new ED A7s-650 - 1300 watt dual 13's - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 304 Old 07-21-2009, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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looks like the same thing they are selling as a DIY kit.

i just got an email from ED and this was part of the email. just thought i'd share.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...roducts_id=891

should be a beast.

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post #2 of 304 Old 07-21-2009, 02:05 PM
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Looks great. Should be exciting to read impressions from someone who has done the DIY or buys one of these.
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post #3 of 304 Old 07-21-2009, 03:58 PM
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Ive been exchanging emails with a guy at ED. #1 these guys know what they are doing, I have been very impressed with the technical level this guy has been talking at. Ive never owed an ED subwoofer but this new a7s-650 is going on my short list of subwoofers to consider.

The 650 is small and it does about as much as one could possibly get from such a small box.
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post #4 of 304 Old 07-21-2009, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleATheater View Post

Looks great. Should be exciting to read impressions from someone who has done the DIY or buys one of these.

Would be nice to see a compairson between both.. See if there is any difference between them both, if so, what is it, as well as, which one is better??

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post #5 of 304 Old 07-21-2009, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Ive been exchanging emails with a guy at ED. #1 these guys know what they are doing, I have been very impressed with the technical level this guy has been talking at. Ive never owed an ED subwoofer but this new a7s-650 is going on my short list of subwoofers to consider.

The 650 is small and it does about as much as one could possibly get from such a small box.

What do you mean by small? The box is 38" long and weighs 215lbs.
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post #6 of 304 Old 07-21-2009, 09:32 PM
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small footprint maybe?

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post #7 of 304 Old 07-21-2009, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

small footprint maybe?

Yes mostly that but it is still fairly small IMO anyways, with the volume around 5 cu.ft. . Big ones IMO are like the a7-450 @ around 16 cu.ft. and the a7-900 which is close to 20 cu.ft.
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post #8 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

small footprint maybe?

16" x 16" is the footprint without the grille. The grille adds one inch to the front, so it becomes 17" x 16".
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post #9 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Yes mostly that but it is still fairly small IMO anyways, with the volume around 5 cu.ft. . Big ones IMO are like the a7-450 @ around 16 cu.ft. and the a7-900 which is close to 20 cu.ft.


They're sealed subs (2x13") so of course the enclosure is going to be smaller than a dual 18" ported sub...
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post #10 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 09:46 AM
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Man this maybe for me a poormans Gotham.

Moving Heaven and Earth one Sub at a Time.
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post #11 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 10:31 AM
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ED is only about 4 1/2 hours away.

I would love to go and see / hear this sub!
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post #12 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 11:39 AM
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Look at the drivers they use in the a7s-650 >>>

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post #13 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 11:43 AM
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post #14 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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the surrounds are retarded huge on those drivers. to big IMO. i'd rather see a narrower, taller surround like used on some of the TC sounds drivers and the 18" Epik drivers.

having the surround that big robs a lot of cone area.

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post #15 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post

the surrounds are retarded huge on those drivers. to big IMO. i'd rather see a narrower, taller surround like used on some of the TC sounds drivers and the 18" Epik drivers.

having the surround that big robs a lot of cone area.

You do lose some cone area, but much of the surround itself is moving and displacing air along with the cone.
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post #16 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

You do lose some cone area, but much of the surround itself is moving and displacing air along with the cone.

true, but i just think it's to much surround to have when the drivers will only be seeing 650 watts each. they won't reach xmax at that wattage so why have so much surround. they are rated to take 1200-1500 watts rms each so they won't even be breaking a sweat.

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post #17 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 12:03 PM
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post #18 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by swgiust View Post

ED is only about 4 1/2 hours away.

I would love to go and see / hear this sub!

We actually have an open house this weekend. If you are interested in coming down and hearing some other HT stuff, please shoot me a PM. I would be more than happy to discuss you coming over.

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Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post

the surrounds are retarded huge on those drivers. to big IMO. i'd rather see a narrower, taller surround like used on some of the TC sounds drivers and the 18" Epik drivers.

having the surround that big robs a lot of cone area.

We actually had a lot of discussion about this when we released the drivers.

We originally did a taller narrower rubber surround, and found that it robbed performance ALOT. It actually took 4-5 surround renditions before we came to this one. While it doesnt look the best to everyone, it gave the best performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

You do lose some cone area, but much of the surround itself is moving and displacing air along with the cone.

