at -5dB and I had it at #3 on the volume when I calibrated it. I moved up my subs to -3dB and put it on the #4 or #5 volume just for personal preference and they pound the hell out of my HT with those settings.
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post #1962 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 07:17 PM
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And am not sure this is the right place for this... I'm going to buy one of these, It will be for my first HT system, I listen to very little music. From the arguments I've read here, both sides seem to agree that for HT these subs are good for less than 200.

My questions -

1. How do you hook up two of these to a receiver? Are there two ports for it?
2. I was also reading in the front port/downward port debate, and wondered why you couldn't get one of each, would that solve the "problem"?
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post #1963 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 07:34 PM
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Good reading here: http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...-bass/two-subs

Polk RtiA9's, Denon 3312ci & Emo XPA-5 amp, CsiA6, RtiA7 surrounds, FxiA6 rears, twin Klipsch Synergy Sub-12's, DSW660 & Lsi9's upstairs
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post #1964 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Nickthegrip View Post

And am not sure this is the right place for this... I'm going to buy one of these, It will be for my first HT system, I listen to very little music. From the arguments I've read here, both sides seem to agree that for HT these subs are good for less than 200.

My questions -

1. How do you hook up two of these to a receiver? Are there two ports for it?
2. I was also reading in the front port/downward port debate, and wondered why you couldn't get one of each, would that solve the "problem"?

Usually you can just use a Y-Splitter to connect both subs to a single subwoofer output on the AVR.


I use one similar to this to connect both my F12s to my Pioneer AVR.

My Onkyo on the other hand has two subwoofer outputs and I connect my two Lava 10 inchers directly into those.

I got two F12s because I like how my original F12 performed and how it looked and it worked out great having dual F12s. Most people recommend to not mix different subs, or it could be a real pain to make them sound nice together. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I guess someone would need to try it out first to see if it really is that difficult on combining downfiring and frontfiring subs.
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post #1965 of 2839 Old 02-21-2011, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

Good reading here: http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ge...-bass/two-subs

Only skimmed through it but I agree with some points in that article.

Quote:


When you're getting ready to pick out a new subwoofer for your home theater system, I'd highly encourage you to instead choose two subs. The benefits of multi-subwoofer systems are well documented and proven. The only circumstance where I would choose a single sub over dual subs is if your budget and placement are constrained and you listen at a single position only. If budget is a factor, then I'd recommend spending a little less on that first sub now with the intent of adding an identical second sub at a later date. If size is a factor when choosing between adding one or two subwoofers to your system, consider doing what I did and go with two smaller but potent subwoofers.

I totally agree with his recommendation. I got my first F12 because I was on a tighter budget and I wanted something quick, then later when I had a little more free money I bought another one. At $360 for two F12s, its a great bargain and the quality just raises up a notch with two of them IMO.
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post #1966 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 03:43 AM
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I appreciate your time to help me out, and I read that article as well. I'm trying to learn all I can before I make purchases, you two have helped me with that
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post #1967 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

Sometimes it actually is the equipment - not the room, not the listener.
I actually spent far more time and effort trying to get the F12 to sound good.
No, we are not simply trying to fuel argument. Have you ever listened
to a sub that was better than the F12? Probably not... that's why you are so
happy with it.

Rob, If I recall correctly, you couldn't do a sub crawl with your F12 because furniture placement was more important.
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Unfortunately, our living room more or less dictates where the equipment can go. Placement of the screen, front and center speakers, sub, sectional sofa and easy chairs are all less than optimum. The room is pretty much like a jigsaw puzzle. There's not a square foot of floor space that would allow anything to be moved to the left or right.

As it is I'll have no eliminate the LP turntable to fit in the second sub (it's been years since we listened to vinyl anyway). I'm hoping that having both subs on the front wall will work well. I just read a lengthy sub discussion in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15793728#post15793728 which basically says that's a no-no, but there's little else that I can do.

Thanks for your positive experience.

Also, you were not happy with your Klipsch sub until you bought a second one to even out the nulls.
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Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

Just ordered a second Sub-12. First one has performed very well. There are notes that it takes in stride which the F12 would not even reproduce. I found I have a dead spot in my living room right where my easy chair sits at around 50Hz, and I understand this is not unusual for a square structure, so I'm hoping adding a second sub may help even that out.

I still get a bit of flack in the F12 thread here for basically having been dissatisfied with the BIC F12, which in all honesty is not a bad piece of equipment. But I just needed something better.

Perhaps you should have put forth as much effort with the F12 as you did with the Klipsches.

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post #1968 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 04:47 AM
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Auger - thanks for at least reading my posts before passing judgment. The F12 was my third sub, and all have been constrained with the same placement issues... including the Klipsches. Quite simply, the F12 could not reproduce several low notes in some pieces of music that I listen to often. OTOH I was quite pleased that the Klipsch delivered them solidly.

