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post #811 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaxtros View Post

I'm wondering if my Arcam AVR-350 receiver will put out enough voltage for the powered Captivator?

The amplifier has been calibrated to be used with home theatre receivers so you won't have any problems.
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post #812 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 06:32 AM
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Good points Penn.

Also, wrt AVR subwoofer output trim levels, I wish I remember where, however I just recently saw a chart measuring linearity of the sub out trim levels, and with the particular model tested, the distortion levels went up significantly at the top end of the spread. For example, at 0db, the distortion was .1%, at +3db it raised to .2%, and it continued to rise somewhat, however at +10, it was a surprisingly high level,..like 20% maybe.

If anyone is familiar with this article etc., please post the link, meanwhile I'll attempt to recall what it was. Could have been AVS, diy Audio, the Cult, anyway, the point is just pushing the output voltage up to maximum, isn't necessarily the best choice either.

Thanks

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post #813 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Good points Penn.

Also, wrt AVR subwoofer output trim levels, I wish I remember where, however I just recently saw a chart measuring linearity of the sub out trim levels, and with the particular model tested, the distortion levels went up significantly at the top end of the spread. For example, at 0db, the distortion was .1%, at +3db it raised to .2%, and it continued to rise somewhat, however at +10, it was a surprisingly high level,..like 20% maybe.

If anyone is familiar with this article etc., please post the link, meanwhile I'll attempt to recall what it was. Could have been AVS, diy Audio, the Cult, anyway, the point is just pushing the output voltage up to maximum, isn't necessarily the best choice either.

Thanks


Have you found measurements showing +12dB trim to have higher distortion when the AVR is around -15dB?? Also if you can find the link that would be great. I always wondered why have any trim value that did not work well enough.

THe one other reason I firmly believe in line level boost is because of gain structure issues. Its stupid to have to set the sub trim to +12dB, the volume to 0dB and all other trims to -12dB just to get max sub output while still having proper main speaker levels. We should not have to jump through hoops to get a level matched system running. Line boosters allow me to work well within the limits of any AVR I may have to use. The one room has a max 15" depth limit on the AVR too, try finding those

My Velodyne SC-1250 is far easier to work with then my QSC RMX-1850 (bridged has similar power). The SPL difference with the same trim settings is easily measured as > 10dB difference. That to me says the whole balanced (XLR) to unbalanced (RCA) does something otherwise the SPL difference for my test sub wouldn't have that big difference. Sadly the SC-1250 has a SSF at 18Hz, other then that its an amazing amp and it measured well.

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post #814 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by t4t3r View Post

You have yours up and running yet Kermie?

I will at some point tonight. Finally got the thing downstairs late last night.

Heavy!!!!
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post #815 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

The amplifier has been calibrated to be used with home theatre receivers so you won't have any problems.

Good to know! Thank you Jeff.
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post #816 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

You can measure it. Read Part 7 here:



http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post317692


look for section called "Lowdown" .

Thanks thehun. Jeff told me exactly what I wanted to know.
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post #817 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Have you found measurements showing +12dB trim to have higher distortion when the AVR is around -15dB?? Also if you can find the link that would be great. I always wondered why have any trim value that did not work well enough.

THe one other reason I firmly believe in line level boost is because of gain structure issues. Its stupid to have to set the sub trim to +12dB, the volume to 0dB and all other trims to -12dB just to get max sub output while still having proper main speaker levels. We should not have to jump through hoops to get a level matched system running. Line boosters allow me to work well within the limits of any AVR I may have to use. The one room has a max 15" depth limit on the AVR too, try finding those

My Velodyne SC-1250 is far easier to work with then my QSC RMX-1850 (bridged has similar power). The SPL difference with the same trim settings is easily measured as > 10dB difference. That to me says the whole balanced (XLR) to unbalanced (RCA) does something otherwise the SPL difference for my test sub wouldn't have that big difference. Sadly the SC-1250 has a SSF at 18Hz, other then that its an amazing amp and it measured well.

Penn, I'll find it and get it to you...

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------------------------------------
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post #818 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 02:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I saw them you are not the first to argue this incorrectly, many, many, many, many debates over the years.

You ignoring the RCA to XLR mismatch too, I have done the tests. If there isnt a problem then why all the needs recommended by sub experts like Thomas W. on the IB cult? Why does theShack have a thread explaining in great detail how to measure the voltage out if its never a problem?

