Got My Replacement Amp from AV123.... - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Well, if the amp really is FCC certified (I'm assuming it's some kind of a switching amp) then there must be an appropriate FCC approved boilerplate comment placed in the manual. Does yours have that?

I'd check but...the MFW does not come with a manual! The amp is silk screened with FCC and CE on it (but no indication of registered trade mark). Not sure what the FCC logo look like the CE looks correct.

Not sure why the FCC matters much anyway. It falls under part 15 b which regulates, in part, unintentional radiators. Unless this transmission could feed back unwanted noise I could care less if it broadcasts radio waves in my house.
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post #182 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Well, if the amp really is FCC certified (I'm assuming it's some kind of a switching amp) then there must be an appropriate FCC approved boilerplate comment placed in the manual. Does yours have that?

Me either. With all due respect to AV123 customers, I personally consider AV123 not adverse to taking shortcuts and as a guide (not proof mind you) I'd consider examining other subwoofers from places like Paradigm as well as their manuals.

Well, to be flippant I could say contact AV123's engineering and legal department but we both know that doesn't exist. But just to address one aspect of your comment, if you buy the amp from an outside contractor and its intent is to be used in domestic applications, then I'd say the manufacturer of the amp is required to do so. Now, that doesn't mean that the manufacturer doesn't enter into negotiations with the buyer if the buyer is the exclusive user of these amps as to how that's paid for.

Now, you know I'm kind of a suspicious guy, graphicguy. Wondering what's hiding under the stone if you will. So, let me toss something out for you. As I understand it, the MFW's were made with a domestically sourced subwoofer driver. I also understand that it's a custom job but that the driver itself has no identifying markings on it. How do you know that future drivers will also come from that same manufacturer and won't be sourced from another company. Maybe one from India or China? Maybe one that's a perfect match. Maybe one that's not so perfect a match.

Anyways, aside from the amp issues as pertains to the MFW, there are numerous other issues that AV123 must take in order to move forward successfully.

CHU.....You? Suspicious? C'mon!!!!!!!!

CE and FCC...big block letters on the amp itself. This is on my "old amp" MFW.

The driver is from Eminence (a very good one, I might add) has not changed as far as I know. Nothing I've read nor heard would lead me to believe any of that has changed with the new MFWs now being bought and shipped.

Also sometimes lost in the noise, the MFW is a Mark Seaton Design.

LSs are being shipped. Many have already shipped.

All the other stuff I've seen posted, I have no idea where it comes from. The only "raffle" person I was aware of was completely compensated.

I will say, in conversations I've had with AV123 personnel, and others associated indirectly with AV123, MLS lost a great deal in his association with the Chinese manufacturer who bamboozled him with the bad parts in the 2nd batch of MFWs. Then, that person took the money and ran....just disappeared.

Moreover, in addition to lost MFW business, was the immense cost associated with first, shipping new "old" amps on little more than a request while he tried to figure out exactly what was going wrong. Then, incurring the expense of having the amp redesigned (which was done by Doug Goldberg). Then, trashing whatever old stock amp modules that were left over, and replacing them all with the newly redesigned amp modules (which are supposed to be more powerful than the old ones). Then, there's the shipping costs involved in replacing the amps.

In short, not a small job, nor one that didn't come at great, great expense. MLS stuck with it...saw it through, while battling serious personal illness himself. I have spoken to him. And, any one who did while he was feeling his worst, knows how bad he was. Yet, he was working to resolve the issues, at great physical, personal, and financial expense.

Bottom line, a working MFW is a great sub. From the pics I've seen, the new amp module looks "neat and clean" compared to the old one. If that's any indication of quality (which I don't know....I'm not an EE), then they promise to be stellar, given Doug Goldberg's involvement.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'm not employed by AV123. I'm not a moderator for them. I'm not any sort of "official ambassador" for them. I receive no compensation from them. I have no involvement with AV123 other than being a happy customer. Based on some of the PMs I've received (many times resorting to some pretty nasty names), I have in the past, and will continue to support AV123. This is based on the performance of their products....the value they represent....and the sterling customer service I've received.

