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post #511 of 557 Old 04-16-2013, 11:04 AM
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I bought two boxes of OC 703 and 705 and built them myself. Each panel is 2x4-feet and 2" thick, and come six in a box. With the cost of the fabric and batting material, the wood frames and the mounting hardware, I must have paid between $450 - $600. It was certainly a project, but I'd do it again...buying these many panels factory-made can cost a small fortune.
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post #512 of 557 Old 04-16-2013, 11:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

I bought two boxes of OC 703 and 705 and built them myself. Each panel is 2x4-feet and 2" thick, and come six in a box. With the cost of the fabric and batting material, the wood frames and the mounting hardware, I must have paid between $450 - $600. It was certainly a project, but I'd do it again...buying these many panels factory-made can cost a small fortune.

Thanks for the response on what you spent on the sound panels.

The purpose of the question is to compare pricing between room treatments that are off the table of wife approval and the price of a miniDSP, with programming module as I find Audyssey does terrible things with what our subs produce when Audyssey EQ's the results provided to it after DSPeaker's Anti-Mode is run.

The problem I find with Anti-Mode, the end user is "STUCK" with whatever Audyssey chooses to do with Anti-Mode's solution as prior to the AVR, Anti-Mode creates a separate signal, sidestepping Audyssey's provided signal signature in the process so after Anti-Mode is run, what ever Audyssey comes up as a solution, as a consumer, with the exception of available controls (phase, gain, levels, et cetera) we're stuck with that solution.

Below is a with and without Audyssey graph. The red line is with Audyssey turned off and the blue line is with Audyssey turned on and as one should easily be able to see, Audyssey does terrible things to the general shape of the EQ graph results.



So based on your comment about the price of home assembled room treatments, compared to the price of a miniDSP, the miniDSP has cost benefit and much higher WAF.


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post #513 of 557 Old 04-16-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks for the response on what you spent on the sound panels.

The purpose of the question is to compare pricing between room treatments that are off the table of wife approval and the price of a miniDSP, with programming module as I find Audyssey does terrible things with what our subs produce when Audyssey EQ's the results provided to it after DSPeaker's Anti-Mode is run.

The problem I find with Anti-Mode, the end user is "STUCK" with whatever Audyssey chooses to do with Anti-Mode's solution as prior to the AVR, Anti-Mode creates a separate signal, sidestepping Audyssey's provided signal signature in the process so after Anti-Mode is run, what ever Audyssey comes up as a solution, as a consumer, with the exception of available controls (phase, gain, levels, et cetera) we're stuck with that solution.

Below is a with and without Audyssey graph. The red line is with Audyssey turned off and the blue line is with Audyssey turned on and as one should easily be able to see, Audyssey does terrible things to the general shape of the EQ graph results.



So based on your comment about the price of home assembled room treatments, compared to the price of a miniDSP, the miniDSP has cost benefit and much higher WAF.


-

so why would you recomend me to swap avrs with a audyssey unit when it does that to your graph? by the looks i would be much better off using the yamahas 7 band eq for the 5 channels and a mini dsp to eq the subs.
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With Audyssey XT32, it does a much better EQ'g job and doesn't stomp all over Anti-Mode. Due to how reportedly good XT32 is, one doesn't need Anti-Mode so there's no conflict with Anti-Mode.. You originally asked about changing up to XT32. I don't recall you asking about the miniDSP in the conversation. Doesn't mean you didn't ask, if you did, it only means that I don't remember you asking.

I'm like everybody else here as we all learn how all these fancy gizmos interact with each other. One person tells us the Anti-Mode is the "Cat's Meow" and then, despite best efforts, one finds out it's not as efficient as the other had said. Then someone comes along and swears that I'm an idiot and I must be doing something wrong and so I do what they say and nada but fail. And the next person comes along and says I can't do that as I find success doing what they say I can't do. And then I have conversations with others where pieces of information are forgotten or left out and then I'm asked, why would I suggest what I suggest?

