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post #541 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Since you mentioned amps, it will be interesting to see if anyone with a new PB-13 Ultra with the 1,000 watt SLEDGE amp buys a Captivator and can do a few simple comparisons as you did. Of course, then we would want to see the results using a Captivator with the 4,000 watt amp.

I am thinking about one our members, it might be Craig John, but I'm not sure, who seems to frown on pairing subs with significantly different outputs. I haven't studied his thesis, but my impression is that the lesser sub keeps the beefier sub from using its greater output properly. Please feel free to correct me on that if I am wrong.

As things stand with you, it seems to make sense that you didn't get the 4,000 watt amp, especially since you had the amp and other equipment.

The combined output plot is quite remarkable. You may not have the crazy ULF rise that MKT has in his sealed room, but it doesn't sound like you are missing anything (except the sub 10 Hz effects), that don't seem to be of much interest to you.

This thing is already so powerful with the Behringer. With the 4000 plate amp, it should actually be good for at least another 4 db or so assuming the amp really can deliver the goods.

As far as running two subs with different outputs, the trick is to let the hardier sub do most of the heavy lifting. I set the Captivator to contribute about 3 more db than the PB13. At reference, neither is working that hard.

I'm very happy with the combined response of the two subs and somewhat surprised about how it leveled out the way it did. My room is very large and only has about 3 1/3 walls out of 4, so it is wide open to the whole house. This would make it very difficult for me to get useable response to <10hz. I consciously decided a few years ago to forgo response to 10hz and instead concentrate on real, useable output down to 15hz or so. Bosso might say that the system is deficient if it can't play back everything that might be on a disc, but I don't feel like I'm missing out on all that much.
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post #542 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bmrowe View Post
While we are asking Jeff questions, is the 2011 Captivator 8 or 4 ohms? I feel like people have been talking about it being 4 ohms, but the product detail page said 8 ohms.
The current driver used in the Captivator is 8 ohms. A few weeks ago, Jeff wound up going with a version of the driver with slightly different specs than what he had tried out originally. That is the reason for the delay from the estimated completion date of November 29.
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post #543 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post
Spyboy, would you please tell me how you came to this conclusion based on the information presented? I see no indication in his post or in the graphs that any sub 10hz effects are missing.

Is this something that JTR subwoofer owners have complained about in the past? Is this something that pb13 owners have complained about in the past?

Would you please clarify how you arrived at that conclusion. Thanks!
Spyboy is right. The SMS-1 only reads to 15hz, but I do have a 14hz filter in place. The two subs are tuned to 15hz, so I'm pretty sure they are rolling off below what you can see on the graph.
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post #544 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
Spyboy is right. The SMS-1 only reads to 15hz, but I do have a 14hz filter in place. The two subs are tuned to 15hz, so I'm pretty sure they are rolling off below what you can see on the graph.
I understand about the high pass filter, but the implication was that the product does not produce ULF in the single digits. Your graphs do not show a severe rolloff implied by the slope direction at 15hz. Based on spyboy's earlier comments questioning the whole JTR lineup of subs, the veracity of claimed wattage specs, the authenticity of output specs and graphs posted by Jeff, I'm curious what he's getting at specifically.


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post #545 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by nube View Post
I understand about the high pass filter, but the implication was that the product does not produce ULF in the single digits. Your graphs do not show a severe rolloff implied by the slope direction at 15hz. Based on spyboy's earlier comments questioning the whole JTR lineup of subs, the veracity of claimed wattage specs, the authenticity of output specs and graphs posted by Jeff, I'm curious what he's getting at specifically.
I may have to break out the REW at some point in order to see what might be going on south of 15hz, but it is such a PIA. With the 15 hz tuning even without the 14 hz filter, it is logical to assume that both subs would begin rolling off at some point not too far below 15hz. What little room gain I get may extend the frequency a bit, but knowing my room, it's not all that much.