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post #183 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

CHU.....You? Suspicious? C'mon!!!!!!!!

CE and FCC...big block letters on the amp itself. This is on my "old amp" MFW.

Hard to believe isn't it? The block letters mean nothing by themselves. According to regulations they must be accompanied by the relevant boilerplate text in the manual. Now, check your manual and see what it says. Maybe then you'll be suspicious too!

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The driver is from Eminence (a very good one, I might add) has not changed as far as I know. Nothing I've read nor heard would lead me to believe any of that has changed with the new MFWs now being bought and shipped.

You could be right. I hope so. But you know it's not unusual for parts to be substituted and changes to be made in any existing product. Hence, if there's no designation on the subwoofer that can make it quite easy to source a replacement from elsewhere.

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Also sometimes lost in the noise, the MFW is a Mark Seaton Design.

I know and he was paid accordingly. Who takes responsibility for incoming QC? That doesn't mean that a driver from another source can't be used. Companies in all areas are always investigating ways they can make the same product for less money.

Quote:


LSs are being shipped. Many have already shipped.

All the other stuff I've seen posted, I have no idea where it comes from. The only "raffle" person I was aware of was completely compensated.

If'n I was MLS, I'd never do another raffle again.

Quote:


I will say, in conversations I've had with AV123 personnel, and others associated indirectly with AV123, MLS lost a great deal in his association with the Chinese manufacturer who bamboozled him with the bad parts in the 2nd batch of MFWs. Then, that person took the money and ran....just disappeared.

Assuming that manufacturer is still in business, I'd assume the contract they had (they did have a contract, no?) allowed for a chargeback for defective merchandise. Now, that doesn't mean that MLS's business wasn't adversely affected. Plus, while they may not have affected you, you've also read about assembly problems, veneer issues, and some defective drivers.

Quote:


Moreover, in addition to lost MFW business, was the immense cost associated with first, shipping new "old" amps on little more than a request while he tried to figure out exactly what was going wrong. Then, incurring the expense of having the amp redesigned (which was done by Doug Goldberg). Then, trashing whatever old stock amp modules that were left over, and replacing them all with the newly redesigned amp modules (which are supposed to be more powerful than the old ones). Then, there's the shipping costs involved in replacing the amps.

Not to be cavalier about it, but that's the cost of doing business. If AV123 had a QC department, they'd have caught this early on.

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In short, not a small job, nor one that didn't come at great, great expense. MLS stuck with it...saw it through, while battling serious personal illness himself. I have spoken to him. And, any one who did while he was feeling his worst, knows how bad he was. Yet, he was working to resolve the issues, at great physical, personal, and financial expense.

Quite so but you know, it never had to get this bad.

Quote:


Bottom line, a working MFW is a great sub. From the pics I've seen, the new amp module looks "neat and clean" compared to the old one. If that's any indication of quality (which I don't know....I'm not an EE), then they promise to be stellar, given Doug Goldberg's involvement.

Me neither, but the pictures do suggest an amateur approach to the original one. One day, crack open a car amp and see how clean it is. To the rest, from your lips to God's ears.

Quote:


I've said it before, I'll say it again. I'm not employed by AV123. I'm not a moderator for them. I'm not any sort of "official ambassador" for them. I receive no compensation from them. I have no involvement with AV123 other than being a happy customer. Based on some of the PMs I've received (many times resorting to some pretty nasty names), I have in the past, and will continue to support AV123. This is based on the performance of their products....the value they represent....and the sterling customer service I've received.

