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post #2431 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 08:56 AM
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Sometimes what you feel you lost by flattening the curve, you can get back by simply running a couple db hotter. Meanwhile the sub is still flat.
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post #2432 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Luke came over tonight with his omnimic and implemented my mic2200. He squashed a big fat bubble of about 15dB at 70 to 80hz and set my rumble filter at 20hz. We rewatched some movie scenes and I'm not 100% sure I liked the change. The subs do seem more "balanced"but my jury is stiLl out. Some scenes sounded possibly a bit better, but they lacked some of the energy too!?? the rumble filter implement made an audible difference in test tones but I'm not certain how much difference in real world material. I do think the sub is more tactile feeling now after the change.

We played a bunch of demos (he got the new scuba disk)and hooked up the mic2200. These subs are much more impressive than any sub setup I have listened to at Archaea's. Much more powerful and tactile than the dual pb13u's he replaced. The Captivator is definitely one of the best ported subwoofers available right now imo. We did quite a bit of testing, playing demo's, and hooking up the mic2200.

I will say that I believe the weakest link in the sub is the ports. He has them right in front of you facing and with 20hz test tone it develops audible port distortion well before the ep4000 or driver was out of juice. We also plugged the ports for 16hz tune and could induce port distortion with 16hz tone easier. I only noticed it once during movie clip playback with War of the Worlds at spirited levels.

Ran out of time and need to play around some more with tunes and exactly where to set subsonic filter and throw audyssey in the mix. Might try running audyssey with the eq engaged and then adding the subsonic filter on after with some testing to see if better subsonic filter below 20hz. To me after adding in mic2200 the bass sounded excellent. I didn't hear any port involvement with material and seemed to have better balanced presentation. Your place has never sounded so good, give the balanced midbass a week before making a decision.

Anyways here is a graph both without audyssey no smoothing, black 16hz tune before adding in mic2200, green 20hz tune with mic2200 with hpf/subsonic filter at 20 and eq used. I didn't save ones we looked at before doing any changes. I do know that audyssey did very little with the large midbass punch, but did bring down the bump right before 20hz.

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post #2433 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 11:54 AM
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Scratch what I said about a house curve. I think Archaea likes the midbass punch much more than the ULFs. Not using the 2200 may simply provide him with his preference. Nothing wrong with that.

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post #2434 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 12:14 PM
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Luke,

Regarding the port noise, could you compare it to what we heard at the KC G2G?

I was convinced (I guess I convinced myself? ) that the Behringer amp wouldn't have the juice to reproduce the port noise. Nonetheless, I don't think a 20Hz HPF is worth the trade off of reducing port noise. Does the 2200 allow for a lower HPF? 12-15 Hz would be ideal IMHO.

I am still surprised that the powered Cap made any port noise at all since it was DSP controlled. I would have thought that Jeff would have encountered the port noise in his testing and prevented it via DSP. Especially since it was very easy to reproduce. Now that you guys were able to reproduce it with the Behringer I agree that the port design is to blame.

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post #2435 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Luke,

Regarding the port noise, could you compare it to what we heard at the KC G2G?

I was convinced (I guess I convinced myself? ) that the Behringer amp wouldn't have the juice to reproduce the port noise. Nonetheless, I don't think a 20Hz HPF is worth the trade off of reducing port noise. Does the 2200 allow for a lower HPF? 12-15 Hz would be ideal IMHO.

I am still surprised that the powered Cap made any port noise at all since it was DSP controlled. I would have thought that Jeff would have encountered the port noise in his testing and prevented it via DSP. Especially since it was very easy to reproduce. Now that you guys were able to reproduce it with the Behringer I agree that the port design is to blame.

It was not near as bad as at the GTG but was easily noticed with test tones. I agree with you and thats why I thought I would bring it up, is that I didn't expect the behringer to be able to induce port noise. I agree that the hpf should be lowered a bit, we were just hooking up the mic2200 and looked at the phone and it was already 10:00, so had to cut it short. I told archaea today to try 20hz tone and write down level when it becomes audible, then crank it up quick until get clipping light to come on with the ep4000 to see level difference. This would be an easy test that others could try as well because the behringer shouldn't have enough oomph to cause any problems with that driver in short testing.

