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post #3361 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 06:53 PM
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I went over to Carp's tonight to play with the duals integrating sms 1 and I wanted to check out the new speakers.

I haven't sent my omnimic back in for new calibration. I am half way through treating my room and am going to send it in after so I can compare my room changes.

Here is how I convinced him to fire them towards the side wall instead of forward firing.



Here were the different tunes. I forgot to take a screen shot after we set a 14hz hp, but it just rolled off starting at 15hz. You can see what the 14hz hpf does on the smoothed graph below



The distances weren't optimized and we gained 6 db at the crossover region by taking 3 feet off of the sub distance.



I can't remember if we turned off the eq he uses on his speakers for music. But pulled one eD 12 out into middle of room and one maggie and measured at 1 meter for the heck of it with mic centered in speaker.



Had a lot of fun! We used TIH, WOTW, and Iron Man 2 for some demos after we finished. The Caps are great and the new eD's belt it out! After setup we had the subs even with mains, by the end we were running like 15db hot on subs and having a ball. We had max reading coming in of ~118-120 with peaks of 130 on omni.
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post #3362 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 08:29 PM
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Thanks Luke!

Yeah, the subs look butt ugly facing the "wrong" way, but I can't argue with the results.

Yeah, by the last scene we watched (Iron Man 2 - ACDC Shoot to Thrill/fireworks etc.) we had the master volume at 4.5 db under reference. Awesome sound from the eD's, and of course the Caps. The eD's didn't sound harsh at all, just clean powerful sound. Very nice.

It was nice to know I'm not crazy when it comes to calibrating my subs to match my speakers since Luke was here to see how anemic the bass is when it's set up that way (back me up here Luke).

Calibrated level bass (or even a few db's hot) sounds like crap and always has in this room! We started with the subs about 3db hot, and it sounded like the subs weren't on, then we went to about 10 hot, and finally around 15 hot like Luke said.

We didn't see much of the clip lights on the Behringer, even when we were trying on War of the Worlds. Audible port noise on one part of that scene in 15hz tune, that's the only time I've heard it on my Caps.

So, I have a new db PR, 120. Still pretty weak compared to some of you guys, but it was pretty impressive in here today.
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post #3363 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 08:58 PM
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carp

if you were -4.5 on the reciever and had the subs 15dB hot the EP4000 in 2ohm stereo - that EP4000 would be doing a lot more than showing clip lights. I've never run my subs at +15dB while anywhere near reference and I've already burned up one EP4000 with the load??!?!

something doesn't jive!?!?!?!?

-4.5 without the subs running hot should be tickling the clip lights on the EP4000 (2ohm stereo) on WOTW in my experience with my caps and the the EP4000. +3dB on each sub should be making the clip lights light up pretty steady on some of that real bass heavy material with your setup. I don't have any kind of explanation --- but I wonder what's up with that?



I demoed some material with a friend tonight. He smiled and chuckled and said the caps were REALLY something. Said he was really impressed. I do love these subs!

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post #3364 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

carp

if you were -4.5 on the reciever and had the subs 15dB hot the EP4000 in 2ohm stereo - that EP4000 would be doing a lot more than showing clip lights. I've never run my subs at +15dB while anywhere near reference and I've already burned up one EP4000 with the load??!?!

something doesn't jive!?!?!?!?

-4.5 without the subs running hot should be tickling the clip lights on the EP4000 (2ohm stereo) on WOTW in my experience with my caps and the the EP4000. +3dB on each sub should be making the clip lights light up pretty steady on some of that real bass heavy material with your setup. I don't have any kind of explanation --- but I wonder what's up with that?



I demoed some material with a friend tonight. He smiled and chuckled and said the caps were REALLY something. Said he was really impressed. I do love these subs!

We were at -7 on the master volume for WOTW. I'm not sure how hot we were for that movie but I know it was at least 10. So if we were 7 under and were calibrate flat, then we should have LFE peaks around 108 right? If we were 10 hot that would have given us peaks of 118, and we hit 119 so that sounds about right. 15 hot would have given us 123 which we didn't see. Is my math right?

There is something weird going on in here though. I always have to crank the bass so much higher than disks like Avia, or in tonights case, Disney's WOW tell me too. We calibrated 3db hot using WOW, and I'm telling you it sucked. We couldn't feel anything on the Incredible Hulk so we just started turning it up until it sounded right which was at least 10 db hot.

I agree with you about loving these subs, they sounded awesome today.
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post #3365 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

We were at -7 on the master volume for WOTW. I'm not sure how hot we were for that movie but I know it was at least 10. So if we were 7 under and were calibrate flat, then we should have LFE peaks around 108 right? If we were 10 hot that would have given us peaks of 118, and we hit 119 so that sounds about right. 15 hot would have given us 123 which we didn't see. Is my math right?