Me neither. I also don't represent a competitor. If anything I tend towards advocating for the consumer and look for them to ask more pertinent and probing questions. I'm a muckraker and I'm not satisfied with a pat answer. Let me ask you a question. If MLS were to become incapable of running the company for whatever possible reason, does AV123 still exist?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #184 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I know and he was paid accordingly.

Don't be so certain of that...
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post #185 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 07:09 PM
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OMG, you people are so frickin nitpicky. I guess I misunderstood. Call the owner if you want the explanation again. He must have said he sent the mosfet parts to the manufacturer and I thought he meant something else. Why not just say thanks for the information and move along?

Um, you do know where you're at right? That post can spur a thread on for at least 40 pages! One wrong word, or, maybe two, not sure the exact requirement but it ain't much is all it takes!

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post #186 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 07:22 PM
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Um, you do know where you're at right? That post can spur a thread on for at least 40 pages! One wrong word, or, maybe two, not sure the exact requirement but it ain't much is all it takes!

I think it takes: A) two multisyllabic words in a row, B) five monosyllabic words in a row that are contentious or C) one imprecise definition. Of course weather, time of day and the lunar cycle are also factors.

Any combination of the above has an exponential growth factor involved as well.

It is frequently the case that when you get several people passionate about a subject together that someone may rub someone else wrong. Normally it is by accident, so a little thicker skin and a lot more understanding is required online.

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post #187 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 07:25 PM
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Theres an article right now in the news about Chinese mfrs screwing people left and right, and KNOWING there is no legal recourse....So bewarned....its going to get worse, not better...


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...est=latestnews

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post #188 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by theelviscerator View Post

Theres an article right now in the news about Chinese mfrs screwing people left and right, and KNOWING there is no legal recourse....So bewarned....its going to get worse, not better...


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...est=latestnews

How we can do any business with a country as corrupt as China which seems hell bent on sending us the worst crap they can throw together is beyond me.

We are being purchased by China and bending over for it with stupid grins on our faces...

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -- Winston Churchill
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can you guys hurry up and crash your dollar so I can buy more gear?
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post #190 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 08:05 PM
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can you guys hurry up and crash your dollar so I can buy more gear?

We're working on it.

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post #191 of 230 Old 05-28-2009, 08:07 PM
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can you guys hurry up and crash your dollar so I can buy more gear?

Normally after that happens a World War begins...so watch it!

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post #192 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

The driver is from Eminence (a very good one, I might add) has not changed as far as I know. Nothing I've read nor heard would lead me to believe any of that has changed with the new MFWs now being bought and shipped.

You missed Craigsub's multiple posts where he said the original driver was Eminence but his understanding from Seaton was that there was a possibility that drivers would come from a different source in the future?

Then again, you must have missed the post where MLS mentioned 3 "underfunded raffles" as well. (A complete LIE! The raffles were fully funded by the donors, he simply stole the money and was slow to pay it back.)

Then again you miss all the other lies and broken promises. They must not come through the rose colored MLS signature edition edition sunglasses.
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post #193 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Also sometimes lost in the noise, the MFW is a Mark Seaton Design.

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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I know and he was paid accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Don't be so certain of that...

No kidding! Customers were denied products and refunds, charities were denied money that had been collected for them, why would anyone think the suppliers and outside consultants were treated any better?

If you look at all the delays, you could accept the excuse that everyone in the audio industry is slow and unresponsive, or you might think that maybe just maybe, people don't deliver designs and products when they are not getting paid or are not expecting to get paid for them. Naw, that can't be it MLS is perfect, and everybody is just out to get him. Yeah that makes more sense.
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post #194 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

The original designer of the MFW-15 indicated that there was a possibility that the MFW-15's in the future would have a driver sourced outside Eminence.

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Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

The driver is from Eminence (a very good one, I might add) has not changed as far as I know. Nothing I've read nor heard would lead me to believe any of that has changed with the new MFWs now being bought and shipped.

