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post #91 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

OMG. That is too f'n FUNNY! Thanks. He tried to use it because it has been used a few times recently in another thread he's trying to participate in.

Don't get me wrong, I like penngray (although I know the two of you aren't getting along real well right now), I just had to look into it to see if it was true
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post #92 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

(although I know the two of you aren't getting along real well right now)


"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #93 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post


That's just the impression I got from his thread in the DIY forum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1156115
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post #94 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

That's just the impression I got from his thread in the DIY forum
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1156115

Yeah, he got me good, there, didn't he? Embarrassing.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #95 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 01:04 PM
 
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Oh...oh...look who popped into the discussion...game over.

Not.

Regards,
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post #96 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 01:06 PM
 
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Penngray and sivadselim don't dislike each other or anything. It's like me and sivadselim. It's a love/hate relationship. But we by no means hate each other. Although he can't read me that well anymore and that makes things a bit interesting.

The only other poster here who torments me is Mr Palmer. But at least he has a sense of humor, something Kal Rubinson doesn't possess. He's about as flat as a pancake.

Regards,
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post #97 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Penngray and sivadselim don't dislike each other or anything. It's like me and sivadselim. It's a love/hate relationship. But we by no means hate each other. Although he can't read me that well anymore and that makes things a bit interesting.

I read you pretty well, goneten. I just play along, sometimes. We have to put on a show for everyone.

And I DO dislike penngray.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #98 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 02:16 PM
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I have dual SVS PB13 Ultras, equidistant from the main listening position, and placed symmetrically in the room.

I currently have them gain-matched. I notice that one hits it's limits before the other (not supposed to happen with gain-matched subs).

What is the more likely reason for them not hitting their limits at the same time? ...

1. I think they are gain-matched, but setting the gain the same on the back really isn't enough. I need to place each in the middle of the room (one at a time) and gain match them by taking a reading 6" or 1 meter away and making sure the SPL readings match.

2. The sub's woofer/amp that is hitting it's limits first is somehow inferior to the other.

3. Something else (please explain).

thanks,
doug.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #99 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I have dual SVS PB13 Ultras, equidistant from the main listening position, and placed symmetrically in the room.

I currently have them gain-matched. I notice that one hits it's limits before the other (not supposed to happen with gain-matched subs).

What is the more likely reason for them not hitting their limits at the same time? ...

1. I think they are gain-matched, but setting the gain the same on the back really isn't enough. I need to place each in the middle of the room (one at a time) and gain match them by taking a reading 6" or 1 meter away and making sure the SPL readings match.

2. The sub's woofer/amp that is hitting it's limits first is somehow inferior to the other.

3. Something else (please explain).

thanks,
doug.

How are you determining that they are reaching their limits? Independent max SPL sweeps or just by ear? If by ear could you explain what each sub is doing differently?

Assuming they are reaching their limits at different points I'd try (1) out, if that doesn't fix the issue than (2) sounds pretty logical unless I'm missing something.
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post #100 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 02:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I currently have them gain-matched. I notice that one hits it's limits before the other (not supposed to happen with gain-matched subs -- added for extra effect...you guys suck...)

Oops. I've put the above in my diary for automatic retrieval when called for.

Regards,
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post #101 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Ha ! Nothing like the sweet sound of victory. Game over. This will put a dent in that argument. I've taken notes and put it in my diary for automatic retrieval when called for.

And a very colorful argument at that!

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #102 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 02:27 PM
 
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Hey, don't edit my posts and change them. How could you do that ?

Regards,
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post #103 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 02:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I currently have them gain-matched. I notice that one hits it's limits before the other (not supposed to happen with gain-matched subs).

I'm not sure why your sub is hitting it's limits before the other. But don't worry about it. You're in great company. I'm sure Craig John or better yet, Mark Seaton, can explain.

Regards,
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post #104 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

How are you determining that they are reaching their limits? Independent max SPL sweeps or just by ear? If by ear could you explain what each sub is doing differently?

I know it is hitting it's limits via the proverbial "popping" noise that most SVS PB13 Ultra owners know all too well.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #105 of 249 Old 06-19-2009, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

I'm not sure why your sub is hitting it's limits before the other. But don't worry about it. You're in great company. I'm sure Craig John or better yet, Mark Seaton, can explain.