I have the SPL tests, I can not produce the max SPL in room without the line level boost for one of my setups. I also have more avrs and more amps then you can imagine. There are definitely differences between the regarding output. You need to think about it a little more before you really understand why.

Hell, I posted once that I will give $500 to anyone that can solve my IB array output issue without a line level booster. I wish it was that easy to just turn it up to max voltage but its not and this a 5 year, 20 thread old discussion that is really a dead horse because some people require a samson s-convert, just be happy its not you.


Great series of posts Penn. I wholeheartedly agree.
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post #819 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 07:25 PM
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I think in some cases the gain structure issues, at least with older fully analog equipment, were more obvious with full range speakers...because you would get excessive hiss/noise if your setup wasn't correct...at least with the "lower end" equipment I've worked with.
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post #820 of 4758 Old 01-19-2011, 08:45 PM
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Well I finally got the Captivator down the stairs and hooked up. I am using a Crown XTi2000 amp. I just put it in Bridge mode and ran a few of the favorites through it. War of the Worlds, and MC.

Right out of the gate it is much better than a previous SVS PB12/plus/2 and my MFW-15.

I have a ton of work to do to figure out the AMP before going any further. It is a little more complicated than amps I have used in the past with the DSP and System Architect software that I have to get all hooked up and running.

I got the amp cheap from a friend who upgraded is DJ set up.

If anyone has used the XTi series it would be great.

The question I have for bridging is:

1. Should I use Bridge or Bridge subs?
2. What should the "Y" be set at for Bridge mode

a. CH1+CH2
b. INPUT Y
c. STEREO

The manual doesn't say much about "y" and bridging.


I am also sure the RCA to XLR mismatch is a factor and I still have to mess with what Gain to have it set at after I run Audyssey

More to come...

Thanks
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post #821 of 4758 Old 01-20-2011, 02:32 PM
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To all of you who received the powered versions of the Captivators, you are killing me!

Please post some impressions/comparisions/data/graphs on it. It would be much appreciated.

Thanks
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post #822 of 4758 Old 01-20-2011, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlm9 View Post
To all of you who received the powered versions of the Captivators, you are killing me!

Please post some impressions/comparisions/data/graphs on it. It would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Probably having too much fun enjoying them!
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post #823 of 4758 Old 01-20-2011, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I saw them you are not the first to argue this incorrectly, many, many, many, many debates over the years.

That's hardly anything intellectual or relevant that you providing here other then being dismissive based on some other threads that you took your POV. It's not like I've joined to this forum yesterday.

Quote:


You ignoring the RCA to XLR mismatch too

Really, where? It is part of the of the issue how can I ignore it? The 6db difference that balanced connection provide is part of the total 12db or so difference of the gain structure between consumer and pro gear.
Quote:


If there isnt a problem then why all the needs recommended by sub experts like Thomas W. on the IB cult? Why does theShack have a thread explaining in great detail how to measure the voltage out if its never a problem?

The Shack article actually explains why Thomas W. and other max gain advocates are looking this issue wrong, and I never said that this is never a problem, but rather it far less then people like you make it out to be.

Quote:


I have the SPL tests, I can not produce the max SPL in room without the line level boost for one of my setups. I also have more avrs and more amps then you can imagine. There are definitely differences between the regarding output. You need to think about it a little more before you really understand why.

have you? difference is about 10v between the two structure difference, however you don't need that much to drive any pro amp, nor is the goal to achieve a perfect structure balance because it won't happen no doubt about that, which is what you "MAX gain" guys don't get.

Let's not forget this conversation came about because someone claimed that most receivers produce between 3-7 V peak on average on the SW output, then you came in claim otherwise citing your own experience without offering actual voltage measurements, you offered total SPL figures which by itself means very little. The bottom line is that most receivers will offer plenty of voltage and so far that's hasn't been disputed, nor I would dispute that there is an imbalance between the two type of gain structure, but if there is enough voltage, then the rest is just pontification.

The Hun
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post #824 of 4758 Old 01-20-2011, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitaminbass View Post

I think in some cases the gain structure issues, at least with older fully analog equipment, were more obvious with full range speakers...because you would get excessive hiss/noise if your setup wasn't correct...at least with the "lower end" equipment I've worked with.

Right, that is where it is really an issue not with the SW out on a modern AV receiver especially with BM engaged which will have about 15db boost on it and you won't be hearing any hiss. Hum could be an issue though.