Post 129 from this thread. Nothing you have "read nor heard" would lead you to believe it has definitely changed in the new batch, but you certainly have seen or heard things that let you know it is a possibility.
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post #195 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 03:41 AM
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So even if the amp issue is put to rest, we'll still have another issue to stress over. Wonderful.

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post #196 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by iresq View Post

I'd check but...the MFW does not come with a manual! The amp is silk screened with FCC and CE on it (but no indication of registered trade mark). Not sure what the FCC logo look like the CE looks correct.

Not sure why the FCC matters much anyway. It falls under part 15 b which regulates, in part, unintentional radiators. Unless this transmission could feed back unwanted noise I could care less if it broadcasts radio waves in my house.

Well one reason it matters has to do with truth in advertising. Integrity if you will. Truth. Honesty. If it's said to be so then ought you the consumer expect that it is so? If a company is willing to lie about that, what else are they willing to lie about? Another reason, and we don't that to be the case here, is if there were unintended emissions, what if their strength and frequency were such that they interfered with a pacemaker?

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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Don't be so certain of that...

Yeah, I know. On another forum I read an exchange between MLS and someone else that certainly suggested that what was promised was not delivered. Well, at least he's got his home in LA, Colorado, Russia, & China. It would be tragic to find those could no longer be maintained.

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post #197 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post

So even if the amp issue is put to rest, we'll still have another issue to stress over. Wonderful.

Whether you stress over it or not might depend how it affects you personally. As a company though, AV123 has a number of issues that customers in general need to have addressed. Allow me to list but a few.

The warranty on existing problematic MFW subs needs to be addressed.
In fact, if you read their warranties in general, they're not especially clear how potential problems, most of which have been experienced by customers, are addressed. For example veneer cracking. Is a satisfactory solution to that to offer the customer $100 in store credit for that problem? Had your wife bought a piece of furniture and found that after 9 months the veneer was cracking and coming up, would she jump for joy to be offered a store credit? If minor, the store would send someone to repair it. Otherwise, it would be picked up by the store that delivered it and you'd be refunded your money. Now, they might try to strike a deal but you'd be well within your rights to have it taken back. This issue btw, is not limited to the MFW.

There are many people who've bought a different sub, the UFW, and they're still without an amp. They need to be taken care of and they've been waiting longer than the MFW folks.

While bad drivers in a speaker are not unknown and generally taken care of by the shipment of a replacement, I've seen far more posts that deal with AV123 products. To add to that, there've been post that dealt with sundry leaks due to assembly issues and messed up gaskets. What's going on there?

M-Fine has mentioned the issue of underfunded raffles. However you want to spin the words, this really is a matter that needs to be aired and dealt with.

IMO, completely satisfied users and others need to stand with those members of the AV123 community that have been affected. You're not a community of just satisified users. You're a social community and as a community which is also an unpaid marketing arm of AV123 whether you choose to recognize it or not, you have the ability as an aggregate to bring to bear a collective force every bit as powerful as the company you do business with. If people who aren't affected or were never affected don't speak out in support, who will speak out for you when your turn comes?

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post #198 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Well one reason it matters has to do with truth in advertising. Integrity if you will. Truth. Honesty. If it's said to be so then ought you the consumer expect that it is so?

Chu, I 100% agree with you. My point was more 'Does FCC certification really mean anything?' If the MFW is not FCC certified, then clearly AV123 has misrepresented it's product in that regard.
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post #199 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 05:13 AM
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The apologists for MLS are absolutely amazing.

The total lack of ethics/morality/support demonstrated by AV123/MLS is incredible. In just about any other industry, it would have been business ending.

John
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post #200 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 06:02 AM
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The Debby Downers in the thread trying to get it locked again.

Never knew you could get a Phd in Schadenfreude.

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post #201 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 06:05 AM
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Chu....much of what you say can be said of any sub vendor.

They can change amps, drivers, etc. No one would know unless they cracked their sub open. I'm not sure it even matters.

