MFW-15 w/ new July 2009 amps <absolutely NO AV123 or MLS bashing/negativity!!> - Page 19 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-24-2009, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by freakyshiat View Post

my dual mfws came in, they sound absolutely great, everything from the time the order was placed to delivery was perfect. I have a SVS pc13 ultra and also a pb12-plus/2. Anyway, both subs have a slight hum, it actually goes away if i 'touch' the amp on the back. Just putting my hand on the amp makes the hum go away. How do i fix this?

Good Morning...

Please try using some Ground Lifts (Cheater Plugs) on one or both of the subs...

If I can help in any way... please feel free to call me at ext 301 at the office...

877.543.7500

All the best...

mls

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Old 08-24-2009, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mesojdm View Post

quick question..
just moving into a new house and the wall power, overhead lights etc are all off one circuit(15A circuit breaker) Will 2 MFW-15's be ok ona 15A?? All my electronics will be on the same circuit as well. should I be worried and upgrade to a 20, 25A?
thanks!!

Good Morning...

Should be OK - but I would love for you to have that "20" if possible... I went a step further and went for two dedicated 30's in my Sound Room at home... I did this for my Classe amps I loved...

Do you have access to some separate AC wall outlets?

Best as always...

mls

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Old 08-24-2009, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by buckythx View Post

Hello,
I'm new to this thread, so please forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere. I have dual MFW-15's now and I'm thinking of moving my system to a larger room and running quads. Does anyone have experience with this? I have a splitter coming out of my AVR's sub output. How would I hook up 4? Is it okay to use 2 splitters? I've had ground loop issues in the past and I'm worried about introducing 2 more subs into the equation. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Good Morning...

I have run splitters myself - and had no issues with this...

Ground Loops are always a bit of an issue - please be ready with some Ground Lifts and you should be just fine...

Many thanks...

mls

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Old 08-24-2009, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

Good Morning...

Please try using some Ground Lifts (Cheater Plugs) on one or both of the subs...

If I can help in any way... please feel free to call me at ext 301 at the office...

877.543.7500

All the best...

mls

thank you mark, where do I buy these cheater plugs from? Since this seems to solve the issue for so many, maybe you should consider including them in the box? Just an idea
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by freakyshiat View Post

thank you mark, where do I buy these cheater plugs from? Since this seems to solve the issue for so many, maybe you should consider including them in the box? Just an idea

... and a really good idea it is.

You can buy these at Home Depot or Lowes - or really any local hardware... The look like this...



About 75 cents to $1 dollar (usually)...

All the best...

mls

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Old 08-24-2009, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

Good Morning...

Should be OK - but I would love for you to have that "20" if possible... I went a step further and went for two dedicated 30's in my Sound Room at home... I did this for my Classe amps I loved...

Do you have access to some separate AC wall outlets?

Best as always...

mls

...and....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

... and a really good idea it is.

You can buy these at Home Depot or Lowes - or really any local hardware... The look like this...



About 75 cents to $1 dollar (usually)...

All the best...

mls

Okay, Mark you are great and helpful guy but this advice is just wrong

First, 2 MFW-15s will NEVER ever pop the 15 Amp circuit so to recommend people go overkill is just plane silly and bad advice from a owner the company that sells the subs.

I have 20 amp circuits and I have a FACE F1200TS, Sunfire Cinema Grand, Denon 2809...Just those alone have more Watts then you can image about 10x more then what those 2 MFW-15s have. Conclusion, One 15 or 20 amp circuit can handle split second HUGE power requirements.

Second, while using a cheater plug is a good way to find out what the hum problem is. It isnt wise again for the owner of the company that sells the subs to advise it only. Seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen (I would never do it but you never know!). Just one person needs to have a problem then they can go back on you saying you said it was okay.


Cheater plugs remove the ground and that isnt a good thing Now, to be honest I have used one in the past so Im not against it I just worry about you advising it.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:11 AM
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Not only is the use of cheater plugs contrary to NEC's sensible grounding guidelines but to publicly recommend their use, contrary to these guideline, on a device with a history of electrical problems just isn't a wise thing to do.
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

...and....



Okay, Mark you are great and helpful guy but this advice is just wrong

First, 2 MFW-15s will NEVER ever pop the 15 Amp circuit so to recommend people go overkill is just plane silly and bad advice from a owner the company that sells the subs.

