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post #3331 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 12:30 PM
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To anyone choosing between an excellent ported sub and an excellent sealed sub, I'd suggest choosing the one that best compliments your room. Bigotis is talking about a 4000 cu.ft room with an open side. As powerful as the Cap S is, it going against the grain in a room like that. It will not have much room gain on it's side. The ported Cap will be working much easier in a room like that. If the room were a sealed room, especially if it were a smaller sealed room, I'd suggest a Cap S (or a Submersive) all the way.

Try to recognize what your room is going to do with the natural response of the sub. Pick a sub that will naturally compliment the room acoustics. You will wind up with better results even before applying any eq.
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post #3332 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgb540 View Post

I would go for the Captivator S model. There are plenty of people who can say that the Submersive might be better or a standard Captivator might be better, but there are only about a dozen people in the world who have heard all three at the same place in the same timeframe and the Captivator S scored highest the subjective comparison (and there was even an Orbit Shifter in the mix too ).

I blame the INuke DSP 3000 amp clearly cutting out and power cycling on the Captivator Pro pair three times during the Blind shootout movie section as to why the Cap Pros didn't place higher/highest during the movie section.

I also think the movie scores between the top four subs were CLEARLY so close as to be statistically insignificant.



when you think about it -- we used 9 peoples' blind votes with a simple scoring range of (1-3), nobody could tell even which sub was which and there was less than a 3% degree of margin between the 1st place movie sub and the 4th place movie sub in this shootout. 3% difference with these side notes means exactly what? Is that enough to determine a clear victor?

nah

1st place for movies = Cap Sealed with 518 total points
2nd place for movies = SubM with 512 total points = 98.84% of 1st place
3rd place for movies = Orbit Shifter with 511 total points = 98.65% of 1st place
4th place for movies = (HuskerOmaha's clear favorite) with a measly 97.30% of the 1st place score and fighting the adversity of three amp failures during the audition is the poor old Cap Pros.

You can't truly pick a clear and ultimate victor with that tiny variance in overall scores using a simple scoring system and 9 opinions. What you can tell is that 5th, 6th, and 7th place had a much larger gap between the top of the pack with fifth place bringing in 431 points and 6th and 7th place mid 360 range scores.

What this means is that you can pick any of these top four subwoofers based on your preferred criteria and likely have made a 'best' choice.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #3333 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike;21655280[QUOTE View Post

To anyone choosing between an excellent ported sub and an excellent sealed sub, I'd suggest choosing the one that best compliments your room. Bigotis is talking about a 4000 cu.ft room with an open side. As powerful as the Cap S is, it going against the grain in a room like that. It will not have much room gain on it's side. The ported Cap will be working much easier in a room like that. If the room were a sealed room, especially if it were a smaller sealed room, I'd suggest a Cap S (or a Submersive) all the way.[


My room is fairly large, basically 25x23 but I have one wall that stretches 35 feet and the middle of the room is 27 feet across with an open staircase. My single PC13 Ultra and the SubM fill it easily.

I understand every room is different but the SubM has crazy amounts of output and the amount of deep deep smooth sounding bass is unreal. IMHO since the Cap S and Cap S2 have huge power, I honestly think they can fill his room as well. Not taking anything away from the Captivator which I'm sure is a beast and might very well be his best option for his room, but I honestly think any of those subs would be killer! IMO don't be fooled by the fact they are sealed....they are beasts too!

I know first hand how awesome a Seaton product is and the JTR products are equally touted. Either of these two companies would be on my shortlist for recommendations as well as any of my future purchases.
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post #3334 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post



My room is fairly large, basically 25x23 but I have one wall that stretches 35 feet and the middle of the room is 27 feet across with an open staircase. My single PC13 Ultra and the SubM fill it easily.