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post #825 of 4758 Old 01-20-2011, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post


Also, wrt AVR subwoofer output trim levels, I wish I remember where, however I just recently saw a chart measuring linearity of the sub out trim levels, and with the particular model tested, the distortion levels went up significantly at the top end of the spread. For example, at 0db, the distortion was .1%, at +3db it raised to .2%, and it continued to rise somewhat, however at +10, it was a surprisingly high level,..like 20% maybe.

If anyone is familiar with this article etc., please post the link, meanwhile I'll attempt to recall what it was. Could have been AVS, diy Audio, the Cult, anyway, the point is just pushing the output voltage up to maximum, isn't necessarily the best choice either.

Thanks

I agree, and there is really don't need to set it above 0db, unless that receiver is really wimpy, but then one should just get another if one is planning to use pro gear as well.

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post #826 of 4758 Old 01-20-2011, 10:58 PM
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Great series of posts Hun. I wholeheartedly agree.
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Great series of posts Hun. I wholeheartedly agree.

I see what you did here.
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post #828 of 4758 Old 01-21-2011, 05:30 AM
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I see what you did here.

LOL! Just having fun delts
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post #829 of 4758 Old 01-21-2011, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

That's hardly anything intellectual or relevant that you providing here other then being dismissive based on some other threads that you took your POV. It's not like I've joined to this forum yesterday.

Really, where? It is part of the of the issue how can I ignore it? The 6db difference that balanced connection provide is part of the total 12db or so difference of the gain structure between consumer and pro gear.

The Shack article actually explains why Thomas W. and other max gain advocates are looking this issue wrong, and I never said that this is never a problem, but rather it far less then people like you make it out to be.

It is far less but it exists. I never posted once that the word majority (I have 4 systems in my house, one needs it). I posted there are a times when its needed. You are posting that its never needed with is a false assumption.

Thomas W. wrong?? hehe...that is why the Shack offers the ART mods, etc. That is why the shack offers the long explanation on how to measure the voltage. If there is never a problem why even have posts explaining how to fix this mythical problem?


Quote:



have you? difference is about 10v between the two structure difference, however you don't need that much to drive any pro amp, nor is the goal to achieve a perfect structure balance because it won't happen no doubt about that, which is what you "MAX gain" guys don't get.

Let's not forget this conversation came about because someone claimed that most receivers produce between 3-7 V peak on average on the SW output, then you came in claim otherwise citing your own experience without offering actual voltage measurements, you offered total SPL figures which by itself means very little. The bottom line is that most receivers will offer plenty of voltage and so far that's hasn't been disputed, nor I would dispute that there is an imbalance between the two type of gain structure, but if there is enough voltage, then the rest is just pontification.

yes,. I used one my tests subs and two amps. FACE F1200TS and Velodyne SC-1250.

The simple fact is that the RCA to RCA consumer setup is FAR easier to deal with. The SPL using the Velodyne was measured as being much greater for the same AVR trim and VC setting. I used the Denon 2809, Yahama V663 and older Yahama V2500 in the test.

Saying SPL is meaningless is wrong, its all about SPL. When designing sub systems plugging them in and getting < 85dB tells the builder that there is something wrong. There is no other way to go about it. SPL is everything to the design without it its pointless to bother testing. Its a big assumption to tell people that they can just turn their sub trim up to +12 and their VC past 0 to get max Voltage and great SPL, there is more to the entire setup then doing that.

btw, No one has ever disputed the max voltage of any AVR. The problem exists with the unbalanced consumer output vs balance pro audio input devices. Many issues involved with them including voltage sensitivity.

Anyways, Feel free to solve any setup with out a line booster. Like I have said many times no one wants to use them and we would all pay $$$ for great minds like yours to solve the problem. Over the 6 years and 20 threads all those great minds never had a solution except..."I guess you need a line booster" ....Go figure

Remember this isnt a promotional thing, no one is convincing anyone to buy a line booster, I hope no one has too. This is a "Man, WTF!! Where is my bass and how can I solve it". The ONLY solution with the current products owned was a line booster.


This is a dead issue and I think we need to not bother the JTR owner thread with this topic.

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post #830 of 4758 Old 01-21-2011, 10:29 AM
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It is dead because you offering nothing you haven't before which is not much beyond posturing and hiding behind other threads or misrepresenting repeatedly of what I posted. I do agree that there is no need to hijack this thread any further.