I have 20 amp circuits and I have a FACE F1200TS, Sunfire Cinema Grand, Denon 2809...Just those alone have more Watts then you can image about 10x more then what those 2 MFW-15s have. Conclusion, One 15 or 20 amp circuit can handle split second HUGE power requirements.

Second, while using a cheater plug is a good way to find out what the hum problem is. It isnt wise again for the owner of the company that sells the subs to advise it only. Seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen (I would never do it but you never know!). Just one person needs to have a problem then they can go back on you saying you said it was okay.


Cheater plugs remove the ground and that isnt a good thing Now, to be honest I have used one in the past so Im not against it I just worry about you advising it.

Good post...

Here's the thing... we can surely circumvent a lot of this by simply shipping IEC to 2-Wire cord sets... We don't do that... Some find that 3-Wire work fine - others use 2-Wire...

I personally know of many manufacturers making amps (high power too boot) that ship with 2-Wire...

Some are of the opinion that lifting the ground would be (is) harmful... I'm not in that camp - and I have taken the time to talk with dozens of end-users to explain how to find and "complete" the ground... Many houses are not made correctly in this regard - or better - are not made to follow ALL the rules properly...

Depending on what further he may have on the 15 amp line lets look at it this way... Our new amp is capable of 650 watt peaks - the inrush current is SUBSTANTIAL now... Even if we are running at 80-ish % efficient - that means we can talk about 750 to 800 watts (right - or is my math bad)... take 2 of those... that looks a lot like 1500 ++ watts to me...

A solid 120 volts (most are not as we both know) and taking 15AMPS and that runs us pretty close to the MAX WATTS of 1800... This seems pretty close to me... As well, there's still inrush current to consider...

Unless I've jumbled my math...

All the best...

mls

Founder and President
av123 / Rocket Loudspeakers
Perpetual Technologies
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Not only is the use of cheater plugs contrary to NEC's sensible grounding guidelines but to publicly recommend their use, contrary to these guideline, on a device with a history of electrical problems just isn't a wise thing to do.

Appreciate your opinion...

All the best...

mls

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Perpetual Technologies
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

Good post...

Here's the thing... we can surely circumvent a lot of this by simply shipping IEC to 2-Wire cord sets... We don't do that... Some find that 3-Wire work fine - others use 2-Wire...

I personally know of many manufacturers making amps (high power too boot) that ship with 2-Wire...

Some are of the opinion that lifting the ground would be (is) harmful... I'm not in that camp - and I have taken the time to talk with dozens of end-users to explain how to find and "complete" the ground... Many houses are not made correctly in this regard - or better - are not made to follow ALL the rules properly...

Depending on what further he may have on the 15 amp line lets look at it this way... Our new amp is capable of 650 watt peaks - the inrush current is SUBSTANTIAL now... Even if we are running at 80-ish % efficient - that means we can talk about 750 to 800 watts (right - or is my math bad)... take 2 of those... that looks a lot like 1500 ++ watts to me...

A solid 120 volts (most are not as we both know) and taking 15AMPS and that runs us pretty close to the MAX WATTS of 1800... This seems pretty close to me... As well, there's still inrush current to consider...

Unless I've jumbled my math...

All the best...

mls

But he has the magical 20amp circuit that is running 10x more watts then the subs put out. Can't we just use that 20amp breaker that can sub-stain a 125 amp load like his
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Skimanfz1 View Post

I have quad MFW15s and use 3 Y splitters with no hum issues. First splitter divides the LF signal into two, then the next two divide the signal into four. Be sure there is enough room, it will be tight. Also be sure to fully insert each cable into each splitter (don't ask how I know this).

By the way, I run four subs not so much for sheer volume, but to help equalize the LFE signal at all seating positions. Mine are positioned at four (almost) equidisdant locations from the front row center sweet spot. Plus, I got a killer deal on them.

Thanks for the reply! I noticed a big difference going from 1 to 2. I'm hoping 4 will even things out, as you said. More bass never hurts, either! Did you have to adjust (increase) the output level of the sub on your AVR when you hooked up 4?
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Not only is the use of cheater plugs contrary to NEC's sensible grounding guidelines but to publicly recommend their use, contrary to these guideline, on a device with a history of electrical problems just isn't a wise thing to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

Appreciate your opinion...

All the best...

mls

From Epanorama we have...