I know that the PB13 tuned to 10hz or sealed will produce 10hz tones, but unless the room is quite small, the spl of those tones will not be significant enough to be useful.

For useable single digit reproduction, ported subs are not really the best instruments. Other than a rotory fan sub, an IB system with multiple drivers and decent power would be the best approach. Multiple sealed subs with big power is the alternative.
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post #546 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
I may have to break out the REW at some point in order to see what might be going on south of 15hz, but it is such a PIA.

For anyone interested in a measurement system....

Dayton is coming out with the new OmniMic system - which is a USB MIC for very simple measuring and less hassle. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=390-790

I think this will be a nice change of pace from the whole hit and miss trying to get REW up and running for a few folks...

I know I couldn't get it working for myself...


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post #547 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
I may have to break out the REW at some point in order to see what might be going on south of 15hz, but it is such a PIA. With the 15 hz tuning even without the 14 hz filter, it is logical to assume that both subs would begin rolling off at some point not too far below 15hz. What little room gain I get may extend the frequency a bit, but knowing my room, it's not all that much.

I know that the PB13 tuned to 10hz or sealed will produce 10hz tones, but unless the room is quite small, the spl of those tones will not be significant enough to be useful.

For useable single digit reproduction, ported subs are not really the best instruments. Other than a rotory fan sub, an IB system with multiple drivers and decent power would be the best approach. Multiple sealed subs with big power is the alternative.
mojomike, what are you using for an EQ/HPF?
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post #548 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 05:58 PM
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Sms-1
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post #549 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 06:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post
For anyone interested in a measurement system....

Dayton is coming out with the new OmniMic system - which is a USB MIC for very simple measuring and less hassle. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=390-790

I think this will be a nice change of pace from the whole hit and miss trying to get REW up and running for a few folks...

I know I couldn't get it working for myself...
I love dayton products. Great bang for buck value.
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post #550 of 4766 Old 12-22-2010, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
Sms-1
I should have connected the dots from the graph you posted earlier - my bad. Thats what I get for drinking and posting on here : )
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post #551 of 4766 Old 12-23-2010, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

HP = 14hz with a 18db/octave slope.
I'm not sure about the Behringer clipping because I was watching the spl meter instead of the red lights. It is possible that it was clipping.

Thanks,...awesome.

What limited your raising the SPL further? An audible point that you felt you didn't want to exceed? One can easily hear the onset of harmonics brought on by clipping, and with some effort, one can determine by ear the onset of compression.

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post #552 of 4766 Old 12-23-2010, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

This thing is already so powerful with the Behringer. With the 4000 plate amp, it should actually be good for at least another 4 db or so assuming the amp really can deliver the goods.

................

I don't know the compression numbers associated with the Cap driver, but the SPLs at those power levels may or may not have a linear relationship with input power.

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post #553 of 4766 Old 12-23-2010, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Thanks,...awesome.

What limited your raising the SPL further? An audible point that you felt you didn't want to exceed? One can easily hear the onset of harmonics brought on by clipping, and with some effort, one can determine by ear the onset of compression.

These are not absolutely scientific tests. At the peak levels measured on the PB13, the woofer was beginning to produce audible distortion. In the case of the Captivator, with WOTW at 122db, some audible distortion was noted. I can't say whether it was the amp or the driver. With FOTP, I simply ran out of meter at 126db.

I do not consider the numbers I measured to be absolutes. Some sort of accompanying distortion measurements would be becessary for that. What I can comfortably say is the the Captivator powered by the Behringer has more output capability than the PB13. A lot more.
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post #554 of 4766 Old 12-23-2010, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I don't know the compression numbers associated with the Cap driver, but the SPLs at those power levels may or may not have a linear relationship with input power.

There are too many variables to make an accurate prediction here. How Jeff chooses to eq and dial in limiters is a factor. The amp's actual power delivery into an 8ohm driver, continuous as well as short-term peak, is a factor. Also, the new Caps being built are tuned to 20hz for higher efficiency. this imposes another variability.