There is something weird going on in here though. I always have to crank the bass so much higher than disks like Avia, or in tonights case, Disney's WOW tell me too. We calibrated 3db hot using WOW, and I'm telling you it sucked. We couldn't feel anything on the Incredible Hulk so we just started turning it up until it sounded right which was at least 10 db hot.

I agree with you about loving these subs, they sounded awesome today.

I'm curious what level is your gain on the sub? Also what level do you have it at on the receiver?
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post #3366 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 09:31 PM
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Ok, I just re-read your post. 4.5 under you are tickling the lights with the subs even with the speakers?

You are right, something is wrong here. Luke and I kept running that scene over and over again waiting for a clip light and each time we bumped up the sub volume higher and higher. Granted it was 7 under, but still.
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post #3367 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sendtobrit View Post

I'm curious what level is your gain on the sub? Also what level do you have it at on the receiver?

I have passive subs. The volume on the amp was all the way up and the receiver was anywhere from -4 to +4 (volume goes from -12 to +12 on my Pioneer elite) and the volume on the sms-1 was 15 - lots of variables here.
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post #3368 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

I have passive subs. The volume on the amp was all the way up and the receiver was anywhere from -4 to +4 (volume goes from -12 to +12 on my Pioneer elite) and the volume on the sms-1 was 15 - lots of variables here.

I get it. I have the powered version and have it set around 8 and about -2 on my receiver and hit 120+ on the omnimic peaks.
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post #3369 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 09:41 PM
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I've heard the powered version, it's nuts. I'd like to buy an amp someday that will get me close to what I heard.
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post #3370 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

We were at -7 on the master volume for WOTW. I'm not sure how hot we were for that movie but I know it was at least 10. So if we were 7 under and were calibrate flat, then we should have LFE peaks around 108 right? If we were 10 hot that would have given us peaks of 118, and we hit 119 so that sounds about right. 15 hot would have given us 123 which we didn't see. Is my math right?

There is something weird going on in here though. I always have to crank the bass so much higher than disks like Avia, or in tonights case, Disney's WOW tell me too. We calibrated 3db hot using WOW, and I'm telling you it sucked. We couldn't feel anything on the Incredible Hulk so we just started turning it up until it sounded right which was at least 10 db hot.

I agree with you about loving these subs, they sounded awesome today.

That sounds right to me. I like it more tactile than flat in your room. I run flat to 3 db hot but have been really enjoying using a sub nearfield at home lately. We set SMS to unity gain of 15 and had receiver sub level all the way down and still couldn't get ep4000 gains all the way up without being hot. So after we were unimpressed with hulk sonic cannons, gains went up on ep and level in receiver turned up a bit. I thought it was good but Carp kept saying, "I turned it up a few more." By the end it was obvious to be bass heavy, but I was loving every minute and its all about having a good time.
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post #3371 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

That sounds right to me. I like it more tactile than flat in your room. I run flat to 3 db hot but have been really enjoying using a sub nearfield at home lately. We set SMS to unity gain of 15 and had receiver sub level all the way down and still couldn't get ep4000 gains all the way up without being hot. So after we were unimpressed with hulk sonic cannons, gains went up on ep and level in receiver turned up a bit. I thought it was good but Carp kept saying, "I turned it up a few more." By the end it was obvious to be bass heavy, but I was loving every minute and its all about having a good time.

I don't know how you guys play the sub 10db hot! I think my Cap would clip like crazy.
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post #3372 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sendtobrit View Post

I don't know how you guys play the sub 10db hot! I think my Cap would clip like crazy.

What do you usually have the master volume set at?
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post #3373 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 10:04 PM
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Well he has two passive caps in a sealed ~3800 cuft (correct me if I am wrong) size room and we weren't listening to the scenes at master volume reference level. We did flicker the clip lights a few times.
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post #3374 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

I thought it was good but Carp kept saying, "I turned it up a few more."

Haha, that made me laugh - very accurate description.

I'm just not happy until I can see those red lights... but I want to have a powerful enough amp so that I don't ever have to worry about seeing those red lights. It's quite the catch-22.
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post #3375 of 4759 Old 02-19-2012, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

Well he has two passive caps in a sealed ~3800 cuft (correct me if I am wrong) size room and we weren't listening to the scenes at master volume reference level. We did flicker the clip lights a few times.

Closer to 3000 but that's without the half staircase.
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post #3376 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 05:37 AM
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I got to thinking last night that reference is not an absolute and by that I mean it's room specific how hard a receiver or amp has to push the equipment to hit reference levels. Is it possible that my room is that much more difficult than yours. Otherwise I stil can't wrap my head around why you can run your exact same subs on the exact same amp on the exact same load (2ohm) say 7 to 15 db louder than mine before encountering clip lights?

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post #3377 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I got to thinking last night that reference is not an absolute and by that I mean it's room specific how hard a receiver or amp has to push the equipment to hit reference levels. Is it possible that my room is that much more difficult than yours. Otherwise I stil can't wrap my head around why you can run your exact same subs on the exact same amp on the exact same load (2ohm) say 7 to 15 db louder than mine before encountering clip lights?