Bottom line, all this hand wringing, speculation, microscopic dissection, motivation to buy....not to buy, is up to the individual consumer. For whatever reason someone doesn't want to buy from AV123, that's totally their prerogative. For those like me, who have been well taken care of by AV123, the answer is easy.

As far as those who don't, whatever their motivation is to "slam" the company, MLS, the products, they can choose not to buy. The purpose of the incessant complaining confounds me.

There are ID companies who I've done business with, but never will again. I have my reasons, which I think are good ones. Others have their own agendas.

Regarding the MFW, it's a great sub. The latter ones had some issues. They're in the process of being rectified. Some have said they never would be. Obviously, it appears that they were wrong.

Buy it, or not. I recommend them heartily, though.

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post #202 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Chu....much of what you say can be said of any sub vendor.

They can change amps, drivers, etc. No one would know unless they cracked their sub open. I'm not sure it even matters.

Bottom line, all this hand wringing, speculation, microscopic dissection, motivation to buy....not to buy, is up to the individual consumer. For whatever reason someone doesn't want to buy from AV123, that's totally their prerogative. For those like me, who have been well taken care of by AV123, the answer is easy.

As far as those who don't, whatever their motivation is to "slam" the company, MLS, the products, they can choose not to buy. The purpose of the incessant complaining confounds me.

There are ID companies who I've done business with, but never will again. I have my reasons, which I think are good ones. Others have their own agendas.

Regarding the MFW, it's a great sub. The latter ones had some issues. They're in the process of being rectified. Some have said they never would be. Obviously, it appears that they were wrong.

Buy it, or not. I recommend them heartily, though.

Can you refresh our memories, how much more did you spend on the MFW compared to paying the standard price for the replacement part for your out-of-warranty HSU subwoofer?
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post #203 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

The latter ones had some issues. They're in the process of being rectified. Some have said they never would be. Obviously, it appears that they were wrong.

Buy it, or not. I recommend them heartily, though.

Clearly you simply don't get it.

You could have made the same statement about amp issues about to be rectified a half dozen times about several subs in the past. Obviously you would have been wrong.

As long as you continue to recomsnd the company and it's products including selective and inaccurate reporting of the situation, there will be others who will warn potential customers about the other side of MLS and AV123. People have been screwed and despite your blind faith many are still far from being made whole.
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post #204 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by m-fine416 View Post

Clearly you simply don't get it.

You could have made the same statement about amp issues about to be rectified a half dozen times about several subs in the past. Obviously you would have been wrong.

As long as you continue to recomsnd the company and it's products including selective and inaccurate reporting of the situation, there will be others who will warn potential customers about the other side of MLS and AV123. People have been screwed and despite your blind faith many are still far from being made whole.



But you don't want to be made whole do you?


If MLS rectified every last situation to the fullest extent, I don't think your opinion would change.

You would say that he had screwed people in the past, and to never ever deal with AV123, because it could happen again.

Right or?

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post #205 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by theelviscerator View Post

The Debby Downers in the thread trying to get it locked again.

Never knew you could get a Phd in Schadenfreude.

There are two sides that have experienced misfortunes here - AV123 and many users. There is no delight being taken. As Churchill said, "Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things."

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Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Chu....much of what you say can be said of any sub vendor.

They can change amps, drivers, etc. No one would know unless they cracked their sub open. I'm not sure it even matters.

Parts substitution may or may not matter depending upon who you've got in your company that's skilled in being able to verify equivalency. Have recent matters inspired you one way or the other?

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Bottom line, all this hand wringing, speculation, microscopic dissection, motivation to buy....not to buy, is up to the individual consumer. For whatever reason someone doesn't want to buy from AV123, that's totally their prerogative. For those like me, who have been well taken care of by AV123, the answer is easy.

As far as those who don't, whatever their motivation is to "slam" the company, MLS, the products, they can choose not to buy. The purpose of the incessant complaining confounds me.

