JTR Captivator - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Same driver as the OS, too bad yours are covered up man you should see it move! Another real cool effect I forgot to mention was the fan effect.

I asked Jeff if was possible to get a plexiglass hatch to cover the driver in the OS and he said yes..........I will post pic's if and when i get one on mine...
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post #632 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 02:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

oh. my bad. anyone have pictures of the NEW 18" one? You've definitely peaked my interest.

Posts 512 and 514 by mojomike on page 18 of this thread contain various pics of the new 2011 cap.
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post #633 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 02:38 PM
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post #634 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 02:38 PM
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There are pic's in this thread somewhere of the new cap's. You can also go to the OS thread and see pic's of the 18" driver he is using.
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post #635 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 02:41 PM
 
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I am Arnold Schwarzawoofer, hear me roar.
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post #636 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

The sub is beefy, but not that large or heavy compared to what I'm used to. The driver is a massive thing of beauty. It looks dangerous and the surround is huge. I've initially set things up and did some basic level setting. No eq'ing or tweaking yet. I ran WOTW at reference levels just to see what she can do. So far, I'm very pleased. The pods emerge and this thing is not even breaking a sweat. Not even working hard! It can obviously give way more than I will ever ask of it.

Keep in mind that this is the unpowered version and I am driving it with a Behringer EP2500. The driver is 8 ohms, so with the Behringer bridged, it will probably see 1400 or 1500 watts. It laughs at 1500 watts, and yet will easily play at reference levels. I can only imagine the sub with 4000 watts. I'm hearing no sign of compression, no distress of any kind. The big driver is cakewalking through WOTW!


is that port just a slot? or is it curved inside somehow? any port chuffing? the reason i ask is....i had a few def techs like that with a similar slot port and the chuffing was absolutely horrendous. so...is that slot cureved like the MFW-15 somehow? or just a cut out for air to escape?

Any pictures of the cabinet interior?
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post #637 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 03:34 PM
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I have a Single Growler coming, at some point would getting a UN-Powered Captivator and integrating them at with external amp be possible?

Cap: 20Hz - ?Hz

Growler ?Hz - 120Hz
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post #638 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

gpmbc,

Good to see the Face amp can do 2 ohms nicely. Really one of my favorite pro amps for performance, build quality and looks. I know the F1200 didn't test well with chuck in the amp test thread but in actually use these amps are impressive. I have QSC PLX3402, 2502, RMX-5050, PL 9.0 and a EP4000 and in actual use with a LMS Ultra 18" sub the Face amps can really pound out the bass with the best of them.

Have you ever had any problems with your Face amps?

I took this pic to send to a friend, only 1 F1200 was being used though, the others were just put in to show how good these amps look in my rack


I had a 3402 too now I have an F1200 and an F700. I haven't had any problems. I know in Chuck's test it had less than rated output but still a solid 1,000 and who knows in real world for a short bursts if it is more capable.
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post #639 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

is that port just a slot? or is it curved inside somehow? any port chuffing? the reason i ask is....i had a few def techs like that with a similar slot port and the chuffing was absolutely horrendous. so...is that slot cureved like the MFW-15 somehow? or just a cut out for air to escape?

Any pictures of the cabinet interior?

Not sure of the specifics on the slot port implementation, quite sure of no port chuffing whatsoever.
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post #640 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMIE View Post

I have a Single Growler coming, at some point would getting a UN-Powered Captivator and integrating them at with external amp be possible?

Cap: 20Hz - ?Hz

Growler ?Hz - 120Hz

Should be fun maybe a little challenging as you will have to have an external crossover to adjust for the delay in the Growler horn as well as the distance from you in comparison to the Cap. Even if you get a receiver with 2 sub outputs you will need a way to high pass the Growler and low pass the Cap. If you get them to play nice it will be potent. The Cap has a good kick so it will be interesting to see what the Growler will improve upon.
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post #641 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post


Nice and beefy.

The cast basket is identical in appearance to my IB3-18s, from Fi. The magnet stack is different, it appears there is 3 magnet elements stacked, where my IB3-18s have only 2. Different app, different topology. But those baskets must be sourced from the same OEM.

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post #642 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

I had a 3402 too now I have an F1200 and an F700. I haven't had any problems. I know in Chuck's test it had less than rated output but still a solid 1,000 and who knows in real world for a short bursts if it is more capable.