I really did work hard with the F12. After reading such good reviews I had very high expectations. Please notice that the worst I have ever said about the F12 is that I was disappointed in its performance. Others here brought up the H word. It is not a bad sub, just IMHO inappropriate for music.

The second Klipsch was icing on the cake. I found a second one on sale for even a little less than I had paid for the first, and I agree that a second sub does even out the response of the room. I do not doubt that a second F12 would have sounded better than a single one, however I do not believe that a second F12 would have reproduced lower notes than a single one.

Had I known a year ago that I would end up investing $500 in subs I probably would have gone with an HSU. But dropping that much cash on a single speaker that I could not even listen to before buying is scary. After all, I had never heard of HSU. On the other hand, I have heard of Klipsch, and yes, even previously owned BIC.

Some will criticize the length of this post. I felt that some could possibly benefit from my experience. And I apologize for not including a nod and a wink in some of my one-liners intended to amuse. I do have better things to do with my time than constantly defend myself. However, I believe I am entitled to express my own opinion, even if it goes counter to the majority.

Thanks for listening.

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post #1969 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

[snip] the F12 could not reproduce several low notes in some pieces of music that I listen to often. OTOH I was quite pleased that the Klipsch delivered them solidly. [snip]

You've made this statement several times. I wish you would elaborate on which notes you weren't hearing, as the frequency response of the F12 is actually wider @ 25-200Hz, vs. the Sub12 @ 24-120Hz, and the low end of both ranges is virtually identical.

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post #1970 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 05:45 AM
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At the risk of garnering ridicule for my musical tastes, Blue Man Group - Club Nowhere, or any track featuring the Phil drum... a six foot wide bass drum. But specifically Adiemus Kaiama builds to a crescendo at 1:34... there is a bass note there that is just missing with the F12, as well as several other types of speakers. Outside of New Age, several classical pieces - no specific references - bass cello or tympani just do not sound right.

EDIT correction: Adiemus In Cælum Fero at 1:58 (it's 1:34 in the radio edit version)

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post #1971 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elisha View Post

You can put lipstick on a pig but in the end of the day it's still a pig!

You would know huh...
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post #1972 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Elisha View Post

Yeah recommend by people with no basis of comparison!

Have done a TON of comparing, speak only for yourself please.
If you don't have and/or don't like the F12, why are you here? You input does nothing but offend people.
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post #1973 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longball07 View Post

This is what I have come to realize also. I have a Yamaha 765 and if I turn the volume knob on the f12 to 4 or 5 or 11 or 12 oclock then I have to turn it up on the receiver almost to the max (9.5 or 10dB). But now I am really pushing the receiver turning it up that high (at least that is my understanding). So I turned the receiver level to 4.5dB and turned the volume knob on the f12 to 7 or 2 oclock.

longball, WOW, when I turn my Yammy to 0db it's about all I can handle and my F12 is set to 3.5 or so. It is 135wpc X 7, don't know what yours is but, it sounds like there is still something wrong in your setup. Have my F12 set at -1db in the bass management section. Have you tried another wire to hook the sub up to your AVR? Check the other settings on the back of the F12 and in the sound menu of your Yammy, the manual that came with the AVR should have a section that explains in detail every step to adjust every aspect. Someone said YPAO or Audysee are just a starting point and that is very true.
Still very pleased with my single F12 for both movies AND music, but I certainly don't have the right kind of taste in music as would be expected from some of the real audiophiles here!
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post #1974 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 07:57 AM
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Yes I have tried 3 different sub cables, all sound identical. I have been through the manual 3 or 4 different times front to back, I have all the settings set correctly. The nice thing is that I was fortunate enough to test a couple other AVR's in my setup. First my dad has a older yamaha rx-v659 and the sub sounded about the same on it (that is why I agreed with pianoman about yamaha's). A buddy of mine had his HDMI go out in his onkya 606 about 2 weeks ago, so I was able to talk him into bring that and bring his new replacement AVR, which was a Marantz. The onkya and marantz both pushed the sub harder then the yamaha's, to that point where I had to turn down the volume knob to 3 and turn down the dB settings on both relievers. So yes, the yamaha's need to be turned up just a little about 4 or 5 db's and the volume knob turned to about 6 or 7 and they sound fine.
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post #1975 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Sound Master BIC View Post
Have done a TON of comparing, speak only for yourself please.
If you don't have and/or don't like the F12, why are you here? You input does nothing but offend people.
I have owned one. And I didn't like it. But I'm sure you'll defend it to your grave based on your username.
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post #1976 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post
At the risk of garnering ridicule for my musical tastes, Blue Man Group - Club Nowhere, or any track featuring the Phil drum... a six foot wide bass drum. But specifically Adiemus Kaiama builds to a crescendo at 1:34... there is a bass note there that is just missing with the F12, as well as several other types of speakers. Outside of New Age, several classical pieces - no specific references - bass cello or tympani just do not sound right.