That and the fact that you can hit 125 db and I can only hit 120 db is also puzzling to me. I know my seating position is further from the subs than yours so that explains some of it, but how would you be clipping at lower levels but also getting that much higher db's at the same time?
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post #3378 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 07:04 AM
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[quote=Archaea;21671194]I got to thinking last night that reference is not an absolute and by that I mean it's room specific how hard a receiver or amp has to push the equipment to hit reference levels. Is it possible that my room is that much more difficult than yours. Otherwise I stil can't wrap my head around why you can run your exact same subs on the exact same amp on the exact same load (2ohm) say 7 to 15 db louder than mine before encountering clip lights?[/QUOTE

Just thought of a possibility. Are you using a HPF? Yesterday Luke and I set the sms-1 HPF at 14 with 24db slope with a port plug and at 19 with 24db slope with both ports open.
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post #3379 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 07:05 AM
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My db measurements were taken on both ratshack meter and omnimic. So were yours. Our rooms must just be really odd to the subs. I sit 8 -10 foot away from the subs and you sit double that right?

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post #3380 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 07:33 AM
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Pretty close to double, measured yesterday at 16'6" away.
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post #3381 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 07:34 AM
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You are talking about max numbers on the omnimic, not peak right?
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post #3382 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

What do you usually have the master volume set at?

Normal listening levels are at -8 to -10. For Demo purposes -5 to -3.
with one Sub my max levels on the Omnimic are usually around 115db. My sub is about 6 feet away from the LP.
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post #3383 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

I went over to Carp's tonight to play with the duals integrating sms 1 and I wanted to check out the new speakers.

I haven't sent my omnimic back in for new calibration. I am half way through treating my room and am going to send it in after so I can compare my room changes.

Here is how I convinced him to fire them towards the side wall instead of forward firing.

Here were the different tunes. I forgot to take a screen shot after we set a 14hz hp, but it just rolled off starting at 15hz. You can see what the 14hz hpf does on the smoothed graph below

The distances weren't optimized and we gained 6 db at the crossover region by taking 3 feet off of the sub distance.

I can't remember if we turned off the eq he uses on his speakers for music. But pulled one eD 12 out into middle of room and one maggie and measured at 1 meter for the heck of it with mic centered in speaker.

Had a lot of fun! We used TIH, WOTW, and Iron Man 2 for some demos after we finished. The Caps are great and the new eD's belt it out! After setup we had the subs even with mains, by the end we were running like 15db hot on subs and having a ball. We had max reading coming in of ~118-120 with peaks of 130 on omni.

Thanks for posting these especially the ed c12. It is interesting to see! Hopefully it will not insight a riot.
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post #3384 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

Thanks for posting these especially the ed c12. It is interesting to see! Hopefully it will not insight a riot.

Ha, Luke and I laughed about that very possibility.

Notice the dropoff on the Magnepans too above 15 khz, there has to be something wrong with the omnimic in the higher frequencies.
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post #3385 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 03:59 PM
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Why would it incite a riot?

Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...
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post #3386 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


Ha, Luke and I laughed about that very possibility.

Notice the dropoff on the Magnepans too above 15 khz, there has to be something wrong with the omnimic in the higher frequencies.

I bet it will fly under the radar here, but very wise move not posting it in the eD Owners thread!
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post #3387 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Are you getting new speakers James? Or a 2nd Cap?

Just another Cap at some point. Everytime I get the itch to change speakers, it's quickly subdued by 2 facts:

I now have 11 to "upgrade".

I am still blown away with how great my def tecs sound and it would be extremely difficult to match their performance for the dollars I've spent.

After adding another Cap I reckon I'll be set for a long while.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #3388 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post


That and the fact that you can hit 125 db and I can only hit 120 db is also puzzling to me. I know my seating position is further from the subs than yours so that explains some of it, but how would you be clipping at lower levels but also getting that much higher db's at the same time?

5dbs could easily be attributed to the room/distance/position...never mind the +/- dbs of the spl meters involved.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #3389 of 4759 Old 02-20-2012, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Just another Cap at some point. Everytime I get the itch to change speakers, it's quickly subdued by 2 facts:

I now have 11 to "upgrade".

I am still blown away with how great my def tecs sound and it would be extremely difficult to match their performance for the dollars I've spent.

After adding another Cap I reckon I'll be set for a long while.

James

That's what I thought about my RF-83s........So much that I used a second pair for my music-only setup.

I replaced the music 83s with a pair of T12s and, OMMFG, are they soooooooooooooooo much better!!!!!!

Of course, "dollars spent" is another issue, but double the cost was well worth it to me.
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post #3390 of 4759 Old 02-21-2012, 06:47 AM
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Hey guys, I made some speaker pedestals over the weekend. Just wanted to share with yall.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21676319


Another note, I'm still waiting on the replacement driver for my cap. I texted Jeff and he said He didn't for get about me. He's still waiting on them as well.
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