I briefly compared the F1200 to the 3402 a while ago and felt the 3402 might have an edge over the 1200 but it was quick and the difference was subtle. You know what's strange with chuck's measurements in 8ohms and 2ohms with the F1200 is there was only a 100 to 200 watt difference but in your comparison it seemed to make a huge difference which 200 watts wouldn't make. You have to double your power to get a 3db gain.

I do plan on testing all the amps I have on the sealed LMS Ultra 18" pair I am finishing up here soon. The QSC PL 9.0 is the most powerful of the bunch but it's 4 fans are probably going to be too loud. The RMX-5050 will probably be the amp to drive the pair but we will see.

I have to admit that I favor the Face amps for there looks and built quality. SQ on the Face amps are outstanding too, I have yet to hear from a Face audio owner who doesn't like these amps. I think Chuck's test really has people staying away even though it's 4 ohm stereo performance matched the PLX3402.

What made you switch from the 3402 to the Face amps?

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #643 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Quaxtros if Jeff says it then it is. And by that I mean with people questioning if the driver can do 4" peak to peak and if the amp can do the stated output, with Jeff being the source I say all day yes. Jeff is not a hype man, it's just not his personality. So when he puts it out there that one of his products has a certain capability count it all good. I think you will be in awe of what a box that size puts out. I still am and I have 4 times less power for the peaks than you will.

I can appreciate your enthusiasm for this fine product. Similarly, I can appreciate your feelings regarding Jeff not being a hype man, "it's just not his personality". I do not know Jeff as you do, so I cannot make any claim as to his propensity to embellishment. As far as we know, these numbers may be supplied from the driver OEM, or marketing dept., we just don't know. Hell, it doesn't even matter where they came from.

Like many that frequent AVS, I've been in driver search mode for quite some time. So, us in that mindset have a general idea of what's out there, what's theoretically possible. We also are familiar with driver weak points, and typical driver compromises that allow for more performance in one area, while forgoing performance in a different area.

So, upon first seeing the web-site specs for the Cap driver, I really sat up and took notice. An 18" driver with a 4" peak to peak stroke is phenomenal. DIYers salivate over such displacement. There have been discussions regarding inflated claims, although wrt the 4kw amp, I'm entirely satisfied with the thorough explanation given. However, I'm still somewhat perplexed with the 4" peak to peak claim. Jeff offered a description including some exterior driver basket measurements. I thanked him and let it pass.

Now, reading your enthusiasm, and assuredness of these numbers being good, just on Jeff's word. I, like many here, am not in that position of blind trust with any AVS poster regardless who it is. Trust, but verify was a common cold war slogan in the 80s. I can't speak for anyone else, but it has served me well.

So verify;

The first bullet point is as follows;

◦massive excursion 18″ subwoofer (30mm xmax each way, 4″ peak to peak)

That is the first prominent feature listed. I'm simple, and oftentimes I need to break things down into their components. I like to move slowly and be prudent. According to my wife of a quarter century, I still make mistakes, but I don't miss much.


The math is as follows;

Xmax= 30mm which is ~1 3/16"
Doubling Xmax, 60mm, gives us the total stroke, which is the peak to peak of the magnetic circuit. Drivers can exceed Xmax, and are physically limited by Xlim, or Xmech. This represents the point of which mechanical movement is limited by physical means. In some drivers, this is where the former or voice coil encounters the back plate.

Xlim is the amount by which the voice coil can move in one direction before this hard limit occurs. In other words it is the "excursion limit"

Xmax is the amount by which the voice coil can move in one direction, while staying in the linear part of the magnetic circuit.

Now the claim of 4" peak to peak travel equates to 102mm. The reason this first made me take notice is that 102mm is 170% of Xmax. That's significant. Is it out of the realm of possibility? I don't know. That's why I posed the question. I was glad Jeff responded to this here. However his explanation left me with additional unanswered points.

Regardless, it a very strong performer, at a very attractive price accompanied with a the normal industrial chic minimalistic style.




Thanks
JTR rocks

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post #644 of 4759 Old 01-01-2011, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

Should be fun maybe a little challenging as you will have to have an external crossover to adjust for the delay in the Growler horn as well as the distance from you in comparison to the Cap. Even if you get a receiver with 2 sub outputs you will need a way to high pass the Growler and low pass the Cap. If you get them to play nice it will be potent. The Cap has a good kick so it will be interesting to see what the Growler will improve upon.

