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post #2221 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

No I didn't hear it make any port noise even at 116dB from the listening position about 15+ feet away (carp's room is long and comparatively narrow and he sits near the back wall).

That is really good news. It seems to me that the amp was more to blame than anything else (including your room). The Cap in your room (during the G2G) didn't quite sound like a jet engine, but it had a unique, loud, and constant port noise when pushed. Luke may be able to describe it everyone better than me. We talked about it for quite some time during and after the Cap movie demo. At first we thought it was the towel under the cap making the noise (cause it was flapping), but Luke said it was most definitely the port making the noise when he went up to the Cap to put his cap (pun intended) in front of the ports.

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post #2222 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

I haven't heard any port noise in my room, even when I'm up close to it on a bass heavy scene. I've heard a bad sound from it (similar to the sounds on WOTW at the gtg) from one scene in Hot Fuzz.

That's no biggie. Every sub, no matter the quality, will make a bad sound at some point. Manufacturers can only do some much to prevent it (without severely neutering the output and/or extension of the sub).

The only three subs that I have found to never make a bad sound are the Trinity, Empire, and VTF-15H. And, all three are *severely* limited in extension (I personally believe in a compromise for higher SPL?). All three subs sound great to me though so the manufacturers are doing something right.

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post #2223 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I've spent pretty much the WHOLE day reading up on amp options. I'm more confused now than when I started.

Good luck. As you know there are so many choices out there and return shipping gets expensive very quickly. And unless you have all the amps on hand at the same time your audio memory is going to work against you.

At least you know right now that the EP4000 is much better than your current amp. And, they're relatively cheap.

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post #2224 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

That's no biggie. Every sub, no matter the quality, will make a bad sound at some point. Manufacturers can only do some much to prevent it (without severely neutering the output and/or extension of the sub).

The only three subs that I have found to never make a bad sound are the Trinity, Empire, and VTF-15H. And, all three are *severely* limited in extension (I personally believe in a compromise for higher SPL?). All three subs sound great to me though so the manufacturers are doing something right.

I know this is a JTR thread, so I apologize for the OT post up front. I'm curious to your three sub's that haven't made bad sounds (for lack of a more descriptive term). Are you getting noises (not the good kind) out of your SubM's?

If you prefer, you could respond via PM so as to not make this about a non-JTR product. I am curious as I was debating the SubM's as my next subs. Thanks in advance.

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post #2225 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Good luck. As you know there are so many choices out there and return shipping gets expensive very quickly. And unless you have all the amps on hand at the same time your audio memory is going to work against you.

At least you know right now that the EP4000 is much better than your current amp. And, they're relatively cheap.

Did the same then got a crown xls802 for $300 mint with box and hand delivered to my office (great member on here) so the ep4000 went out the window
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post #2226 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

I know this is a JTR thread, so I apologize for the OT post up front. I'm curious to your three sub's that haven't made bad sounds (for lack of a more descriptive term). Are you getting noises (not the good kind) out of your SubM's?

If you prefer, you could respond via PM so as to not make this about a non-JTR product. I am curious as I was debating the SubM's as my next subs. Thanks in advance.

It's a bit OT, but not by much. I listened to both the SubM and the Cap at the KC G2G.

Short answer is no, the SubM hasn't made any *bad* sounds in my room.

The longer answer...

Because Jeff was the most familiar with the SubM we had him control the volume dial at the G2G. To all of our surprise (I think because we didn't really realize at that point just how bad the room was) the SubM immediately kicked into compression until it was dialed down ~10dB. It didn't sound pretty, but it wasn't a "bottoming out" type sound (like the "clank" sound from the SVS). But we all instantly knew the SubM was being pushed way too hard.

To date Carp has not had any port noise or *rocking* problems with the Cap in his room like it made at the G2G. And to date I haven't been able to get the SubM to make the same sound it made at the G2G.

Because I like to know the limits of my subs, I have pushed a single SubM 10dB past the point where it stops getting any louder. At that point it just barely makes an audible sound that sounds like it's in distress. You have to put your ear up to the woofer to hear it though.

It has been stated a dozen times already, but I too agree that it's all about the room.

I hope this helps. And hopefully others that came to the KC G2G will chime in.

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post #2227 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 04:29 PM
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Let me figure out how to hook all this stuff up and I'll post some thoughts



WOW my TV is small! LOL
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post #2228 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 05:15 PM
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Counsil,

Thanks for the detailed response, it is much appreciated.