I understand every room is different but the SubM has crazy amounts of output and the amount of deep deep smooth sounding bass is unreal. IMHO since the Cap S and Cap S2 have huge power, I honestly think they can fill his room as well. Not taking anything away from the Captivator which I'm sure is a beast and might very well be his best option for his room, but I honestly think any of those subs would be killer! IMO

I know first hand how awesome a Seaton product is and the JTR products are equally touted. Either of these two companies would be on my shortlist for recommendations as well as any of my future purchases.


With enough power and enough displacement, you can fill anything. What I'm saying is that the most efficient approach is to match the room acoustics with the sub design.
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post #3335 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Try to recognize what your room is going to do with the natural response of the sub. Pick a sub that will naturally compliment the room acoustics. You will wind up with better results even before applying any eq.

This makes total sense but how would I go about to accomplish this?
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post #3336 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 02:25 PM
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I have been looking at JTR and Seaton products and was thinking:

How would things work if you utilized 2 different subs in a 7.2 set up?

Would a JTR Captivator (either Pro or Sealed) and a Seaton Submersive compliment each other or would they clash?
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post #3337 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

This makes total sense but how would I go about to accomplish this?

General rule of thumb: Room is sealed, go with a sealed sub or subs, ideally with no highpass filter. Room is very large or open, go ported.
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post #3338 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post

I have been looking at JTR and Seaton products and was thinking:

How would things work if you utilized 2 different subs in a 7.2 set up?

Would a JTR Captivator (either Pro or Sealed) and a Seaton Submersive compliment each other or would they clash?

From what I know about the Cap S and the Submersive, I believe they could work very well together, although I'd much rather have a matched pair of either.

A ported Cap mixed with a Submersive makes no sense to me. Below the tuning point of the ported Cap, you will get phase cancellation with the Submersive and actually hurt the low extension.
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post #3339 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post


I constantly see on these boards someone saying "adding a second sub is only 2-3db more, or doubling the power of the amp is only 2-3db more, but 2-3db is huge. It must be something you have to hear to understand or appreciate.

Sorry, but it really isn't (huge) from a perception standpoint. The fact that it takes 2, 4, or 10x the power is really irrelevant in that regard.

Dozens of studies indicate that 3dbs is the earliest threshold where the vast majority perceive a "noticeable" increase in volume.

Anyone can easily bear witness to it by simply increasing their MV 3dbs. After such I would defy you to show me anyone who would consider the level increase "huge".

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #3340 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 06:30 PM
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James - is it more about non linear progression? If every six dB is a doubling - that makes it more logrithmic than linear.

Perhaps it may be more about our human thresholds as well where 3dB from 45dB to 48dB is pretty darn insignificant, but 125dB to 128dB might be more significant?

50% more of something you don't hear well is meaningless. 50% more of something that is the loudest thing you've ever heard --- now we are talking.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #3341 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Sorry, but it really isn't (huge) from a perception standpoint. The fact that it takes 2, 4, or 10x the power is really irrelevant in that regard.

Dozens of studies indicate that 3dbs is the earliest threshold where the vast majority perceive a "noticeable" increase in volume.

Anyone can easily bear witness to it by simply increasing their MV 3dbs. After such I would defy you to show me anyone who would consider the level increase "huge".

James

Play 20hz at 115db, and then move it up to 118db and tell me there's no difference.
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post #3342 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 11:02 PM
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I love these subs! I just spent the last hour or two listening to dubstep music on pandora! I just love these cap pros!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
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post #3343 of 4733 Old 02-16-2012, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Play 20hz at 115db, and then move it up to 118db and tell me there's no difference.

The real difference that you can hear is if you're listening to the sub at 115db when it's maxed out vs. listening to it at 115db with 3db still left in the tank. That extra 3db is headroom and headroom is your friend. When you have headroom, the sound is effortless, uncompressed, and undistorted.
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post #3344 of 4733 Old 02-17-2012, 08:22 PM
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How low can u guys get those Cap to dig deep?
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post #3345 of 4733 Old 02-17-2012, 08:30 PM
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Tune is either 15 (one port plugged) or 20hz with both ports open on 2011 Captivators

17.5 hz on 2012 models with both ports open and I don't think Jeff recommends an alternate tune config on the 2012 - at least he hasn't advertised one that I've seen.