It may be very close to the max when getting any port turbulence. I also believe the only time I noticed it during playback is when he had audyssey on, which may have slightly boosted just below tuning, and he had dynamic eq on, which we tested boosts his low end by like 10db. Without the dynamic eq enabled and with hpf ~16, I doubt it would ever be noticable with real world material even at very high levels. Archaea really likes that midbass. He already was running subs turned up so he had between 60-80hz like 20db hot.
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post #2436 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 02:58 PM
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Midbass doesn't shake my projector screen or blow my hair back. I like the caps ability to go low too and ultimately one shouldn't consider for a second that 20hz range low bass is absent on these captivators! I do like midbass apparently, (as I did enjoy the previous pro Yamaha dual 18" sub for music --- though NOT more than even a single Captivator) but I don't prefer midbass at the expense or lack of low bass. The caps do what the two 18inch emminance drivers in the Yamaha cw218v could never do! --- that is to say provide vicreal levels of low end chair and house shaking bass in my room! Sum it up by saying I want to feel the tactile bass through the spectrum - I don't revel in midbass only! Luke ill try your amp clip suggestion and report back, but it'll likely be tomorrow as I have to help someone move tonight and by the time I get home my daughter may be asleep and 20hz test tones at reference + volumes are no typical lullaby!

I don't want the port noise blown out of proportion - at least in my configuration. Correct me if I'm wrong luke, but the incident of port noise Luke mentions we heard outside of the test tones was before we messed with any of the settings for the night. The setup was simply Onkyo NR1007 -> Behringer EP4000 amp with no low cut. We watched some demos and we watched the the pod emergence scene of War of the Worlds - We were listening to War of the Worlds at -5 on the receiver, with the subs cranked several dB hot over matched and audyssey eq and audyssey equalizer in use (so an additional couple + dBs hot from that since I was still below reference on the main volume knob), and the EP4000 amplifier was occasionally lighting up the clipping light (not solid). The sound was amazing --- best I've personally ever heard reproduced (i've not turned that clip up that loud before on my current setup)...I didn't hear the 1x port noise that Luke mentioned he heard during that scene. Bear in mind the Mic2200 was not in place and thus there was no HPF of any sort engaged. I didn't turn it up louder than -5 on the AVR because my clip limiter on the Behringer amp was disabled and I know a steady clip light will definitely make the subs distort. I'm not saying Luke didn't hear port noise, I just know I didn't recognize it. The only other port noise we heard that I know of was with test tones...

So possibly port noise one time at reference + subwoofer levels with no low cut filter engaged and a tuning frequency of 20hz on the subs during the WOTW pod emergence scene known to contain some of the lowest hz content reproduction of any movie scene available. I think it's forgivable -- of course I didn't even hear it -- sooooooo it didn't bother me. :P

On test tone clips absolutely you can hear port noise without the MIC 2200 (perhaps even with --- I've not played with it much to verify), but I personally haven't noticed it in real world material. When we played with the 15hz tune we just stuffed a towel in one of the ports on each sub, when we played a 15hz test tone there was port noise! Again, I never heard anything like that in real world material, and I can't even hear a 15hz test tone's sound - just the port noise and vibration in the room when the test tone is cranked. My ears seem to stop hearing tones at about 17hz or so. By the time you are hearing port noise the room is REALLY shaking.


Luke if I said anything incorrectly -- point it out, but that's how I remember it...though I do admit to being too tired yesterday to be of much good.

I do plan on giving the MIC2200 settings you put together for me last night a good honest try...I do see the value in a minidsp or multi band parametric eq after seeing how just the single band in the MIC2200 was able to really flatten that hump at 70-80hz.

Which unit are you using now for that purpose counsil? I know you've been through several lately, but can't remember what models you've tried?

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post #2437 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 03:10 PM
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When using the Behringer MIC2200, it's helpful to verify the settings with measurements. It's entirely possible, too much energy is being removed then may be desirable.

Be mindful of a these aspects of the MIC2200 that I've discovered in my rig; the MIC2200, with the HP filter set at 20hz results in the attenuation beginning at ~35hz, -3db@25hz, -5db@20hz. Additionally, it only attenuated a maximum of about 10db@15hz,...and oddly maintained that and seemingly not increasing any further,...as a normal filter may behave.

Also, utilizing the 12hz HP setting, the unit began attenuating in the high 20's, and was -3db@20hz, -5db@17hz, -7db@12hz, and I could see a maximum of about 10db down at 10hz.


20hz HP dial setting
-3db@25hz
-5db@20hz
-10db@15hz


12hz HP dial setting
-3db@20hz
-5db@17hz
-7db@12hz
-10db@10hz



Quote:


Does the 2200 allow for a lower HPF? 12-15 Hz would be ideal IMHO

A dial setting of 12hz is the lowest.


Also,

Quote:


I wish there was a way to a/b the settings more quickly. With me refrence flat doesn't necessarily = my preference.

The EQ in/out switch on the MIC2200 should enable an a/b comparo.