Lukeamdman,

Well, at least they're small subs.

That is an impressive display of firepower!

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post #2229 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 06:49 PM
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Alright. I spent a good four hours again researching amps tonight and then just said enough is enough. I searched for good prices on the ones I was considering and since the Behringer Inuke 3000 with DSP isn't out yet, and the Peavey IPR3000 isn't yet well vetted for specific subwoofer use yet by our community (and has no DSP until you pay nearly $500) I just went with the tried and true EP4000.

It helped that I found the EP4000 brand new for $263.10 shipped from uniquesquared.com (never ordered from them before nor even heard of them before today, but they have 9.3 out of 10.0 score on reselleratings.com which is higher than Amazon, walmart etc.)

URL is
www.uniquesquared.com

Steps to get this price (listed at $299)
1. Create account at uniquesquared.com and login to earn 500 points ($5, but creating a login is also required to get the 10% off coupon code to work)
2. Sign up for e-mail subscription to their deals and get 100 points ($1)
3. Search for EP4000 listed for $299.99 (10% off code works with other amps I looked at too)
4. Add amp to cart and use coupon sxsw2011ms for 10% off
5. Use the points you get for signing up and subscribing to their mailing list to save an additional $6 bucks to bring it down to $263.10.
6. Use UPS Ground for free shipping.
Note: You'll also earn like 600 points in the purchase that you can use for your next purchase ($6). Also if you bought three things at once you get an additional 500 points ($5)

If anybody else is looking for a good deal on a EP4000. That's the best deal I could find. I'm going to post it in slickdeals.net as well to hopefully help somebody else. I'll keep an eye on the future prices of the Peavey IPR 3000 with DSP and Behringer DSP 3000, and if they prove to be good sub amps I may sell off the EP4000 and pick up one of those instead. The power savings would be significant. The EP4000 idles at 65 to 100 watts from what I've read and consumes a couple thousand in heavy use. The Class D amps technology that the Peavey and Behringer use is supposedly much much more efficient at both load and idle. I know the KC sub gathering alone in one day raised my electricity bill by $20 that month (I pay close attention to my bills) so I imagine the more efficient amp would pay for itself over it's lifetime in electricity savings.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout

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post #2230 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 09:07 PM
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Archaea,

What are you going to use to EQ your Caps? Are you going to break down and learn REW or are you just going to let Audyssey do its thing? What are you going to use for an HP filter?

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #2231 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

It's a bit OT, but not by much. I listened to both the SubM and the Cap at the KC G2G.

Short answer is no, the SubM hasn't made any *bad* sounds in my room.

The longer answer...

Because Jeff was the most familiar with the SubM we had him control the volume dial at the G2G. To all of our surprise (I think because we didn't really realize at that point just how bad the room was) the SubM immediately kicked into compression until it was dialed down ~10dB. It didn't sound pretty, but it wasn't a "bottoming out" type sound (like the "clank" sound from the SVS). But we all instantly knew the SubM was being pushed way too hard.

To date Carp has not had any port noise or *rocking* problems with the Cap in his room like it made at the G2G. And to date I haven't been able to get the SubM to make the same sound it made at the G2G.

Because I like to know the limits of my subs, I have pushed a single SubM 10dB past the point where it stops getting any louder. At that point it just barely makes an audible sound that sounds like it's in distress. You have to put your ear up to the woofer to hear it though.

It has been stated a dozen times already, but I too agree that it's all about the room.

I hope this helps. And hopefully others that came to the KC G2G will chime in.

I'm a bit confused about this. If you push a sub to its limits, shouldn't it behave the same way no matter what room it is in? The FR and SPLs at the LP may be different, but I don't understand how a room can change a sub's behavior like this. I am not doubting what you heard in the different rooms, I am just trying to understand what could be causing the differences. Could it be possible something else in the signal chain, the blu ray demo disc or the power was causing problems?

-Mike
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post #2232 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 09:44 PM
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I'm open to suggestions on the subsonic filter. If I even need one with a single EP4000 and two caps (each sub would only be getting about 1K watts in 4ohm bridged mode)?!?!? carp said he couldn't tell a difference with his low pass cut engaged or not on his SMS (if I understood correctly, though he could tell a difference with the different EQ preset settings)

My Onkyo TX-NR1007 receiver has Audyssey Multi EQXT. But truth be told I often just find I like all Audyssey EQ calibrations turned off. I prefered both the Jamo subs and the PB13 subs with Audyssey EQ off. I just let Audyssey calibrate the distances of my equipment in the end and disengaged the rest of it.