Regards,

You are dead wrong in the advice you are dishing out. Perhaps you could try learning from others posts before you argue with them. You are so concerned about "winning" the argument you have missed the forrest for the trees and you are sticking to and recommending a highly flawed method.
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post #106 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 06:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by m-fine416 View Post

You are dead wrong in the advice you are dishing out. Perhaps you could try learning from others posts before you argue with them.

Yes, your posts stench of wisdom. Of course, you're entitled to your opinions around here but how much weight do your opinions actually have ? Because not all opinions are equally valid you know ? Some opinions have little weight behind them and others have no weight behind them. Want to take a guess which department your opinions fall under ? So no offense to you, but you are not qualified to tell me who I should learn from and you certainly are not qualified to make these flippant 'you're dead wrong' declarations around here. Declarations by fiat no less.

I've acknowledged that my method is flawed because I can see the 'forrest' (actually, 'forrests' don't exist, perhaps in your imagination) and actually understand the concepts involved. I hate to break it to you, but your method is also flawed, but you won't admit it because you can't admit it. But that's okay. If you don't understand your own method then you can't expect others to understand it's flaws either.

Quote:


You are so concerned about "winning" the argument you have missed the forrest for the trees and you are sticking to and recommending a highly flawed method.

There are many ways to skin a cat, m-fine416, some better than others. If you want to say that my method is 'highly flawed', you go straight ahead and enjoy it, but then let's not forget whose opinion we're talking about here. I may have missed the 'forest' once or twice in my time (there's no such thing as 'forrest' in the context you've used it in) but at least I'm not hopelessly lost in it, which is kind of poetic if you think about. Because that's what happens when you enter a discussion that's way bigger than you.

FYI, both methods are flawed whether you like it or not. If you can't see that or understand that then you can consult with your buddies via PM as I'm sure they would love to explain to you.

ReGards,
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post #107 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I have dual SVS PB13 Ultras, equidistant from the main listening position, and placed symmetrically in the room.

I currently have them gain-matched. I notice that one hits it's limits before the other (not supposed to happen with gain-matched subs).

What is the more likely reason for them not hitting their limits at the same time? ...

1. I think they are gain-matched, but setting the gain the same on the back really isn't enough. I need to place each in the middle of the room (one at a time) and gain match them by taking a reading 6" or 1 meter away and making sure the SPL readings match.

2. The sub's woofer/amp that is hitting it's limits first is somehow inferior to the other.

3. Something else (please explain).

thanks,
doug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

I know it is hitting it's limits via the proverbial "popping" noise that most SVS PB13 Ultra owners know all too well.

Hi Doug,

This would imply one of three possibilities. First, always double check the wiring. Ideally drive each with the same longer cable with a scene or signal which demonstrates the limit to confirm. If the subs were purchased at different times it is certainly a possibility that the gain of the amps in the two batches is different. The two drivers could also be reaching their limits at different output levels due to any number of reasons.

I would find a test signal which can easily highlight the overload, probably a VLF sine wave or one at the excursion maximum above tuning (20-30Hz). Using the exact same drive signal to both subs, match the gains so the drive signal is as close to the overload level as possible for each subwoofer. Now you will know one won't overload prior to the other.

As I posted already in this thread, this is not the only method to calibrate by, but each choice has a different set of compromises. SVS's own EQ calibrates separately, and can yield good results. I have calibrated subwoofers with different EQ curves (but usually keeping similar drive level as possible) to good effect as well. A major qualification for any approaches being discussed lies in the tools available and the patience or persistence of the person optimizing the system.

Mark Seaton
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post #108 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post


There are many ways to skin a cat, m-fine416, some better than others.

The issue is not the options to optimize multiple subwoofers. The issue is with your assertion and understanding of the benefits and limitations of various approaches.

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post #109 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 09:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

The issue is with your assertion and understanding of the benefits and limitations of various approaches.

So it isn't possible for me to know this because I'm not you ? Right, I'm not a 'sub designer' therefore it's not possible for me to understand this. Or is it really because my views don't fit your points ? Are you suggesting now that both methods don't have their flaws or are you going to punt your particular method being the only correct one ? Because it wouldn't surprise me if you did.