Quote:


I would have thought that Jeff would have encountered the port noise in his testing and prevented it via DSP

Perhaps, limiting the product would un-necessarily restrict overall output. In some rooms, with latitude with sub placement options, one could address the port noise via placement,...thereby retaining capability, and mitigating port noise. So maybe leaving the capability inherent to the design, allows the end user to decide,..lesser of two evils?


I'd agree, it's likely one of the most potent vented subs for HT. eD makes the big single 18 (and it's been out for quite some time), and the low tuned double 18. Even though I prefer sealed, it'd be cool to see a shootout/comparo done proper.


Good luck

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
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(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
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post #2438 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post
20hz HP dial setting
-3db@25hz
-5db@20hz
-10db@15hz


12hz HP dial setting
-3db@20hz
-5db@17hz
-7db@12hz
-10db@10hz
Archaea,

Based on the above this is what I recommend. 1) Use the 12Hz setting on the 2200 (if needed at all in the first place), 2) run Audyssey on your Onkyo, and 3) sit back and enjoy.

I don't recommend that you use any EQ features of the 2200 if you run Audyssey first. Even then I wouldn't use the 2200 for EQ'ing unless you have the gear to measure exactly what's going on. That includes what no EQ looks like, how Audyssey changes things, and what else can be done without over boosting or making things worse.

Just my $.02.

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post #2439 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
We were listening to War of the Worlds at -5 on the receiver, with the subs cranked several dB hot over matched and audyssey eq and audyssey equalizer in use (so an additional couple + dBs hot from that since I was still below reference on the main volume knob), and the EP4000 amplifier was occasionally lighting up the clipping light (not solid).
If this is the only time your Caps have made port noise (outside of sine waves), and you didn't even hear it anyway , then you are golden.

Quote:
Bear in mind the Mic2200 was not in place and thus there was no LPF of any sort engaged.
Do you mean HPF?

A LPF allows frequencies below the threshold value to play (ie pass through the filter) and attenuates the frequencies higher. Common values are 80-120Hz. Your receiver should be taking care of this for you. Any LPF on your 2200 should be disabled if possible. Otherwise it needs to be set to its highest value.

Quote:
Which unit are you using now for that purpose counsil?
I haven't ever used a device for LPF/HPF purposes. My subwoofer amps take care of the HPF and my receiver takes care of the LPF.

Quote:
I know you've been through several lately, but can't remember what models you've tried?
I use to have an Audyssey Sub Equalizer. It was able to set individual trims and delays for two subs and then EQ them as *one*. I got rid of it when I got my Denon 4311 as it has that technology built in (they call it SubEQ HT ).

In the end, I wasn't happy with the SubEQ HT's ability to set individual trims and delays for *all* my subs. I am now using a DCX2496 to set individual trims and delays for my *four* subs. I am not using the DCX for anything other than that. For my purposes I disable both the HPF and LPF on the DCX.

In case anyone is interested, the DCX can set individual delays, trims, and phases settings for up to 6 subs. It can even do it automatically if you connect up a mic (such as an ECM8000).

I don't recommend the DCX2496 to you because its lowest HPF is 20Hz. Your 2200 has a 12Hz HPF setting. That is what I recommend you use for your Caps if a HPF is needed at all. Didn't you tell me that Jeff stated a HPF isn't even needed with an EP4000?

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post #2440 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 05:22 PM
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Archaea: I agree. If you know archaea you know he doesn't hold back. His level control for the most punishing demo scenes is when he is starting to flip the clip lights of the amp. I only barely noticed it once and only because I was listening for it as a comparison to the gtg during wotw. After the demo I thought I heard a bit of port noise and we tried some tones. This is when it was apparent and I said to turn off the dynamic eq. Bam output went down and sound dissappeared. This is when we tested and could see just how much boost it was doing. These subs have massive amounts of output down low and all around awe inspiring experience at your place. I was having so much fun I didn't realize it was so late by the time we even got the mic2200 out. I got home thinking man I wish we could have done some more. You have spent a lot of time with it without a hpf and like Counsil said you haven't noticed it once so just turn aud back on and disable the eq and turn the hpf on 12hz. We can take additional measurements sometime soon!

FOH: Another informative post. We just briefly played with it and noticed it was having an affect above but didn't realize it was that much.
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post #2441 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 06:40 PM
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well

son of a gun...

I think I blew something up in the EP4000 amp.