Thanks,

I would have 2 Crown 2000 XTi series AMP's that I could bridge into 8 Ohms at 1600 Watts each. I am thinking I could possible pull it off. I have not dug into the AMPs yet as a friend is selling them to me for a good price but I think through the Low Fq Bridged channel (Channel 1) and with the software create a high/low pass and slope. I would have to check on that. I also have and SMS-1 that could take care of the Cap.
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post #645 of 4759 Old 01-02-2011, 09:33 AM
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FOH, I have pushed my OS, which has the same driver, to the limits of my HT processor without any signs of stress. I talk to Jeff at least 2-3 times a week and I can assure you he stand behind what he says. His products do what he says they will do.
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post #646 of 4759 Old 01-02-2011, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post



The math is as follows;

Xmax= 30mm which is ~1 3/16"
Doubling Xmax, 60mm, gives us the total stroke, which is the peak to peak of the magnetic circuit. Drivers can exceed Xmax, and are physically limited by Xlim, or Xmech. This represents the point of which mechanical movement is limited by physical means. In some drivers, this is where the former or voice coil encounters the back plate.

Xlim is the amount by which the voice coil can move in one direction before this hard limit occurs. In other words it is the "excursion limit"

Xmax is the amount by which the voice coil can move in one direction, while staying in the linear part of the magnetic circuit.

Now the claim of 4" peak to peak travel equates to 102mm. The reason this first made me take notice is that 102mm is 170% of Xmax. That's significant. Is it out of the realm of possibility? I don't know. That's why I posed the question. I was glad Jeff responded to this here. However his explanation left me with additional unanswered points.

Regardless, it a very strong performer, at a very attractive price accompanied with a the normal industrial chic minimalistic style.




Thanks
JTR rocks

You didn't miss anything. The P to P is indeed 2-3/8", not 4". I think that the use of mm for one-way X-max and inches for P to P X-mech is misleading as X-mech has nothing to do with optimum performance..

Bosso
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post #647 of 4759 Old 01-02-2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMIE View Post

I have a Single Growler coming, at some point would getting a UN-Powered Captivator and integrating them at with external amp be possible?

Cap: 20Hz - ?Hz

Growler ?Hz - 120Hz

"The Growler Duo has a button on the 4000 watt amplifier, labeled "LOW", that when pushed in, will tune the subwoofer for low frequency reproduction, capable of 122db at 20hz at the sitting position in a home theater and has useful output below (115db at 15hz, 106db at 10hz)."

With numbers like these being attainable with a single Growler, maybe the better integration would be (2) Growlers instead of a Growler and Captivator. I have 2 Duo's and have never heard low to subsonic bass to this extent before. Now I am not as "techie" as most guys on here and dont have all the graphs and numbers to show the world to back up my statement........BUT my house, ears, guts and audio friends all agree the pair of Growlers is about as good as you'll get for anywhere near the price or quite a ways beyond.
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post #648 of 4759 Old 01-03-2011, 12:49 AM
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The regular Growler doesn't go much below 40 hz though, but I should know soon but that might be a good idea and have them flank my Left and Right Fronts.
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post #649 of 4759 Old 01-03-2011, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by KERMIE View Post

The regular Growler doesn't go much below 40 hz though, but I should know soon but that might be a good idea and have them flank my Left and Right Fronts.

Ah.....good point. I guess I shold have looked further to see which Growler version you have.
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post #650 of 4759 Old 01-03-2011, 11:04 AM
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Sidewayz,

I think an Omaha meet is in order to hear these Growlers!
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post #651 of 4759 Old 01-03-2011, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post
I had a 3402 too now I have an F1200 and an F700. I haven't had any problems. I know in Chuck's test it had less than rated output but still a solid 1,000 and who knows in real world for a short bursts if it is more capable.

It was my F1200 That chuck tested and blew the caps. The upside was the fact that FACE Fixed the amp without question. That was impressive considering the testing Chuck does could be deemed pushing the amp outside of normal operating range.


Nice amps for sure, the 1000w/ch was nice.

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post #652 of 4759 Old 01-03-2011, 12:56 PM
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It was my F1200 That chuck tested and blew the caps. The upside was the fact that FACE Fixed the amp without question. That was impressive considering the testing Chuck does could be deemed pushing the amp outside of normal operating range.