I am playing with the crown xls5000 amp tonight and my MIC2200 since I'll likely be retiring the DSP 3000. Maybe I'll pick up a mini dsp, but I've got my cap pro pair reasonably flat at 15hz tune on the MIC2200. I can make it flatter at 20hz tune because it's naturally flatter and I only have 1 parametric EQ per sub channel with the MIC2200. I'm cutting about 12 or 13 dB off the mid 60hz range and using a wider single band to cut down the Cap's natural 70hz hump tendancy.

It's pretty amazing what you can do with just a single parametric EQ band and sub position to work towards flat! It isn't as flat as my DSP 3000 graphs, but it's probably +/- 3 or 4 dB from 15hz and up with just a single band with no smoothing.


Robert you can see my 20hz tune with the Cap pro pair using the Inuke DSP 3000 in the link to my theater room in my sig. FLAT FLAT FLAT. mmmmm


DARN IF MY ONKYO REMOTE JUST DIDN'T UP AND COMPLETELY DIE...I'm in the middle of using it ---- what the heck? I didn't drop it or anything - swapped the batteries and nothing. how does that happen? grrrrrr

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #3346 of 4733 Old 02-17-2012, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I love these subs! I just spent the last hour or two listening to dubstep music on pandora! I just love these cap pros!

I've been doing the same with my SubM. To think that Pandora off a receiver is only 128kb/stream and still slams shows just how good these subs can be.
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post #3347 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

James - is it more about non linear progression? If every six dB is a doubling - that makes it more logrithmic than linear.

Perhaps it may be more about our human thresholds as well where 3dB from 45dB to 48dB is pretty darn insignificant, but 125dB to 128dB might be more significant?

50% more of something you don't hear well is meaningless. 50% more of something that is the loudest thing you've ever heard --- now we are talking.

I'm fairly certain a 10db increase is considered a perceived "doubling" of output throughout the spectrum by the vast majority. I could be in error though.

As for your second assertion of essentially: isn't a 3db more noticeable/valuable further up (as output increases), I don't know for certain.

I will tell you that I watched FlightOTP and U-571 classic scenes at "-3" and "0" respectively (with my Cap 5bs hot) and was able to perceive a difference...barely.

And while it may not have been 125-128db (didn't pull out my meter) it was pretty damn intense. Wowsers.

For me, it's simply about spending what you do to get what you get, is all.

If it puts the rock in someone else's roll, more power to em'.

Janes

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #3348 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post


Play 20hz at 115db, and then move it up to 118db and tell me there's no difference.

Hey brother I tried to delete my post from my phone cuz I didn't want to stir things up but the damn thing wouldn't let me.

As I said above, I won't tell you there isn't a difference, just that it is slight to me.

And again, my two big points:

I (like many I suspect) can already EXCEED reference level bass in my room. I also already run my Cap 5 dbs hot. Seeing I next to never listen beyond -5 on the dial (simply more than loud enough) it doesn't make much sense adding more subs/power because I'm already at reference, running hot, getting good overall room response, and in my personal opinion (and room) upping the bass anymore sounds goofy (kindest word I can think of) and reminiscent of sitting in the back of my brother's 81 monte carlo with some of the "coolest" (read: 16 yr old "cool": obnoxious, booming bass) from a decade and a half back. +10 in the bass region can be fun no doubt (demo-time), but it wears thin for me on the other 97% of material.

Importantly though: I fully expect 2 crucial things to change in my new, gigantic space: output, and room response- so I will almost certainly be adding another Cap.

YMMV.

Respectfully,

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #3349 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 08:35 AM
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My Caps have new friends.