I've yet to see that a those calibration systems are worth much unless you have the ability to move things around and in my room I really don't. That darn lowered beam, the HVAC vents and the support beam limit my seat's location to pretty much exactly where they are unless I completely redo the room and there is 0 chance of that happening for a long time to come as I just finished the room less than a year ago and have to concentrate on updating other portions of the house before I'd come back to this room. I am considering the

1) FMOD units (20 hz) - $25
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=266-246
2) Elemental designs eq.2 (5-30hz variable) - $100
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...roducts_id=657
3) Skipping the subsonic filter all together because the amp may be insufficient to drive the Captivator into distress and there is a 5hz filter in place on the EP4000 anyway to limit the terribly low stuff.
4) Waiting until a Peavey IPR 3000 or 6000 unit with a DSP or a Behringer Inuke 3000 or 6000 unit goes on a decent sale. Then I'd have the DSP and subsonic filter options built into the amplifier and more wattage to throw at the captivators!

I'm of course open to other suggestions. As far as learning REW. You want to teach me? A pizza and beer in it for you?! I've installed the software and someday when I'm not reading up on amp and subwoofer threads for 8 hours a day I'll look into it! This hobby is becoming an unhealthy obsession!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout

My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

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post #2233 of 4733 Old 07-17-2011, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhead1230 View Post

I'm a bit confused about this. If you push a sub to its limits, shouldn't it behave the same way no matter what room it is in? The FR and SPLs at the LP may be different, but I don't understand how a room can change a sub's behavior like this. I am not doubting what you heard in the different rooms, I am just trying to understand what could be causing the differences. Could it be possible something else in the signal chain, the blu ray demo disc or the power was causing problems?

-Mike

I don't understand it either, but the issue wasn't power -

Each outlet in my theater room is its own dedicated 20 amp line with 12 guage wire. We never tripped a breaker during the meet. The sub was on a dedicated outlet and the power wire was only about 12 foot long or so to my 200amp main breaker box in the same room (so it definitely is not a length issue either). The room was wired right - I know because I just did it within the last year when the room was refinished.

It could be signal????? I've read that sometimes an AVR's subwoofer outs don't match levels with pro gear and you can get greater output if you buy a component device to match the levels. Jeff's amp may not have agreed with my Onkyo -- but then the same amp was in the Seaton and I didn't hear anyone complain about its performance numbers from the meet?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout

My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

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post #2234 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 12:25 AM
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Hi Archea,
It's my first time posting. I currently own the 2011 Pro version of the Captivator and the Behringer EP 4000 and have been very happy with that combo. I think you made the right choice especially given the fact that you got the amp for only $263 and change -- great deal! I have the EP 4000 in bridged mode without any low cut filter ( per Jeff ). It was a bit confusing at first since there are contradictory ways of setting it up with regards to what the included Behringer manual says and what others, including Jeff, think is best. I went with Jeff's recommendations and so far the bass blended seamlessly with my Single 8's. Bass extension is deep. I have yet to hear weird port noise, bad notes, or any distress from the Cap. Nothing but smooth, tight bass. Amongst the Blu Ray discs I have put the Cap through its paces are WOTW, FOTP, Dark Knight, Hot Fuzz, House of Flying Daggers, Live Free or Die Hard, Cloverfield, Hell Boy-Golden Army, Pearl Harbor, Open Range, Transformers-Revenge of the Fallen, and more. One caveat is that I don't use an AVR but a pro mixer ( Yamaha MG166CX ) for my pre. Sounds great, crystal clear. Any other questions regarding cables for hook ups or settings on the amp itself, let me know. I am a newbie but following Jeff's recommendations seems to work out well for me.
Lukeandman, your set up is absolutely crazy. Hope your house is well built. I think you need to upgrade the TV, though. It looks hopelessly lost.
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post #2235 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Let me figure out how to hook all this stuff up and I'll post some thoughts



WOW my TV is small! LOL

That really looks like a lot of fun

No waste, grab a bar, get saw on.
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post #2236 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 08:18 AM
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Last night I ran the Peavey in stereo with a Cap on each channel. Specs on the amp are 1,250/ch at 8ohm. I turned the gain on the right channel all the way down so only the Cap that is now in the same placement as the 5400 was running. Dual Caps to a single 5400 isn’t very fair. Also note, the 5400 was receiving more power from the amp, closer to 2k, since it’s a 4ohm load compared to 8ohm.