The way I understand it, based on what others have posted, the BFD and XT + Anti-Mode are equal with the Anti-Mode being automatic setup and the BFD being manual setup. Next, XT32 is better than XT + Anti-Mode. Next, the miniDSP + REW and one's AVR EQ program is better than the anything else happening. In the meantime, room treatments have their place and based on one's decor, will depend on their acceptability factor being integrated into a room and how well they help with one's room acoustics. And in the end, it's all a crap-shoot as nobody can say with a degree of certainty how in the end, things are going measure at a person's main listening position when compared to that of open plane test results..

Based on what you posted, I did my best to respond to your posted question regarding the returning of your Yamaha and purchasing a replacement Onkyo 818 with XT32 installed. At this point sufficient time has passed, has the return window closed? Is the Onkyo, 818 on it's way?

As to my position, I can't return and upgrade to a XT32 capable AVR so I've added the Anti-Mode and based on a couple of months and about a thousand dollars worth of effort, in the near future, Im looking to acquire a miniDSP and see how well that works. No guarantees for me. In the short, I'm paying for my education as I've learned that much of what we do is trial and error as opposed to simple plug-n-play.

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post #515 of 557 Old 04-16-2013, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

So based on your comment about the price of home assembled room treatments, compared to the price of a miniDSP, the miniDSP has cost benefit and much higher WAF.
-

IMHO, EQ + room treatment is the way to go.
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post #516 of 557 Old 04-16-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

With Audyssey XT32, it does a much better EQ'g job and doesn't stomp all over Anti-Mode. Due to how reportedly good XT32 is, one doesn't need Anti-Mode so there's no conflict with Anti-Mode.. You originally asked about changing up to XT32. I don't recall you asking about the miniDSP in the conversation. Doesn't mean you didn't ask, if you did, it only means that I don't remember you asking.

I'm like everybody else here as we all learn how all these fancy gizmos interact with each other. One person tells us the Anti-Mode is the "Cat's Meow" and then, despite best efforts, one finds out it's not as efficient as the other had said. Then someone comes along and swears that I'm an idiot and I must be doing something wrong and so I do what they say and nada but fail. And the next person comes along and says I can't do that as I find success doing what they say I can't do. And then I have conversations with others where pieces of information are forgotten or left out and then I'm asked, why would I suggest what I suggest?

The way I understand it, based on what others have posted, the BFD and XT + Anti-Mode are equal with the Anti-Mode being automatic setup and the BFD being manual setup. Next, XT32 is better than XT + Anti-Mode. Next, the miniDSP + REW and one's AVR EQ program is better than the anything else happening. In the meantime, room treatments have their place and based on one's decor, will depend on their acceptability factor being integrated into a room and how well they help with one's room acoustics. And in the end, it's all a crap-shoot as nobody can say with a degree of certainty how in the end, things are going measure at a person's main listening position when compared to that of open plane test results..

Based on what you posted, I did my best to respond to your posted question regarding the returning of your Yamaha and purchasing a replacement Onkyo 818 with XT32 installed. At this point sufficient time has passed, has the return window closed? Is the Onkyo, 818 on it's way?

As to my position, I can't return and upgrade to a XT32 capable AVR so I've added the Anti-Mode and based on a couple of months and about a thousand dollars worth of effort, in the near future, Im looking to acquire a miniDSP and see how well that works. No guarantees for me. In the short, I'm paying for my education as I've learned that much of what we do is trial and error as opposed to simple plug-n-play.

-


ahh I see...thanks for taking the time to clarify those things. I can still return the yamaha but im not sure I want to give it up for a Onkyo.
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post #517 of 557 Old 04-16-2013, 04:18 PM
 
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Then, in my opinion, based on personal experience, your next best bet, since you're already familiar with the basics of REW, after exhausting all normal efforts at using subwoofer/AVR based controls to build a decent graph, with appropriate module, it would be time to order up a copy of a miniDSP and see what type of graph you're able to come up with. Again, it's all a crap-shoot with no guarantees. Oh lucky us.
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post #518 of 557 Old 04-16-2013, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Then, in my opinion, based on personal experience, your next best bet, since you're already familiar with the basics of REW, after exhausting all normal efforts at using subwoofer/AVR based controls to build a decent graph, with appropriate module, it would be time to order up a copy of a miniDSP and see what type of graph you're able to come up with. Again, it's all a crap-shoot with no guarantees. Oh lucky us.

yea mini dsp is next but i believe i can get a decent grap, just need more time.
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post #519 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 11:13 AM
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REW shows Anti-Mode and Audyssey MultEQ XT32 don't play well together in my system. Notice the spike in the low range in the pic. If I run Audyssey alone, the midrange and highs are smoothed out a bit, but the peak is barely reduced. If I use the Anti-Mode 8033S-II separately, this cuts the peak substantially. But when I use Audyssey and Anti-Mode together, the peak is back.