I got home and my wife and daughter were out shopping and I figured I could really let loose on some tunes...Cranked up some dredmau5 type music and it sounded awesome! Played it at similar levels as to when the St. Louis guy who bought my PB13 ultra pair was here when his dB meter measured 125dB from the listening position with my Caps -- barely blinking the clip light on occassion. :P I don't have an SPL meter, but suffice to say it was LOUD again tonight!

I went outside to see if the neighbors would be bothered by it because my basement is a walkout basement and for the most part the sound isn't bad outside because nearly 3 walls of the basement are underground. When I got outside I broke out in a stupid grin because I realized JUST how loud it was outside.... It was like most theatres sound ---- OUTSIDE my house!

All the sudden the bass cut out as I was walking back towards the house. Music had only been playing for a couple minutes at this point. The EP4000 had no lights. AVR is still playing - MIC2200 still going, projector still on.

Found out the EP4000 had flipped it's internal breaker.

ok

Flipped the breaker on the back of the EP4000 and it lit for a second and then flipped again. Did this several times and it won't stay flipped. I have it hooked to a Monster Power HTS 5100 MKII and so I unplugged it from there and plugged it directly into a APC Smart UPS - 2200VA that I use for my projector, HTPC, and sump pump. It tripped the APC UPS unit and the HTPC and projector instantly lost power.....beep beep beep, and then I realized it had tripped the 20 amp circuit the APC lives on as well. So I went to the house circuit box and flipped the 20 amp circuit back on. APC stopped beeping.

Now I'm puzzled.

The EP4000 isn't hot, it wasn't running long enough to build up much heat, the air out from the front wasn't blowing hot yet after a single song as I checked before walking outside.

I guess I'll wait a while and see if it comes back to life, in case something inside is hot, but hadn't built up enough heat to make the external case hot yet --- but it isn't a good sign that it's tripping with no signal going to even at minimum gain levels now right out of the gate eh?

I verified nothing is touching anything inappropriately in the rear of the amp...

shucks....I've done the fan mod on my EP4000 and so voided the warranty, but this is the first trouble I've had out of it -- first time it tripped anything.

*********************

guess I need more amp.

*********************
This episode really speaks to the prowness of the Monster Power HTS 5100 MKII. Think about that. Apparently the EP4000 is full short circuit right now because it immediately trips it's own internal breaker, immediatey trips the 20 amp circuit that the mighty APC 2200VA UPS resides on, yet does not trip the 20amp circuit the monster power HTS 5100 unit is on. The HTS 5100 internal circuitry is protecting all the other components connected --- and protecting the house 20 amp circuit. In fact it didn't even shut down any of the other components on the HTS 5100 despite me trying to reset that EP4000 internal breaker a half dozen times on the back of the EP4000, before moving the power cord into the APC 2200 unit. First try on the APC 2200 - the APC bellies ups and blows the 20 amp house circuit and powers down every other component connected to the APC unit. --- So much for folk saying a quality UPS is just as good as a power conditioner --- That didn't prove here and my APC 2200VA unit is about as good as they come with a true true sine wave - one of the APC Smart UPS models!

HTS 5100 MKII model -
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-10-Out...4410078&sr=1-1

Smart APC UPS 2200VA model -
http://www.amazon.com/APC-Smart-UPS-.../dp/B00076OZRQ

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post #2442 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post
Do you mean HPF?
yes! That's what I meant...I'll correct my post.

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post #2443 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 08:29 PM
 
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Wow, you managed to blow up your amp, I feel for your neighbors! At least you know the Captivators won't be the first to give in.
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post #2444 of 4733 Old 08-26-2011, 10:17 PM
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@ Archaea. Time to get the new Inuke 6000 DSP!!! 3000W per channel @ 4 ohm. I already order one. Expected shipping date Sept 9th.
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post #2445 of 4733 Old 08-27-2011, 06:34 AM
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That sucks Archea. I wonder if you really do need 1 ep4000 for each Captivator.

Question for Luke and Archea. How would you guys compare Archea's bass in his room to Luke's bass in his room? I'm guessing Luke's room still wins but I was curious what you guys thought.
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post #2446 of 4733 Old 08-27-2011, 06:47 AM
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tough question - carp...

As far as SPL, it's not that different in my mind at this point. Luke may have a different opinion I didn't ask him, but I get that very tactile sensation from my seats, I get the air movement over your legs and face, and it's enough to make your whole body shake. He's attending a wedding this weekend out of town and may not be able to be around a pc for the next couple days.


*****
From only a couple minutes, about 1.5 songs of that loud nonsense last night my ears feel pretty hollow this morning - not ringing, but a hollow feeling, like how you feel after you've been playing the music to loud in a car with a couple of 12s or 15's the next day. I know - not wise to do that, but fun...standing directly in front of the cap listening for distortion (I could hear none) before I walked outside, when it is playing that loud is, as you know --- quite a extraordinary experience!