My initial impressions of the Cap compared directly to my 5400 build:

1. The Cap seems very efficient. The normal listening volume on my SMS was at 17 for the 5400, and with the Cap it’s at 10. Same amp.

2. The mid-bass has more “weight” to it, more of a hit in the chest than the 5400. I wouldn’t say it’s muddy or boomy, but I’d give the edge to the Cap for mid-bass impact. For music, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Metallica, and Yeasayer sounded great. Not a landslide improvement, but again, I’d give the edge to the Cap.

3. ULF extension, I’d give the edge to the 5400. The JTR digs down to 15hz no problem, but the 5400 has a flatter response and does seem to play lower easier for the 15-20hz stuff.

4. Bass “feel”: This is a tough one. Both near shake the house apart, and the couch feels like it’s moving across the floor. I would call it a tie, but since the Cap has the edge in mid-bass slam, slight edge to the Cap here.

5. Bass clarity: For the clean and detailed bass department, again it was very very very close. The Cap is not muddy or boomy, but I would give a very slight edge to the 5400.

6. Port noise: I’m trying to be very careful with this. I don’t want to overstate or understate the JTR in this area. Is there port noise? Short answer, yes. Did I hear any port noise during music or movies, even while peaking at 120db levels, NO. On some Bass Mekanik stuff, where there is 15-20hz stuff being played and hardly anything over the mains, yes. It’s not the “wispy” port noise I’ve heard from the smaller ported subs like the Velo CHT-12 and Deftech PF15TL+, it’s more of a “whoosh”. LOL! I can’t really describe it very well. Again, during music and movies, I didn’t hear it. For movies I played scenes from The Incredibles, Tron, and Kung Fu Panda.

The Cap never once sounded strained or stressed. On the contrary I think 1,250w was just enough to show what it can do. Tonight I’m going to run a single Cap off the Peavey in bridged mode and see how it handles 3k+ RMS. I think it’s going to do great and I’ll probably end up with another 4080hz for the other Cap.

Overall I’m very impressed, especially considering the $1,500 price tag. My 5400 build was more expensive, but not my much (about $1,750). I do think the 5400 had an unfair advantage since it was receiving more power, so with the Cap getting over twice the power tonight we’ll see how it performs.
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post #2237 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 08:22 AM
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Some more info about my system:

Preamp: Emotiva USP-1 (XLR going to the SMS-1)
EQ and HP/LP Filter: Velo SMS-1 (XLR going to the Peavey)
CD Player: Oppo BDP-93
Power amp: Peavey CS 4080hz

For the comparison between the 5400 and Cap, the EQ setting on the Velo were all flat with a 15hz/24db subsonic filter engaged. Cap had no port plugs for a 20hz tune.
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post #2238 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Some more info about my system:

Preamp: Emotiva USP-1 (XLR going to the SMS-1)
EQ and HP/LP Filter: Velo SMS-1 (XLR going to the Peavey)
CD Player: Oppo BDP-93
Power amp: Peavey CS 4080hz

For the comparison between the 5400 and Cap, the EQ setting on the Velo were all flat with a 15hz/24db subsonic filter engaged. Cap had no port plugs for a 20hz tune.



Why did you HP filter the 5400 for this comparison?
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post #2239 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Why did you HP filter the 5400 for this comparison?

80hz/24db for both subs.
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post #2240 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Some more info about my system:

Preamp: Emotiva USP-1 (XLR going to the SMS-1)
EQ and HP/LP Filter: Velo SMS-1 (XLR going to the Peavey)
CD Player: Oppo BDP-93
Power amp: Peavey CS 4080hz

For the comparison between the 5400 and Cap, the EQ setting on the Velo were all flat with a 15hz/24db subsonic filter engaged. Cap had no port plugs for a 20hz tune.

Thanks very much for the comparison lukeamdman - I'm still trying to find out which way to go 5400 build (perhaps Funky Waves or diy) or JTR Cap - so I was really looking forward to reading this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Why did you HP filter the 5400 for this comparison?

Do you need the same HP filter to protect the 5400 in a PR-build?

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post #2241 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

80hz/24db for both subs.