I'm sure someone has figured a way these two can work together. Can you share your set up? The way I did it, I ran the main calibration with Anti-Mode first. Then, I did the Audyssey full calibration. Here is pic showing the results. All measurements are for the left speaker only.


Green = FR with no room correction
Red = FR with Audyssey and Anti-Mode ON
Blue = FR running Anti-Mode only



Edit: I have an Onyko 818 AVR
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post #520 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

REW shows Anti-Mode and Audyssey MultEQ XT32 don't play well together in my system. Notice the spike in the low range in the pic. If I run Audyssey alone, the midrange and highs are smoothed out a bit, but the peak is barely reduced. If I use the Anti-Mode 8033S-II separately, this cuts the peak substantially. But when I use Audyssey and Anti-Mode together, the peak is back.

I'm sure someone has figured a way these two can work together. Can you share your set up? The way I did it, I ran the main calibration with Anti-Mode first. Then, I did the Audyssey full calibration. Here is pic showing the results. All measurements are for the left speaker only.


Green = FR with no room correction
Red = FR with Audyssey and Anti-Mode ON
Blue = FR running Anti-Mode only

For the Red curve, did you run Audyssey first or did you run Anti-Mode first?  It makes a difference.


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post #521 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 04:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

It makes a difference.

Allow me the sarcasm of experience; not to Audyssey.



The gold line is w/Audyssey, Anti-Mode calibration was run first and then a full Audyssey calibration run second. This after the gain was set with sound level meter. I like how Audyssey has one idea how things should be, different from how Anti-Mode thinks how things should be.

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post #522 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 05:19 PM
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Thats interesting - but how does using XT32 by itself compare with using the antimode by itself? I'm wondering why the combination of the two EQ methods is causing the problem - you would assume that the combined result would be flatter.

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post #523 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 05:20 PM
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Allow me the sarcasm of experience; not to Audyssey.



The gold line is w/Audyssey, Anti-Mode calibration was run first and then a full Audyssey calibration run second. This after the gain was set with sound level meter. I like how Audyssey has one idea how things should be, different from how Anti-Mode thinks how things should be.
-

Not sure what you mean in your first line but that is horrible (assuming you are referring the line with suck-out at 85Hz.  (I am color-blind.)  Suggests a phase-cancellation.


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post #524 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 05:35 PM
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Not sure what you mean in your first line but that is horrible (assuming you are referring the line with suck-out at 85Hz.  (I am color-blind.)  Suggests a phase-cancellation.

thats his point lol...audyssey and anti-mode dont mix.
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post #525 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 06:47 PM
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thats his point lol...audyssey and anti-mode dont mix.

That is apparent but I would still like to see the two different orders of EQ done/compared.


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post #526 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

For the Red curve, did you run Audyssey first or did you run Anti-Mode first?  It makes a difference.

I ran Anti-Mode first, for all curves.

Edit: I remember now I did run Audyssey Quick Start before the Anti-Mode and Audyssey Full Calibration. I was a bit disappointed with Quick Start and that made me connect the Anti-Mode device before running XT32. I'll restart the whole process tomorrow.
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post #527 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 08:05 PM
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Thats interesting - but how does using XT32 by itself compare with using the antimode by itself? I'm wondering why the combination of the two EQ methods is causing the problem - you would assume that the combined result would be flatter.

I've only had the AVR a few days, so I'm not sure I have Audyssey set up for best response, yet. Others here seem to be using it with Anti-Mode without any problems.
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post #528 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 08:50 PM
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Why do you need Antimode when XT32 has similar good bass EQ (lots of filters for all channels)?
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post #529 of 557 Old 04-23-2013, 10:44 PM
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I'm trying to use Anti-Mode and Audyssey together, because I'm not getting good results with Audyssey below 100 Hz.
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post #530 of 557 Old 04-24-2013, 09:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Not sure what you mean in your first line but that is horrible (assuming you are referring the line with suck-out at 85Hz.  (I am color-blind.)  Suggests a phase-cancellation.