Quote:


Breaking of ground loop can be done in many ways, some which are better and some are less good.


Dangerous method: break the mains ground connections
Logically you could think, you could eliminate ground loops by disconnecting the power-cord ground pins on all your gear. Some people might try to break the ground connection by cutting the grounding pin in the connector, using cheater plug, cutting the ground wire in equipment, taping over the grounding connector etc.

Do not do this. Removing the ground connection isn't right. It is against electrical safety regulations and potentially very dangerous. Removing ground connection can defeat the actions of your noise filter or spike protectors inside the equipments. If the ground connection is cut then a fault in the isulation inside equipment will cause dangerous voltages to the equipment case instead of burning a fuse. Removing the ground connection from the equipments which have it is dangerous, against electronic safety regulations and you risk damaging your equipment. Running without a power ground will not automatically electrocute you but will make this much more propable if something goes wrong in your system.

NEVER use a three wire to two wire adapter on ANY piece of audio gear where a human can POSSIBLY come into contact with it. You're asking for a nice 120v "signal" thru someone's body. Yes it MIGHT eliminate the hum, but there's a MUCH safer way to do the same thing.

If Hughman's post above is an opinion, it's a well reasoned opinion based scientific considerations and respect for electricity as well as human safety. Is yours based upon something equally as compelling?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 08-24-2009, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by buckythx View Post

Thanks for the reply! I noticed a big difference going from 1 to 2. I'm hoping 4 will even things out, as you said. More bass never hurts, either! Did you have to adjust (increase) the output level of the sub on your AVR when you hooked up 4?

I bought and connected all four subs at the same time, rather than adding a couple more to an existing pair as you will be. Previously, I had a pair of SVS PB12 Ultras (which I need to sell, by the way), so compared to those, the LF output level from my prepro was reduced (4 15s output vs 2 12s). But they are different subs, with different settings, etc.
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Old 08-24-2009, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by buckythx View Post

Thanks for the reply! I noticed a big difference going from 1 to 2. I'm hoping 4 will even things out, as you said. More bass never hurts, either! Did you have to adjust (increase) the output level of the sub on your AVR when you hooked up 4?

It's usually the opposite. When you add more subs you increase you're output thus it's reduces you're sub level in you're AVR after running setup.
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Old 08-24-2009, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

From Epanorama we have...



If Hughman's post above is an opinion, it's a well reasoned opinion based scientific considerations and respect for electricity as well as human safety. Is yours based upon something equally as compelling?

Not really... just my personal experience... There are several good products out there that can and will do a wonderful job at helping this along... Ground Loops are common in many systems - and in each case there are reasons why they exist...

I have used these Ground Lifts (simplest) and have gone as far as to use more complicated devices (fixes) to also eliminate hum...

My comments about amp makers shipping with 2-Wire are accurate... and I understand why they go this route at times.

Thanks...

mls

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Old 08-24-2009, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

Not only is the use of cheater plugs contrary to NEC's sensible grounding guidelines but to publicly recommend their use, contrary to these guideline, on a device with a history of electrical problems just isn't a wise thing to do.

What about all the electronic gear and electrical appliances that use 2 prongs? I guess all the makers of such devices are completely irresponsible and want you to die in a horrible electrical accident. Give me a break.
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Old 08-24-2009, 10:02 PM
 
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I have a 52" XBR4/Emo XPA-5/Pio Elite/PS3/Marantz CD/HD8300 and (3) MFW-15's running on a 15AMP circuit. I have been to insane levels without a hitch. When I move into a nice big new place in a couple of years I will have 20AMP circuits to run my amps, but for now , I'm straight. Sometimes doing too much reading on these boards is a bad thing. Getting dudes to come into your pad and start slapping down 20AMP circuits for a single MFW is the same as you buying $8,000 3ft RCA interconnects.

PS- MLS, driver came in for the MFW that was injured.....perfection my friend.
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Old 08-25-2009, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

What about all the electronic gear and electrical appliances that use 2 prongs? I guess all the makers of such devices are completely irresponsible and want you to die in a horrible electrical accident. Give me a break.

As far as I know equipment utilizing two pronged polarized plugs require a "double insulation" design providing a basic and supplemental level of electrical insulation. Devices using polarized plugs are also wired so the switch cuts the live live wire when in the off position which further prevents a potential shock hazard of the device being live when off.