My 4db estimate is no more than just that.
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post #555 of 4766 Old 12-23-2010, 09:00 AM
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Great info Mike thanks!

How many cubic feet is your HT?

Thanks!

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post #556 of 4766 Old 12-23-2010, 09:29 AM
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Great info Mike thanks!

How many cubic feet is your HT?

Thanks!

It's a family room of about 6200 cu.ft., but there are only about 3 1/3 out of 4 walls, so it opens to the whole house. This is why I prefer ported subs and need a lot of woofage.
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post #557 of 4766 Old 12-24-2010, 07:56 AM
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My Captivator arrived yesterday while I was gone at work. I didn't get home til almost 8 so I only played for a couple of hours. Packaging was excellent and cabinet construction top notch with no visible imperfections. The magnetic grill goes on without a hitch and everything is on point for fit and finish. Jeff even hit me up at almost 1 in the morning his time to see if all was well with delivery.

Currently I have 2) DTS 10s nearfield behind my second row of seats driven by a Face Audio F1200. It's very tactful with great response and I have no issues other than trying to even out the response for honestly 1 seat (I know I know but it's where I normally sit). So I have the Cap on the side wall. I planned on powering it with a bridged Face Audio F700 but for some reason the amp had other ideas emitting a LOUD hum so I'll have to try and do some more trouble shooting. As a quick fix I just just used 1 channel of stereo mode so only 700 watts. With that being the case everything so far on a music perspective (lots of snippets of R & B, hip hop, and Jazz so far) has been great. Great transient response - no one note wonder here, lots of output, depth, control, etc. I mean it's no easy task to even keep up with dual DTS 10s but the Cap is complimenting nice. Today I'm gonna try some more amp options and gradually try to see how much abuse the Captivator can take, as of right now I don't think I have come close to seeing its limits. More to come soon.
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post #558 of 4766 Old 12-24-2010, 10:17 AM
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I'm glad to see that you are starting to enjoy your Captivator. Hopefully you will get that amp hum issue worked out. Any chance you might try the Face 1200 with the Captivator. That would get things rocking. I'll be curious to hear about how the Captivator compares with the DTS 10.

I spent a couple of hours this morning revisiting some favorite movie scenes at reference level and actually managed to scare myself a couple of times. I'm realizing that many things in my room are not secure and are prone to fall off shelves. This was not nearly as much of a problem before adding the Captivator to the system. Even at the same measured volume levels as before, it's different and feels much more powerful. I'm not kidding when I say that I'm now concerned about breaking things in my room.
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post #559 of 4766 Old 12-24-2010, 03:34 PM
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Are there any Caps out there with the built-in amp?

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #560 of 4766 Old 12-24-2010, 03:41 PM
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post #561 of 4766 Old 12-24-2010, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

I spent a couple of hours this morning revisiting some favorite movie scenes at reference level and actually managed to scare myself a couple of times. I'm realizing that many things in my room are not secure and are prone to fall off shelves. This was not nearly as much of a problem before adding the Captivator to the system. Even at the same measured volume levels as before, it's different and feels much more powerful. I'm not kidding when I say that I'm now concerned about breaking things in my room.