Thats correct, depending on who you speak with, they will say 1/3 to 1/2 the surround is still usable displacement.

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Originally Posted by mcjasonb View Post

true, but i just think it's to much surround to have when the drivers will only be seeing 650 watts each. they won't reach xmax at that wattage so why have so much surround. they are rated to take 1200-1500 watts rms each so they won't even be breaking a sweat.

Like I said, a surround made to accomodate the mechanical limits of the driver was too heavy when done in a similar manner to the other drivers you mentions, actually robbing performance.

That power handling is also for car audio applications, in considerably smaller enclosures. In HT applications 500-750 watts is ideal depending on the enclosure design.
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post #19 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 12:14 PM
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the surrounds are retarded huge on those drivers. to big IMO. i'd rather see a narrower, taller surround like used on some of the TC sounds drivers and the 18" Epik drivers.

having the surround that big robs a lot of cone area.

I can 100% see why visually this would be the case. At first glance this can be very very deceiving. In the end it increases the performance of the design.

I'll elaborate on why this design it used. I think in the end you'll find it's the best way to go from a performance standpoint for this particular subwoofer.

If your familiar with the history of our company you'll know that this design actually evolved from the other style of design your referring to in regards to the TC Sounds drivers into what it is. It is this way for good reason.

This isn't a knock to TC Sounds at all. They make great drivers! Just none really like this. We sampled a lot of speakers and in the end just decided to go our own way.

One of the most notable requirements for the suspension design here is that it needs to be linear throughout the operating range of the driver and then some. We designed the suspension (surround) this way for a lot of reasons. One of which is you don't experience a loss of efficiency the same way with this design.

I'll explain.

When using a material like rubber as you go with higher and higher excursion drivers the material itself needs to get stronger obviously especially when using a "taller" style design. We use these styles on virtually everything else (Note : Eu-Surround on the web site) but not the Av.2 for good reason.

When the material gets thicker (read : heavier) you start to run into major mass issues. The compliance of the surround also begins to change over the excursion of the driver (even if using variable density surround designs) which essentially causes the driver to lose efficiency the further it moves from the center of the gap. Not a huge deal for most and the first renditions of the A (the driver mentioned) used these style of HT designs.

With that said. Modifications were made to fix this efficiency loss.

1. We opted to go backwards a little from our initial intentions and go with a half roll foam design with a little bit of a new twist. The SD of the design will be decreased but the overall linearity of the design actual yields more overall SPL with the same power output. (lighter and more linear is easier to move with the same voltage)

2. The overall basket diameter of the speaker is a true 13". Once you accommodate for the overall diameter change of the speaker and increase in efficiency in the suspension the SPL is easily made up (and added to).

3. This design yields less mass than many of our rubber or foam counterparts used in the development or sampling process. They were just too stiff or too heavy. In the end we had to tool our own. At this point our tooling catalog includes both.

The too stiff or too heavy thing is a big deal with especially with a underhung design. Inherently if you go too far in one direction the darn thing just gets so inefficient it's doesn't do a lot of things well.

If anyone would like us to assemble one with a "tall" surround for cosmetics and increased SD that can be done. We'll do it for you no problem. I will warn though as implemented it will come with decreases in performance and especially in this application a decrease in overall SPL.

After a few years of development this design route was selected for the following reasons.

1. We could afford to tool the frame to offset the loss in overall cone size.
2. The design yields more peak SPL.
3. The design reduces weight considerably.
4. The design is more linear.
5. The design burns less power even to it's linear limits.
6. It will extend higher in the frequency range.
7. It will be more linear at high output levels.

With other speakers with different design intentions it makes great sense. For this speaker this design and profile made the most sense for sound quality (linearity), efficiency (more SPL with the same power), and box requirements (increase mass with the same motor force = box requirements go up and put more stress on the suspension).

It's worth noting that prior to going to final production the Av.2 platform DID have the style of surround your referring to. This one just performed better for the intended applications and right before we hit final production the change was made. I'm very happy with the change.
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post #20 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexlindeman View Post

We actually have an open house this weekend. If you are interested in coming down and hearing some other HT stuff, please shoot me a PM. I would be more than happy to discuss you coming over.



We actually had a lot of discussion about this when we released the drivers.

We originally did a taller narrower rubber surround, and found that it robbed performance ALOT. It actually took 4-5 surround renditions before we came to this one. While it doesnt look the best to everyone, it gave the best performance.