There's no doubt a few would forgo the safety of you and your family for profit hence one of the reasons standards were developed.
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Old 08-25-2009, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Riffmeister View Post

What about all the electronic gear and electrical appliances that use 2 prongs? I guess all the makers of such devices are completely irresponsible and want you to die in a horrible electrical accident. Give me a break.

Not the same thing at all......there is a reason some electronics as a 3-prong plug and some electronics has two prong plugs. Its not because someone flipped a coin in the factory to decide if the ground plug should be added!

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Old 08-25-2009, 03:17 AM
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Getting dudes to come into your pad and start slapping down 20AMP circuits for a single MFW is the same as you buying $8,000 3ft RCA interconnects.

You should know MLS has expensive interconnects

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Old 08-25-2009, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark L. Schifter View Post

Good post...

Here's the thing... we can surely circumvent a lot of this by simply shipping IEC to 2-Wire cord sets... We don't do that... Some find that 3-Wire work fine - others use 2-Wire...

I personally know of many manufacturers making amps (high power too boot) that ship with 2-Wire...

Some are of the opinion that lifting the ground would be (is) harmful... I'm not in that camp - and I have taken the time to talk with dozens of end-users to explain how to find and "complete" the ground... Many houses are not made correctly in this regard - or better - are not made to follow ALL the rules properly...

Depending on what further he may have on the 15 amp line lets look at it this way... Our new amp is capable of 650 watt peaks - the inrush current is SUBSTANTIAL now... Even if we are running at 80-ish % efficient - that means we can talk about 750 to 800 watts (right - or is my math bad)... take 2 of those... that looks a lot like 1500 ++ watts to me...

A solid 120 volts (most are not as we both know) and taking 15AMPS and that runs us pretty close to the MAX WATTS of 1800... This seems pretty close to me... As well, there's still inrush current to consider...

Unless I've jumbled my math...

All the best...

mls

Yes, the 3-prong vs 2-prong thing is sometimes annoying and I have amps that have 2-prongs (Sunfire!!). I was posting just commenting on you recommending a cheater plug isnt a good idea since you own the company that sells the subwoofer. Its a risk in my opinion to post that kind of advice. Its a lot different then some unknown like me saying "I use the cheater plug with success, Im aware of the electrical issues and I could even get electrocuted"


Your Watts calc is fine! A 15amp circuit can produce fair greater amps for split seconds so its incorrect to say that a 15 amp circuit will only product MAX 1800Watts. Of course you are 100% correct that if someone is running 1800Watts continuously then that someone needs bigger circuits. Who is running 1800Watts continously?? I have 6000Watts available on a 20 amp circuit myself.

you also raise a valid point with asking what else is on that 15 amp line, I made an assumption we are just talking about Audio stuff like a couple amps, AVR, CD player, BlueRay. where 99% of the time they are running maybe 2 or 3 amps off the circuit. People just need to add a "Killawatt" device to see how little amperage they use for 99% of the time, its only the peaks that matter.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by crOwcaine View Post

I have a 52" XBR4/Emo XPA-5/Pio Elite/PS3/Marantz CD/HD8300 and (3) MFW-15's running on a 15AMP circuit. I have been to insane levels without a hitch. When I move into a nice big new place in a couple of years I will have 20AMP circuits to run my amps, but for now , I'm straight. Sometimes doing too much reading on these boards is a bad thing. Getting dudes to come into your pad and start slapping down 20AMP circuits for a single MFW is the same as you buying $8,000 3ft RCA interconnects.

PS- MLS, driver came in for the MFW that was injured.....perfection my friend.

Cool...

We are also running a TON of stuff in the office in our 15AMP service and no problems at all... works great in fact...

Good to hear that the driver arrived in good order... thank you...

All the best...

mls

Founder and President
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Perpetual Technologies
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You should know MLS has expensive interconnects

Ha... touche...

Good stuff...

My ONIX interconnects are very good and so are the ones we are also selling now... Not expensive...