The Hun
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post #831 of 4758 Old 01-21-2011, 10:41 AM
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How about some feedback from the buyers! looking forward to hearing how the powered version performs.
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post #832 of 4758 Old 01-21-2011, 10:41 AM
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How about some feedback from the buyers! looking forward to hearing how the powered version performs.

And more pictures!
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post #833 of 4758 Old 01-21-2011, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I saw them you are not the first to argue this incorrectly, many, many, many, many debates over the years.

You ignoring the RCA to XLR mismatch too, I have done the tests. If there isnt a problem then why all the needs recommended by sub experts like Thomas W. on the IB cult? Why does theShack have a thread explaining in great detail how to measure the voltage out if its never a problem?

I have the SPL tests, I can not produce the max SPL in room without the line level boost for one of my setups. I also have more avrs and more amps then you can imagine. There are definitely differences between the regarding output. You need to think about it a little more before you really understand why.

Hell, I posted once that I will give $500 to anyone that can solve my IB array output issue without a line level booster. I wish it was that easy to just turn it up to max voltage but its not and this a 5 year, 20 thread old discussion that is really a dead horse because some people require a samson s-convert, just be happy its not you.

Use a marathon Ma amp with selectable input sensitivity... problem solved
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post #834 of 4758 Old 01-22-2011, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
Use a marathon Ma amp with selectable input sensitivity... problem solved
You gotta love that adjustable operational input voltage...had they been available, had they been available a couple months ago, I would have been all over it. IMO, the big Marathon is as much a bargain as the highly touted EP4000. Now time will tell wrt reliability etc., but I'm guessing all is fine. I think this is the next "go to" product for sub-woofing enthusiasts.

Before long, DSP front ends, class D topology and small form factor will find it's way down to the enthusiast mass market sector. There are phenomenal class D pro audio products that have been out for a few years that will eventually trickle down to the knock off mfrs.

Exciting products like Powersoft's K20. This phenom is a single rack space, that employs a world wide mains input voltage, whereby it can be used on any voltage up to 300vac, dsp adjustable settings for max output voltage, max mains current draw, 16 fully parametric eq bands per channel, a variety of crossover choices, real time monitoring of every parameter imaginable and most importantly, off the chart power output capability.

Powersoft K20; 2.7kw@8ohm stereo, 5.2kw@4ohm stereo, 9kw@2ohm stereo, 10.4kw@8ohm bridged mono, 18kw@4ohm bridged mono
1 rack space, 25lbs ....and adjustable input sensitivity too!


Back OT, ...love the Marathon!

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #835 of 4758 Old 01-22-2011, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Use a marathon Ma amp with selectable input sensitivity... problem solved

Definitely, Waited 4 months though because Marathon had a supplier issue. I could not wait any more so I went with a Crest 4400.

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post #836 of 4758 Old 01-22-2011, 02:57 PM
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You can get the 4050 on ebay still
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post #837 of 4758 Old 01-22-2011, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
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Definitely, Waited 4 months though because Marathon had a supplier issue. I could not wait any more so I went with a Crest 4400.

I'm a little slow today. Painkillers and alcohol (just temporary). Are you guys saying the Marathon's wouldn't require an Art Clean Box or anything like that?

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #838 of 4758 Old 01-22-2011, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
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I'm a little slow today. Painkillers and alcohol (just temporary). Are you guys saying the Marathon's wouldn't require an Art Clean Box or anything like that?

Yup...I mean no... It wouldnt
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post #839 of 4758 Old 01-22-2011, 03:11 PM
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Thanks, Goon.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #840 of 4758 Old 01-23-2011, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

You can get the 4050 on ebay still

Needed the 5050 in August, had an order in place that was delayed until November then said Screw it.

I needed 4000Watts with my LMS5400 sealed design.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sb1 View Post

I'm a little slow today. Painkillers and alcohol (just temporary). Are you guys saying the Marathon's wouldn't require an Art Clean Box or anything like that?

Sorry to read about the painkiller/alcohol..I screwed up my shoulder on thursday moving new sub boxes around so I have had a similar combination going on Friday/Saturday


I was just talking about getting the amp period. The "definitely" was saying I wanted those amps for the power. Sorry for the confusion.

Does the JTR Captivator take 4000Watts?

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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