I was talking about the 15 Hz HP filter (AKA subsonic filter). Why does the 5400 need that filter?
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post #2242 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I was talking about the 15 Hz HP filter (AKA subsonic filter). Why does the 5400 need that filter?

For a HP filter, my mains are crossed at 80hz/12db from the USP-1. That's why I crossed the subs at 80hz as well.

For the 5400, I know that at frequencies under the PR tuning frequency, distortion steadily rises. Since mine is tuned at 16hz, a 15hz subsonic filter made sense. I kept the HP/LP settings the same for both subs. Really the only thing that changed in the comparison was moving the 5400 out of the way and plugging in the Cap in its place.
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post #2243 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:27 AM
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Another note about the subsonic filter, take a look at this link:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...king-200l.html

That sub is very similar to mine and is tuned at 16hz. Look at the distortion graphs once the sub goes below 16hz. Distortion goes way up.
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post #2244 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I was talking about the 15 Hz HP filter (AKA subsonic filter). Why does the 5400 need that filter?

All resonant bass systems (such as ported and passive radiator systems) should ideally be HP'd just below tuning.
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post #2245 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Another note about the subsonic filter, take a look at this link:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...king-200l.html

That sub is very similar to mine and is tuned at 16hz. Look at the distortion graphs once the sub goes below 16hz. Distortion goes way up.



Just getting up to speed here. Waiting to read your next comparison with more power to the Captivator.
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post #2246 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

All resonant bass systems (such as ported and passive radiator systems) should ideally be HP'd just below tuning.



Maybe, and maybe not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by daco1966 View Post

Hi Archea,
It's my first time posting. I currently own the 2011 Pro version of the Captivator and the Behringer EP 4000 and have been very happy with that combo. I think you made the right choice especially given the fact that you got the amp for only $263 and change -- great deal! I have the EP 4000 in bridged mode without any low cut filter ( per Jeff ). It was a bit confusing at first since there are contradictory ways of setting it up with regards to what the included Behringer manual says and what others, including Jeff, think is best. I went with Jeff's recommendations and so far the bass blended seamlessly with my Single 8's. Bass extension is deep. I have yet to hear weird port noise, bad notes, or any distress from the Cap. Nothing but smooth, tight bass. Amongst the Blu Ray discs I have put the Cap through its paces are WOTW, FOTP, Dark Knight, Hot Fuzz, House of Flying Daggers, Live Free or Die Hard, Cloverfield, Hell Boy-Golden Army, Pearl Harbor, Open Range, Transformers-Revenge of the Fallen, and more. One caveat is that I don't use an AVR but a pro mixer ( Yamaha MG166CX ) for my pre. Sounds great, crystal clear. Any other questions regarding cables for hook ups or settings on the amp itself, let me know. I am a newbie but following Jeff's recommendations seems to work out well for me.
Lukeandman, your set up is absolutely crazy. Hope your house is well built. I think you need to upgrade the TV, though. It looks hopelessly lost.

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post #2247 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:48 AM
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If you are amp-limited, the woofer is less likely to be damaged by a lack of HP protection, but you can still waste power by attempting to drive the sub below it's tuning if there is such content present. That's why ideally you would HP even if you could get by without it. Jeff utilizes HP in the amped Captivators.
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post #2248 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daco1966 View Post

Hi Archea,
It's my first time posting. I currently own the 2011 Pro version of the Captivator and the Behringer EP 4000 and have been very happy with that combo. I think you made the right choice especially given the fact that you got the amp for only $263 and change -- great deal! I have the EP 4000 in bridged mode without any low cut filter ( per Jeff ). It was a bit confusing at first since there are contradictory ways of setting it up with regards to what the included Behringer manual says and what others, including Jeff, think is best. I went with Jeff's recommendations and so far the bass blended seamlessly with my Single 8's. ..........I am a newbie but following Jeff's recommendations seems to work out well for me.


I haven't asked Jeff specifically for setup instructions yet, but do you mind passing on his instructions to me? Were they a PM, or a seperate e-mail? Could you copy them to me either in a PM or just post there here. There are likely to be others using the EP4000 and either a single Captivator or dual Captivators like you, carp, and I. Maybe just posting the instructions here would be ideal. Thanks for speaking up!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #2249 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 10:00 AM
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I also have an an EP4000. If anyone were interested I could post some SPL numbers from a single Cap powered by a EP4000 in bridged mode.
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post #2250 of 4733 Old 07-18-2011, 10:18 AM
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of course you know we are! :P

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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