EDIT correction: Adiemus In Cælum Fero at 1:58 (it's 1:34 in the radio edit version)
While instruments can have harmonics and overtones, the tipani has a fundamental frequency of around 65Hz, while a double bass cello "E" is around 41Hz. You mentioned a null at your seating position of about 50 Hz, which could explain at least part of your problem, since it's smack dab in the middle of those two frequencies.

A very slight adjustment of the subwoofer can accentuate or de-emphasize certain frequencies, and move peaks and nulls around in a room. As has been stated repeatedly in this and other threads, subwoofer location is critical, so I would not blame the F12 just yet. What should have been done in a perfect world is a frequency sweep with something such as the REW program, to map your peaks and nulls in your room. Then a more scientific and reasonable explanation could be had.

BTW, I just played In Cælum Fero, and at 1:58 the bass slam is there in my room, with the F12. Cantus Iteratus has an almost constant bass line "march" that also comes through nicely. On another note (no pun intended), my listening position is slightly nulled at around 75Hz, and I have not been able to eliminate it as of yet, so I am missing out on other material, I'm sure.

Room acoustics, subwoofer placement, and equalization are key for low frequency response.

Also, all things considered a sealed sub should be better for music, and a ported sub for HT. While some expensive subs can manage both somewhat well, there are always compromises.

And to remind our readers, the F12 is a ported sub and an inexpensive one, after all.

YMMV, IMHO, and all that.

EDIT: You can also have phase cancelation or interference when using "double bass" or setting the front speakers to "large", as well as holes in the frequency response when using less than adequate speakers, such as mini-sized lifestyle speakers.

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post #1977 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 09:15 AM
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I bought 2 f12 from amazon last week. Hooked them up on Friday night and ran the audyssey from the onkyo tx-nr3008 AVR.

First off, I have a SVS 20-39 pci subwoofer already in place in my theater room, I disconnected it to put the dual f12's into use.

I ended up stacking them one on top of the other in the far left corner of my room, exactly where my SVS has resided for 2 years.

The SVS goes down to 20hz so it does give a little more of the bass you can feel rather then hear so much but these f12 subs are downright great values!

I played the first 10 minutes of saving private Ryan on blu ray disc and it was absolutely fantastic . The bass was pounding relentlessly and never did the f12 get muddy sounding or fail to produce the necessary notes.

I then played 3:10 to Yuma on Blu Ray. This disc has an amazing DTS-MA soundtrack. Again the subs were amazing on the pounding of shotgun blasts and the great musical soundtrack.

I am running a onkyo tx-nr3008 AVR, Aperion Audio 6C towers, Aperion 6c center and Aperion audio 5BP surrounds. My crossovers are set at 80/80/80 And my LFE channel at 120.

These are staying in my system and I'm selling my SVS. I may even buy 2 more of the F12 for the rear corner of my room and all 4 cost about $50 more then the 1 SVS!

If your in the market for a great sub under $200 I see no reason to not purchase 1 or better even 2 of the f12 subs.
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post #1978 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elisha View Post
I have owned one. And I didn't like it. But I'm sure you'll defend it to your grave based on your username.
You 'owned one' you don't have one, why do you continue in this forum, nobody else to talk to? And I'm sure you will offend it and everyone here who likes it to your grave.
Go put on some lipstick and join a different forum.
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post #1979 of 2839 Old 02-22-2011, 01:50 PM
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Thanks Augerhandle for all the info, much of which is not new to me, but I think others will also benefit from it greatly. I will admit that there could be a fundamental incompatibility between our living room and the response characteristics of the F12. However, the Klipsch sits in the same spot as did the F12. Both of them were moved forward and backward, side to side as much as space limitations would allow. We all have to deal with such constraints. For whatever reason, the Klipsch could do what the BIC didn't or wouldn't. Hence, my only fault with the F12 was (as I had said earlier) that I was unsatisfied or disappointed.

I really wanted the F12 to be "the one". I didn't embark on this with the intent of swapping equipment... buying one and selling another. In a way I envy those who bought an SVS or HSU on nothing more than an online recommendation, and have been happy ever since. Best thing about the F12 in my case was that it was so easy to sell. Wish I could do the same with some of the other speakers I've bought, didn't care for, boxed up and put in the basement. Now if the Klipsch holds up I think the current setup should be good for the next decade... hopefully.

Thanks again for addressing this situation seriously. I do enjoy participating in this forum.

Polk RtiA9's, Denon 3312ci & Emo XPA-5 amp, CsiA6, RtiA7 surrounds, FxiA6 rears, twin Klipsch Synergy Sub-12's, DSW660 & Lsi9's upstairs
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