The grills for the speakers are supposed to be shipped next week, I think that will look better. Loving the Cap/eD combo.
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post #3350 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 08:45 AM
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Looking good Carp. How do they sound?
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post #3351 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 08:51 AM
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VERY pleasantly surprised. I have Magnepans that I love for music but weren't giving me the dynamic range I wanted for movies.

When I went with eD I was thinking I might have to run 2 sets of speakers, one for movies one for music - I know that sounds crazy, but I have become just that with this hobby!

I am loving how the eD's sound with music. I boosted the treble a bit on the mcacc eq on my elite and they really do sound very similar to the Maggies for music, with the added bonus of not falling apart when you stand up or move around the room.

For movies, these things have crazy output. I usually watch at -15 with the Maggies on the master volume but I was at -9 last night. I assume that's because the Maggies sound louder because of the distortion, there is none of that with the eD's.

So, I'll be selling the Maggies shortly.
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post #3352 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 08:53 AM
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Excellent Carp, looks fantastic. Gives me something to look forward to.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #3353 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 09:02 AM
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Wow Carp, how much you bought the eD Cinema 12 in pair? are you using eD Cinema 6 center? how do you power them?
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post #3354 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 09:21 AM
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Are you getting new speakers James? Or a 2nd Cap?
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post #3355 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 09:37 AM
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Wow Carp, how much you bought the eD Cinema 12 in pair? are you using eD Cinema 6 center? how do you power them?

Alex gives you 15% off if you buy 3 or more at a time, so I got the mains for 875 and the center for 344, shipped. He also took 15 off that since I'm not very far away and the shipping would be cheaper. He also custom made the center stand for 53 shipped.

These are the 4th pair of speakers I've owned in this room.

1st was Cerwin Vega's with 15 inch woofers that I bought back in the mid 90's in college. They put out crazy bass for their time, probably down to around 30 hz. Needed a ton of eq to sound good for music and often sounded harsh.

2nd - Axioms (m60s for mains). I had these for about 5 years and never liked the sound for music. They were good for movies though. Music always sounded harsh no matter how I tweaked them, it was starting to drive me crazy and I thought maybe it was just me until I heard Magnepans for the first time.

3rd - Magnepan MMG's, MMG center, MMGW (I think thats right...) for surrounds. LOVE the Maggies for music, described earlier their shortcomings.

4th - eD's. Still using the Maggie surrounds, so that will have to change to.

I was worried that anything but Maggies would sound harsh on music, with the Cerwins and Axioms my ears told me to turn down the volume with music it's the opposite with Maggies and eD.

I'm not good at describing imaging, detail, blah blah, and really don't know if I even care about all that. I just like a certain tone from the speaker. If it sounds good and I'm itching to turn it up, then I like the speaker.

One downside. I was hoping to be able to use a 80hz crossover for music now, but I still prefer 150 for music. For movies I use 80 and it works great, but 150 sounds punchier for music.

However, when I have the Captivators flanking me on the sidewalls nearfield they sound their best for music and then I use 80hz and it sounds amazing. However, with this setup movies have absolutely no LFE and sound weak and anemic, go figure.

So, Luke (and maybe Archaea?) is going to come over today to play with my sms-1 and his omnimic and see if I can't get the best of both worlds somehow. If not, I guess I'll be saving for 2 more subs to flank me on the sidwalls!!
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post #3356 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 11:12 AM
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My Caps have new friends.

The grills for the speakers are supposed to be shipped next week, I think that will look better. Loving the Cap/eD combo.

Wow, I knew the dimensions of the cinema 12's, but they look really big on top of the Captivators. Your HT looks really nice. Are the c12's matte finished?

I like the "Naked" speakers!
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post #3357 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


Alex gives you 15% off if you buy 3 or more at a time, so I got the mains for 875 and the center for 344, shipped. He also took 15 off that since I'm not very far away and the shipping would be cheaper. He also custom made the center stand for 53 shipped.

These are the 4th pair of speakers I've owned in this room.