There are ID companies who I've done business with, but never will again. I have my reasons, which I think are good ones. Others have their own agendas.

Regarding the MFW, it's a great sub. The latter ones had some issues. They're in the process of being rectified. Some have said they never would be. Obviously, it appears that they were wrong.

Buy it, or not. I recommend them heartily, though.

The AV123 house has much to get in order.

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post #206 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theelviscerator View Post

But you don't want to be made whole do you?


If MLS rectified every last situation to the fullest extent, I don't think your opinion would change.

You would say that he had screwed people in the past, and to never ever deal with AV123, because it could happen again.

Right or?

Maybe you're right. Maybe this has been the most profoundest of wakeup calls. Maybe he's been rehabilitated. For others, those who are able to see further into the past may have a more accurate picture of the future. Me, I'd like to see AV123 run more like a business with far less emphasis on family. We all, and myself included, tend to make excuses for our family. "Well, you know, that's just how Aunt Vicky is...she means well."

BTW, I understand he now has problems with his Yahoo mail account. Something like that has never happened in the past, has it?

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post #207 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by theelviscerator View Post

But you don't want to be made whole do you?


If MLS rectified every last situation to the fullest extent, I don't think your opinion would change.

You would say that he had screwed people in the past, and to never ever deal with AV123, because it could happen again.

Right or?

Well, since this is not a single mistake, but a long established pattern of behavior, yeah it will take a LONG time of consistent performance to convince me he has changed. Recommending his company to others has cost me a LOT of heartburn and I am not rushing to experience that again.

Its not personal, it is sensible caution based on a pattern of behavior. For example, after the LMC-1 issues I have seen Emotiva make some major changes to the way they run their business. I still have not given them any money, but after a couple years I am getting comfortable enough to do so. The quickest way for me to get comfortable with AV123 again would be a new owner and CEO with established credibility to take it over. Otherwise it will take years for Mark to establish a new track record. He said watch his actions in 2009, and I have. So far I have seen more lies, more hollow promises, more missed dates. 5 months in and so far he has dug the hole deeper, not establishing a new direction. Hopefully June/July will prove to be the start of a turnaround, but having been dissapointed before, I am not holding my breath.
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post #208 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 10:19 AM
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So this batch of MFWs might have new different drivers?


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post #209 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Bottom line, all this hand wringing, speculation, microscopic dissection, motivation to buy....not to buy, is up to the individual consumer. For whatever reason someone doesn't want to buy from AV123, that's totally their prerogative. For those like me, who have been well taken care of by AV123, the answer is easy.

And naturally your being "well take care of by AV123" clearly trumps any opinion offered by anyone else right?

I'm still waiting for MLS to ship my parents a subwoofer that I paid for and has been sitting at his house since 10/31/2008. I've been relatively quiet about it. I haven't called and e-mailed on a daily basis about it. I'm curious to see if he ever steps up to the plate and delivers. If he can't be bothered to ship something that's sitting in the box on the floor in his basement to someone who paid for it almost 7 months ago why should someone assume they will be taken care of with a defective product?

But yeah, since you've been well take care of we should just sit back and let you mislead people. You'll just have to excuse me if I don't.
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post #210 of 230 Old 05-29-2009, 11:02 AM
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Couple of things, and I'll bow out as I think this thread (once again) is getting perilously close to being closed down.

-I won't drag another ID company into this discussion, as it's not the right place. If you want to do that, PM me and I'll gladly discuss it.

-It seems my positive experiences with AV123 irritates some of you. Don't really know why, as I see positive experiences having just as much validity as negative ones.

-I think a lot of the information some are seeking with regards to drivers, amps, etc can be answered by calling AV123. Give'm a jingle. There's a good possibility you'll get MLS on the phone. You can direct your questions, complaints, suggestions, etc to the man himself. He's a personable guy and loves talking to his customers/potential customers.

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