Good Morning --- and all the best...

mls

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Old 08-25-2009, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Yes, the 3-prong vs 2-prong thing is sometimes annoying and I have amps that have 2-prongs (Sunfire!!). I was posting just commenting on you recommending a cheater plug isnt a good idea since you own the company that sells the subwoofer. Its a risk in my opinion to post that kind of advice. Its a lot different then some unknown like me saying "I use the cheater plug with success, Im aware of the electrical issues and I could even get electrocuted"


Your Watts calc is fine! A 15amp circuit can produce fair greater amps for split seconds so its incorrect to say that a 15 amp circuit will only product MAX 1800Watts. Of course you are 100% correct that if someone is running 1800Watts continuously then that someone needs bigger circuits. Who is running 1800Watts continously?? I have 6000Watts available on a 20 amp circuit myself.

you also raise a valid point with asking what else is on that 15 amp line, I made an assumption we are just talking about Audio stuff like a couple amps, AVR, CD player, BlueRay. where 99% of the time they are running maybe 2 or 3 amps off the circuit. People just need to add a "Killawatt" device to see how little amperage they use for 99% of the time, its only the peaks that matter.

Good Morning Again...

I thought about this last night between runs to Target and WalMart (my Granddaughter started University yesterday - and we are the official Dorm Suppliers... )...

I would have to say that posting my "experiences" was perhaps not my finest moment - so instead of recommending these I have to decided to call an old buddy in LA today and ask if he would help me develop something safer for recommendation that's reliable, affordable and SAFE...

I have some experience with this business (Exact Power in the early days - and of course PS Audio where we helped launch The Power Plant) so maybe I need to be a tad smarter and "do something about it"...

That's what I'm going to do today...

I use these Lifts myself - but with that said - there needs to be a better way...

Agreed...

I'm glad to know my math was OK - and you are also perfectly correct in mentioning that no one is running 1800 watts "continuous"...

Good stuff...

All the best...

mark

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av123 / Rocket Loudspeakers
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

There's no doubt a few would forgo the safety of you and your family for profit hence one of the reasons standards were developed.

Can you give me one example in the entire history of the word where someone used a cheater plug on a subwoofer and was electrocuted? Yes, the third prong is there for a reason, but your chances of something going terribly wrong if you bypass the electrical ground is somewhere below a jet falling on your house.
I will agree that the best course of action is to eliminate the ground loops in your system, I personally avoid them and don't use cheater plugs, but it seems that many people are unable to eliminate them without such measures.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by buckythx View Post

Hello,
I'm new to this thread, so please forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere. I have dual MFW-15's now and I'm thinking of moving my system to a larger room and running quads. Does anyone have experience with this? I have a splitter coming out of my AVR's sub output. How would I hook up 4? Is it okay to use 2 splitters? I've had ground loop issues in the past and I'm worried about introducing 2 more subs into the equation. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

yup you got it. use 2 splitters...(actually you'll need 3) but you'll be fine.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:58 AM
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Ha... touche...

Good stuff...

My ONIX interconnects are very good and so are the ones we are also selling now... Not expensive...

Good Morning --- and all the best...

mls



Just busting on you a little

I think all the seriousness some days gets the best of all of us.

Have a good one yourself Mark!

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Old 08-25-2009, 07:01 AM
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Good Morning Again...

I thought about this last night between runs to Target and WalMart (my Granddaughter started University yesterday - and we are the official Dorm Suppliers... )...

I would have to say that posting my "experiences" was perhaps not my finest moment - so instead of recommending these I have to decided to call an old buddy in LA today and ask if he would help me develop something safer for recommendation that's reliable, affordable and SAFE...

I have some experience with this business (Exact Power in the early days - and of course PS Audio where we helped launch The Power Plant) so maybe I need to be a tad smarter and "do something about it"...

That's what I'm going to do today...

mark

Very cool!

What is interesting is that I have some pro amps that have a Ground lift switches on them. Ie. the FACE amps have the switch.

Also I have owned about every hum solution known online from exspensive power conditioners to weird and silly little boxes that say "Hum reducer".

I also own the "Hum-x" plug


Hey it works, it has 3 prongs on each end, Im sure it just disconnects the ground inside.

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Old 08-25-2009, 07:20 AM
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Penn...money you've got! In the sake of science, whip out the camera and take pics as you disassemble it. If you're right you're right. If you're wrong we'll all learn something. All you've got to do is skip on one private dance

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Old 08-25-2009, 07:24 AM
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Penn...money you've got! In the sake of science, whip out the camera and take pics as you disassemble it. If you're right you're right. If you're wrong we'll all learn something. All you've got to do is skip on one private dance

You know me too well (except no money any more with two kids!! :eek) but private dances are $40 per song now days $150 for 1/2 hour

If I find it I will take it apart

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