Thats correct, depending on who you speak with, they will say 1/3 to 1/2 the surround is still usable displacement.



Like I said, a surround made to accomodate the mechanical limits of the driver was too heavy when done in a similar manner to the other drivers you mentions, actually robbing performance.

That power handling is also for car audio applications, in considerably smaller enclosures. In HT applications 500-750 watts is ideal depending on the enclosure design.

you guys are the experts so i won't doubt you there. i am just saying when the driver is not using all the surround, all the extra surround becomes a waste and robs a little cone area. when the driver will only see half it's rated power having all the extra surround becomes kind of a waste. i understand the reasoning behind the big surround on this beast and it is needed on this driver when being pushed hard.

once again, i am not doubting you guys. you guys have the experience and knowledge here, not me. and i am sure this A7s-650 is one hell of a sub.

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post #21 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 12:26 PM
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I edit'd some of that in a attempt to fix a few spelling mistakes. I'm sure there is still more than one. Sorry about that. Hopefully I got the idea across just the same.
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post #22 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 12:36 PM
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ll the extra surround becomes a waste and robs a little cone area. when the driver will only see half it's rated power having all the extra surround becomes kind of a waste. i understand the reasoning behind the big surround on this beast and it is needed on this driver when being pushed hard.

100% understood. I also appreciate the great opportunity to explain.

The reduction in physical appearance of cone area (which is actually very slight) is made up in increased SPL due to the compliance shift. This design doesn't eat power the same way.

It becomes even more important when using half the driver platforms rated power. It allows it to be more efficient within it's operating range. Since we are actually using a oversized box for these drivers (to acheive a low Q alignment and cabinet resonance) the amount of throw you can get is quite impressive.

I'll see if I can't find some media or do some quick testing today to demonstrate this amount of movement even with this low power.

Using the other roll style and material will increase mass, decrease efficiency, and especially with this power will reduce over SPL and reduce sound quality. If someone did request it could be done but I will adamantly suggest against it.

Even at low input voltage (especially at low input voltage) the loss of mass mass achieved from this design yields more SPL with less power. This design style is even more valid with this type of alignment matched to these electronics.

I really do appreciate the opportunity to explain. This design evolved to this over a period of many years in this direction and I want to make it clear we went this way in pursuit of better performance even though the design does differ from some of our other offerings.

Will work on that media.
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post #23 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 12:41 PM
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All I can say is WOW! It is clear that you guys know what you are doing.

Am I gonna be the first member here at AVS to own a A7s-650 ?

Right now ive got it narrowed down to an A7s-650 or Seaton Submersive.

You guys at Elemental Designs, tell me something about the A7s-650 to sway me to it.

Seaton, if your reading this , tell me something to sway me to the Submersive.


I will wait patiently, thanks guys.
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post #24 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 12:44 PM
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Flip a coin.

I doubt you'll be unhappy either way.
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post #25 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

All I can say is WOW! It is clear that you guys know what you are doing.

Am I gonna be the first member here at AVS to own a A7s-650 ?


I will wait patiently, thanks guys.

I doubt it. I've had mine ordered before they were on the web page. I think they're shipping out late this week or early next

I say they, because I have 2 of them coming to me. =]
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post #26 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Tower View Post

16" x 16" is the footprint.

That's pretty small in my book. The smallest footprint sub I ever had was like 20"X20".

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post #27 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

That's pretty small in my book. The smallest footprint sub I ever had was like 20"X20".

I'm sorry, I did leave out the grille. The grille adds another inch on the front, so it's technically 17" x 16" with grille, 16" x 16" without. I'll edit my original post.
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post #28 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 04:25 PM
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I doubt it. I've had mine ordered before they were on the web page. I think they're shipping out late this week or early next

I say they, because I have 2 of them coming to me. =]

Dam, two of them?? Wow.. Why did you opt for two of them, and not the A7-900 series??

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post #29 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonies View Post

some pretty crazy excursion on those!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzjx_...e=channel_page

here's a diy box

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhov406xuzu

and another diy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxgse3yvkry&nr=1

rotflmao!!!! :d:d:d
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post #30 of 304 Old 07-22-2009, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by house72 View Post

dam, two of them?? Wow.. Why did you opt for two of them, and not the a7-900 series??


+1 ?
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