Regards,
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post #110 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

So it isn't possible for me to know this because I'm not you ? Right, I'm not a 'sub designer' therefore it's not possible for me to understand this. Or is it really because my views don't fit your points ? Are you suggesting now that both methods don't have their flaws or are you going to punt your particular method being the only correct one ? Because it wouldn't surprise me if you did.

Regards,

You are such an ass. It is not all OPINION. There are technical issues governed by the laws of physics that have nothing to do with anyones opinion. Well maybe in your world opinion trumps facts and physics, but for the rest of us living in reality it does not.
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post #111 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hi Doug,

This would imply one of three possibilities. First, always double check the wiring. Ideally drive each with the same longer cable with a scene or signal which demonstrates the limit to confirm. If the subs were purchased at different times it is certainly a possibility that the gain of the amps in the two batches is different. The two drivers could also be reaching their limits at different output levels due to any number of reasons.

I would find a test signal which can easily highlight the overload, probably a VLF sine wave or one at the excursion maximum above tuning (20-30Hz). Using the exact same drive signal to both subs, match the gains so the drive signal is as close to the overload level as possible for each subwoofer. Now you will know one won't overload prior to the other.

As I posted already in this thread, this is not the only method to calibrate by, but each choice has a different set of compromises. SVS's own EQ calibrates separately, and can yield good results. I have calibrated subwoofers with different EQ curves (but usually keeping similar drive level as possible) to good effect as well. A major qualification for any approaches being discussed lies in the tools available and the patience or persistence of the person optimizing the system.

I was hoping you would chime in Mark since I was following your preferred method of calibrating dual, non-colocated subs.

I received the Ultras a month apart so they may be from different batches.

A little backgroud...

When I purchased my first Ultra, I quickly realized that one sub was not going to be enough for me in my ~6400 cu ft basement.

The first thing that Ed from SVS suggested to me when I ordered the second sub was that I set the new Ultra 3dB higher than the first. He thought I may have already put the first through too much stress (too many occurances of the popping). I assured him that the popping had only occurred around 6 times. I couldn't believe that I could have possibly hurt my Ultra in such a small amount of time.

In my defense, the popping sneaks up on you, especially with movies that you haven't ever watched before.

In the beginning I noticed that the two subs were playing nice together at the same gain levels. Now (a couple of months later), I have noticed that the original sub plays 1 dB less at the same gain on the amp. Perhaps that is the reason why it is hitting it's limits first.

Although I don't play my movies all that loud, -10 at the most (usually -15), I found that movies like Flight of the Phoenix and The Incredible Hulk caused my subs to hit their limits at those volume levels (actually around -20). I later realized, after a long battle in the Audyssey thread, that Audyssey MultEQ XT wasn't correctly detecting the natural rolloff of the subs. I tried everything. I ran Audyssey and REW so many times in a month's period that I was beginning to lose my mind.

Finally, Ed at SVS told me that he was able to re-create my problem over and over again in his lab when using MultEQ XT. He told me that Audyssey Pro would correct my problem because it was working for him. He was right. I have run Audyssey Pro 3 times, and every time my subs' natural rolloff was detected perfectly. As a matter of fact, Audyssey Pro came up with the same trim levels for each channel every time I ran it (within .5 db). Audyssey Pro is very consistent, as opposed to regular MultEQ XT. All in all, I fear that Audyssey initially put my subs through some unneccessary stress.

This is why, when you mentioned you were going to be running Audyssey Pro on one of your submersives a little while back, that I asked you please post some REW graphs so I could compare them to my Ultras.

I will try your suggestions and report back. It will take some time for me to get in the "tweaking" mood again though.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #112 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 01:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by m-fine416 View Post

It is not all OPINION. There are technical issues governed by the laws of physics that have nothing to do with anyones opinion.

You don't understand what the issues are nor do you understand physics. Those are two hurdles for you to get over first before you start declaring 'fact'. Sorry, but it's true. Being an ass won't change that.