Nice amps for sure, the 1000w/ch was nice.




I remember that....exemplary customer service.

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The big void I'm seeing is that seemingly the vast, vast majority of self-identified JTR sub owners either don't care to measure their subs or don't know how. That's fine, but these folks might consider that their more scientific counterparts really want some solid testing done on these subs by owners or 3rd parties. Why? Because Jeff has made claims about the subs that haven't been thoroughly tested and verified. A few such individuals have stepped up, such as Mojomike and others, but apparently not to the satisfaction of all questions.

Conversely, the scientific camp might consider that a lot of people just don't give a hoot about 2m gp or close mic measurements, CEA testing, etc. Many people are happy to purchase something and, as long as it meets their expectations for performance and looks, report their happiness and not be bothered for more in depth analysis. Also at play is that if someone drops a wad on sub(s), they're more likely to be defensive about its capabilities. I'm not saying this is the case, just noting that it's a psychological phenomenon. Anyway, I think some in the science camp have acknowledged this.

After that recap, I think it's a fantastic idea to have a bunch of these ID sub manufacturers get together at regional industry events and have their kit tested by independent 3rd parties in a controlled environment. In such a scenario, not only can real apples to apples comparisons be made, but customers can have the opportunity to hear a lot of separate manufacturers' equipment all in one place. Win + Win = Wins. As to whether or not that would happen, well, I think it's unlikely. But, one can hope!
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Claims made and specs posted by manufacturers don't mean much unless they can be verified. I don't want to buy something based on enthusiastic owners or by how wonderful the manufacturer appears on line, I want to see in black and white how well the sub performs. This isn't magic, and shouldn't get lumped into subjective bull like speakers do. Let's see the graphs and numbers, so we can make informed decisions.
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post #655 of 4759 Old 01-04-2011, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by diamonddelts View Post

The big void I'm seeing is that seemingly the vast, vast majority of self-identified JTR sub owners ...

...In such a scenario, not only can real apples to apples comparisons be made, but customers can have the opportunity to hear a lot of separate manufacturers' equipment all in one place. Win + Win = Wins. As to whether or not that would happen, well, I think it's unlikely. But, one can hope!

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Claims made and specs posted by manufacturers don't mean much unless they can be verified. I don't want to buy something based on enthusiastic owners or by how wonderful the manufacturer appears on line, I want to see in black and white how well the sub performs. This isn't magic, and shouldn't get lumped into subjective bull like speakers do. Let's see the graphs and numbers, so we can make informed decisions.

Good one DDs, although when harping on more scientific data and methods, it is only good form to note your sources!

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post #656 of 4759 Old 01-04-2011, 11:20 AM
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Good one DDs, although when harping on more scientific data and methods, it is only good form to note your sources!

I guess DD got an A in "Cut and Paste 101".

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post #657 of 4759 Old 01-04-2011, 11:24 AM
 
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I guess DD got an A in "Cut and Paste 101".

Touche. But I got an A + in strategic sarcasm to prove a point 102.
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post #658 of 4759 Old 01-04-2011, 11:43 AM
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I asked Jeff if would be interested in doing a subwoofer shoot out here in Cali and he said he would love to. Just need to find a place that has a large enough room and measuring equipment. My place is out as i have neither.
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post #659 of 4759 Old 01-04-2011, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I know Jeff would like to have all of his speakers and subs tested by an impartial 3rd party, but this is both expensive and time consuming. In the meantime, he builds them as fast as he can and most if not all of the owners have been pretty happy with the results.

These subjective opinions and informal measurements are nice but certainly not definitive. It would be nice to know the raw (GP or anechoic) performance characteristics of each sub/speaker, but once you introduce them into a room, all bets are off anyway.

That fact often gets lost here.

HToM

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post #660 of 4759 Old 01-04-2011, 12:55 PM
 
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While DD can be annoyingly sarcastic, he does have a point. I too would like to see some real world testing of these subs, and specifically compared to CHT, ED, EPIK, and the new HSU offering. There is so much garbage being passed around concerning sub claims that for once I'd like to hear the truth. I had a recent chat with someone who claims the Captivator specs are outright BS, and that they defy the laws of physics! Jeff, anyone, care to refute? Inquiring minds want to know!
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