1st was Cerwin Vega's with 15 inch woofers that I bought back in the mid 90's in college. They put out crazy bass for their time, probably down to around 30 hz. Needed a ton of eq to sound good for music and often sounded harsh.

2nd - Axioms (m60s for mains). I had these for about 5 years and never liked the sound for music. They were good for movies though. Music always sounded harsh no matter how I tweaked them, it was starting to drive me crazy and I thought maybe it was just me until I heard Magnepans for the first time.

3rd - Magnepan MMG's, MMG center, MMGW (I think thats right...) for surrounds. LOVE the Maggies for music, described earlier their shortcomings.

4th - eD's. Still using the Maggie surrounds, so that will have to change to.

I was worried that anything but Maggies would sound harsh on music, with the Cerwins and Axioms my ears told me to turn down the volume with music it's the opposite with Maggies and eD.

I'm not good at describing imaging, detail, blah blah, and really don't know if I even care about all that. I just like a certain tone from the speaker. If it sounds good and I'm itching to turn it up, then I like the speaker.

One downside. I was hoping to be able to use a 80hz crossover for music now, but I still prefer 150 for music. For movies I use 80 and it works great, but 150 sounds punchier for music.

However, when I have the Captivators flanking me on the sidewalls nearfield they sound their best for music and then I use 80hz and it sounds amazing. However, with this setup movies have absolutely no LFE and sound weak and anemic, go figure.

So, Luke (and maybe Archaea?) is going to come over today to play with my sms-1 and his omnimic and see if I can't get the best of both worlds somehow. If not, I guess I'll be saving for 2 more subs to flank me on the sidwalls!!

Just for kicks it would be great to see a close measurement of one of the c12's say 1 or 2m.
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post #3358 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

Wow, I knew the dimensions of the cinema 12's, but they look really big on top of the Captivators. Your HT looks really nice. Are the c12's matte finished?

I like the "Naked" speakers!

I too knew the dimensions but yes, I agree, they look much bigger in person. I like that though, they look better sitting on the Caps being so large I think.

No, just the basic finish. Matches the Captivators very well. The matte finish would look nicer but would reflect from the projector a lot more and wouldn't match the Caps as well. That and saving 40 bucks a speaker made the decision easier.
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post #3359 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by WereWolf84 View Post

Wow Carp, how much you bought the eD Cinema 12 in pair? are you using eD Cinema 6 center? how do you power them?

Just using my Pioneer Elite receiver. There is no way these speakers need a seperate amp in this room.
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post #3360 of 4733 Old 02-19-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Hey brother I tried to delete my post from my phone cuz I didn't want to stir things up but the damn thing wouldn't let me.

As I said above, I won't tell you there isn't a difference, just that it is slight to me.

And again, my two big points:

I (like many I suspect) can already EXCEED reference level bass in my room. I also already run my Cap 5 dbs hot. Seeing I next to never listen beyond -5 on the dial (simply more than loud enough) it doesn't make much sense adding more subs/power because I'm already at reference, running hot, getting good overall room response, and in my personal opinion (and room) upping the bass anymore sounds goofy (kindest word I can think of) and reminiscent of sitting in the back of my brother's 81 monte carlo with some of the "coolest" (read: 16 yr old "cool": obnoxious, booming bass) from a decade and a half back. +10 in the bass region can be fun no doubt (demo-time), but it wears thin for me on the other 97% of material.

Importantly though: I fully expect 2 crucial things to change in my new, gigantic space: output, and room response- so I will almost certainly be adding another Cap.

YMMV.

Respectfully,

James

Just saying, add a second Cap to your existing setup, put it wherever, level match so the volume with the two it's exactly the same as before, and then just try and wipe the smile off your face.

Remember, I had two of these running, in a smaller space, and one had a 4k powerhouse Peavey amp.

One is good, two is great. I should have had all 3 going at once but I never took the 3rd out of the box before selling it.
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