Regards,
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post #113 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

So it isn't possible for me to know this because I'm not you ? Right, I'm not a 'sub designer' therefore it's not possible for me to understand this. Or is it really because my views don't fit your points ? Are you suggesting now that both methods don't have their flaws or are you going to punt your particular method being the only correct one ? Because it wouldn't surprise me if you did.

Regards,

You're reading a lot more into what I posted than is there. I never made any claims either way of your ability to "know" or understand. I simply stated I disagree with what I have seen you state as the advantages of the different approaches.

I just posted above that I have used all sorts of different methods to optimize the performance of different subwoofer systems. The best approach depends on many factors, including the effort the calibrator is willing to put in. I made a recommendation a while back that I felt matching gain would be a more likely path to get good results and maximize headroom where multiple identical subwoofers were being implemented. You disagreed, and you are free to do so, just as readers of this are free to follow whatever advice they like.

I won't be around to respond here until tomorrow night as I have some speakers/subs to finish up. I'm sure we'll continue later.

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post #114 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 03:14 PM
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As someone new to the whole two subwoofers thing (my second ED-A7s-450 is coming Monday), and trying to understand the theory of coupling, here's my TL;DR take on the issue after reading this thread:

* Adding a second identical subwoofer to an in-home audio system gives you the potential for up to 6db more of output. This is called "coupling".
* In order to get optimal coupling, you have two choices.
* First, you can place the subwoofers close together. If they are closer than 1/4 the wavelength of a given frequency, that frequency will be coupled close to 6db regardless of where listeners are sitting. It therefore follows that if you crossover at 80hz (which is typical), you should place the subs less than a meter apart (center of cone to center of cone).
* Second, you can place the subwoofers anywhere you want, as long as you sit equidistant from them. In that position, output from both the subs will reach you at the same time, and couple to 6db. However, bass response for other listeners not equidistant from the subs will range from just suboptimal to terrible.

Is that a fair practical summary?
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post #115 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 03:32 PM
 
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That's weird, my post just vanished.

Regards,
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post #116 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

So it isn't possible for me to know this because I'm not you ? Right, I'm not a 'sub designer' therefore it's not possible for me to understand this. Or is it really because my views don't fit your points ? Are you suggesting now that both methods don't have their flaws or are you going to punt your particular method being the only correct one ? Because it wouldn't surprise me if you did.

Regards,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

You're reading a lot more into what I posted than is there...

What a gracious response, Mr. Seaton. Much respect to you.

Upgraditis Anonymous
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post #117 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

You don't understand what the issues are nor do you understand physics. Those are two hurdles for you to get over first before you start declaring 'fact'. Sorry, but it's true. Being an ass won't change that.

Regards,

LOL. My engineering degree didn't come from Internet forums so I am pretty sure I have a better understanding of physics than you. I will admit that I can be a pretty big ass when I want to be, but I have to admit I can't hold a candle to you in that department

If you understand the issues so well please give us a step by step on how to pull two identical subs out of the box and do a "level match" setup. Please be sure to cover what level you are matching and when and of course explain when your method will work and when it should not be used.

This ought to be funny
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post #118 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 06:46 PM
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counsil,

Where were you reading Mark's information about "preferred method of calibrating dual, non-colocated subs" from (I really hope it is not in this thread and I just missed it)? Thanks.

James
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post #119 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

Penngray and sivadselim don't dislike each other or anything. It's like me and sivadselim. It's a love/hate relationship. But we by no means hate each other. Although he can't read me that well anymore and that makes things a bit interesting.

The only other poster here who torments me is Mr Palmer. But at least he has a sense of humor, something Kal Rubinson doesn't possess. He's about as flat as a pancake.

Regards,

I do not know Siv so I have no opinion on him. Although you can see he takes online chat to a whole new level. He somehow knows me as a person and can actually make a very strange conclusion just from what I post here

For the record, I can take him in about 20 seconds and his setup SUCKS swamp water, he is like the kid we do not pick on our teams

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #120 of 249 Old 06-20-2009, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

Don't get me wrong, I like penngray (although I know the two of you aren't getting along real well right now), I just had to look into it to see if it was true

I get along with anyone, Im not a women who holds a grudge...Im best friends with a guy that I have fought FIVE times (all hockey related)

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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