The line with the suck-out is the gold line or the combined, Anti-Mode plus Audyssey, MultEQ XT.

Next time I break away from the current distraction, learning how to detailing the wife's car, I'll play with the phase control to see what's what with what regarding phase-cancellation.

I've played extensively with phase but not independently with Audyssey engaged. I'll run each sub (we have three) independently of the others, see what changes take place and go from there as to what shows itself but I'll look specifically to "phase" as the culprit for that glaring suck-out.

(Thanks for the phase idea)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Why do you need Antimode when XT32 has similar good bass EQ (lots of filters for all channels)?

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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

I'm trying to use Anti-Mode and Audyssey together, because I'm not getting good results with Audyssey below 100 Hz.

Before I make any changes here are a few more graphs showing the problem I am having with Audyssey. All measurements are left speaker at 80 dBs, with 1/6 smoothing. Crossover set to 100 Hz.

Audyssey alone (Anti-Mode in bypass mode)


Anti-Mode and Audyssey together


Anti-Mode alone (Audyssey turned off in AVR)


All three traces together


I should simply stick with Anti-Mode and leave Audyssey off, but I like the roll off at the top using Audyssey.
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post #532 of 557 Old 04-24-2013, 11:43 AM
 
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In our case, unfortunately, the higher end sounds better with, than without Audyssey. How about your system?

A suggestion, when using just Anti-Mode, use the AVR provided EQ to bring up the null a few dB as I would expect you to have an EQ slider at 125Hz.
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post #533 of 557 Old 04-24-2013, 01:51 PM
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Thanks for the suggestion. I agree, my system sounds much better with Audyssey rolling off the higher end, especially with my back wall only two feet behind me and those sound waves rebounding around my head. I wish I could recreate that part of the curve using manual EQ, but the filters aren't broad enough and there are too few. This is the best I can do without the top end getting all choppy.

Thankfully, moving the left speaker closer to the wall removed most of the null around 150 Hz. (I got that tip from the Simplified REW thread).

Green = FR with Anti-Mode only
Red = FR with left speaker closer to the front wall and slight EQ adjustments at 2.5, 6.3 and 16 kHz.

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post #534 of 557 Old 05-25-2013, 02:06 PM
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So is it the general consensus that if you have XT32 then an antimode isn't needed?

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post #535 of 557 Old 05-25-2013, 02:34 PM
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Ill find out soon. I just bought an 818. Ill let you know. If so there will be an antimode for sale soon smile.gif

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post #536 of 557 Old 05-31-2013, 08:57 PM
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Ill find out soon. I just bought an 818. Ill let you know. If so there will be an anti mode for sale soon smile.gif
I would wait before you sell the Anti-Mode, i wish i dint sell it to you(i don't mean that in a bad way), its just that im not to fond of XT-32 with my system, it sounds to bright, if you do sell it shoot me a PM.THANKS

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post #537 of 557 Old 06-02-2013, 09:19 PM
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I was thinking about getting a 8033 for my home theater. I'm running a pioneer elite sc-35 with a BIC acoustech pl-200 sub. Has anyone used the 8033 with that sub? Do you guys think I'd hear a noticeable improvement?

Thanks smile.gif

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post #538 of 557 Old 06-16-2013, 12:53 AM
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Do you guys redo the Antimode sweep setup if a car pass by your house or someone using a lawnmower from afar (not producing bass frequency though)?
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post #539 of 557 Old 06-16-2013, 04:47 AM
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Nope. The antimode will make the tones louder if need be. But in general is VERY tolerant of ambient noise

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post #540 of 557 Old 06-16-2013, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by simple man View Post

I was thinking about getting a 8033 for my home theater. I'm running a pioneer elite sc-35 with a BIC acoustech pl-200 sub. Has anyone used the 8033 with that sub? Do you guys think I'd hear a noticeable improvement?

Thanks smile.gif

Anti Mode works great with Pioneers. Pioneer only go down to 63 hz in bass and the Anti Mode will get you down to 16 hz if your room supports it.
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Dual Submersive HP's


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