This is what the hobby is all about
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post #562 of 4766 Old 12-24-2010, 06:53 PM
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Today I tried my Crown K2 in bridged mode but it had a ridiculous hum that I couldn't get past, even tried a cheater plug. Soo... 450 watts it is from the Face Audio F700. The first listening tests I did were with levels set just by ear with Audyssey turned off and I had the Cap at -1 or so and the DTS 10s at -9. I tested with just the Cap placed on the side wall and it sounded good but a tad lean on movies, no struggle but not as tactile as the DTS 10s. I later ran Audyssey which set the Cap at -3 and the DTS 10s at -14.5 and just for kicks left Audyssey EQ on. Fired up familiar material and me and another forum member who I had over both looked at each other in shock. With the DTS 10s turned that far down and the Cap lower than I initially had set I didn't expect that much impact. The Cap was clearly providing a welcome contribution that just made the bass more emcompassing. After that we just played several snippets of songs and really everything just sounds good with the Cap playing solo. Lastly we moved the Cap to a corner I have up front by my screen. I didn't try it there mostly because of aesthetics but man with the DTS 10s turned off you could feel the Cap hittin hard while still keepin composure. I had to jet out to get some last minute Christmas stuff so I haven't run a movie since having run Audyssey. That will be on the agenda for tomorrow. Keep in mind I'm running the worst case scenario - 450 watts and a side wall placement and it still sounds great.

A little about my room/system I have a pseudo baffle wall with JTR 888s for L & R with a Triple 12 for center and Klipsch RB 61s behind a 120" AT screen. Klipsch RS 62s on the side walls for surround duty with 2) DTS 10s nearfield behind my last row of seats and the Captivator on the side wall. 24 feet long x 14 at the widest dimension with 8 foot ceilings and the first row is 13 feet away from the screen.
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post #563 of 4766 Old 12-25-2010, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

Are there any Caps out there with the built-in amp?

There will be soon!
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post #564 of 4766 Old 12-25-2010, 10:50 AM
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Love to have a comparo with a SubMersive... Anyone with that capability?!

I've got an SubM HP... Anyone close to Utah/Idaho with a Cap?

I am really enjoying the properties of Mark's sealed design (esp. the new HP amp), but can't help but be curious about Jeff's new beast - especially one tuned to 15hz!

Perhaps Jeff is in a holiday mood and will send me a demo unit to test?

creative>energy

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post #565 of 4766 Old 12-25-2010, 12:00 PM
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Love to have a comparo with a SubMersive... Anyone with that capability?!

Oh goodness, I hope not. We need at least 48hrs before any more highly volatile threads break out here in the subwoofer forum.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #566 of 4766 Old 12-25-2010, 07:13 PM
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Oh goodness, I hope not. We need at least 48hrs before any more highly volatile threads break out here in the subwoofer forum.

I hear you - however, we men of science shouldn't quit trying to achieve more objective, measurable, and helpful tests/comparisons just because other less mature and less honest fan-boi's troll around! That way they win and we lose.

In my case, I do have a SubMersive HP, which I have obviously a decent $$ invested in. Even though it clearly is the best sub that I've ever had in my room (besting the likes of similarly impressive models by SVS, JL, CHT; and obviously other lesser subs), I try to be honest and objective in my comparo's with every sub I get my hands on. It's part of the fun and the science.

I quit measuring my manhood and self-esteem on the b-ball court years ago (aided by the loss of my vertical leap ), and I sure as heck don't play those stupid games with things I own, or wish I did!

I believe the competition drives the excellence - game on I say!

creative>energy

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post #567 of 4766 Old 12-25-2010, 11:12 PM
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Are there any Caps out there with the built-in amp?

I have 2 ordered...should be here in a week or so I believe


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post #568 of 4766 Old 12-26-2010, 04:25 AM
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Two powered Caps should really rock your world. I hope your house circuits are beefed up up to handle two of those amps in one room.

Did you order the 20hz tune with the port plug option?
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post #569 of 4766 Old 12-26-2010, 09:03 PM
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I was gonna call jeff tomorrow to check on that as I never specified. He's doing the 20 hz tune with the port plug standard for 2011?


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post #570 of 4766 Old 12-27-2010, 05:22 AM
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Yes, that has become the current standard configuration. Mine was an earlier version of the new Captivator and was built with 15hz native tuning. The 20hz version should have even more output, but if used in 15hz tune with one port blocked, to me it looks like it would be a bit underported for a woofer like that with huge displacement.
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