The EP4000 is apparently truly dead...i've tried a few more things this morning, unhooked everything from the back, it won't come on more than a blip of the lights before throwing the internal fuse, or tripping the breaker.

Any ideas?

I'll go find an EP4000 thread to post in as well.

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post #2447 of 4733 Old 08-27-2011, 08:14 AM
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Hmmm sure sounds like something is up with it. For future reference there is no reason to plug a pro amp or other large amplifier into a conditioner or surge protector. If anything that can handicap it when it needs to draw the most power. Have you tried plugging it straight into the wall? I doubt this will help as it seems like something is damaged but you never know. Good luck.
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post #2448 of 4733 Old 08-27-2011, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Hmmm sure sounds like something is up with it. For future reference there is no reason to plug a pro amp or other large amplifier into a conditioner or surge protector. If anything that can handicap it when it needs to draw the most power. Have you tried plugging it straight into the wall? I doubt this will help as it seems like something is damaged but you never know. Good luck.

I tried that too. no joy.

My neck of the woods in Kansas City has power issues, lots of brownouts, surges, and power outages. I don't trust expensive electronics directly in the wall around here. There are multiple power issues each month for whatever reason. For instance in the last two weeks both of my smart APC units and my monster power conditioner show high voltage condition lights (that's a new one around here). The monster power shows between 127 and 128 volts from the wall, and the UPS are constantly running in the mode where they are regulating the incoming ac voltage to drop it back down. I've not gotten around to calling the power company about it yet, but it's always something around here. We still have above ground wiring everywhere and it's old and trees are constantly causing issues. During half the thunderstorms around here we lose power. It's pretty bad. I happened to be watching a movie one time when the power kicked off and when it kicked on I was watching the Monster Power unit and it momentarily flashed a few hundred volts of surge when the power came back on!!!!! :O So I just feel more comfortable having my gear somewhat protected. Another example is when I have my projector plugged into the wall directly during the course of a movie there is apparent flickering, when plugged into the UPS, or the Monster Power filter - that's all but eliminated completely.


The HTS 5100 has a outlet labeled for AMP and that's the one I'm using --- from everything I'm read it's designed exactly for this purpose. The monster power unit hasn't completely reset itself, before the internal circuit on the EP4000 trips, so it apparently can pass the power... As to potentially limiting dynamics --- The monster power unit has a power used readout and I rarely see more than 10 or 12 amps outbound (average - not showing peaks) when pounding the system, I suppose I possibly may be missing something, but I know no better.

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post #2449 of 4733 Old 08-27-2011, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I tried that too. no joy.

My neck of the woods in Kansas City has power issues, lots of brownouts, surges, and power outages. I don't trust expensive electronics directly in the wall around here. There are multiple power issues each month for whatever reason. For instance in the last two weeks both of my smart APC units and my monster power conditioner show high voltage condition lights (that's a new one around here). The monster power shows between 127 and 128 volts from the wall, and the UPS are constantly running in the mode where they are regulating the incoming ac voltage to drop it back down. I've not gotten around to calling the power company about it yet, but it's always something around here. We still have above ground wiring everywhere and it's old and trees are constantly causing issues. During half the thunderstorms around here we lose power. It's pretty bad. I happened to be watching a movie one time when the power kicked off and when it kicked on I was watching the Monster Power unit and it momentarily flashed a few hundred volts of surge when the power came back on!!!!! :O So I just feel more comfortable having my gear somewhat protected. Another example is when I have my projector plugged into the wall directly during the course of a movie there is apparent flickering, when plugged into the UPS, or the Monster Power filter - that's all but eliminated completely.


The HTS 5100 has a outlet labeled for AMP and that's the one I'm using --- from everything I'm read it's designed exactly for this purpose. The monster power unit hasn't completely reset itself, before the internal circuit on the EP4000 trips, so it apparently can pass the power... As to potentially limiting dynamics --- The monster power unit has a power used readout and I rarely see more than 10 or 12 amps outbound (average - not showing peaks) when pounding the system, I suppose I possibly may be missing something, but I know no better.

Archea, some thoughts -

I don't see the need to run a HPF on these Caps, though I suppose it does save the amp from having to dig deep for those sub 20hz passages in movies/music, and I guess it does keep the Caps from unloading below tuning during those selections. With all the different attenuators in the mix, from the receiver to the different Audyssey features to the Mic2200 to the EP4000, you have a lot of variance in the signal chain, and that's problematic. I feel like disabling Audyssey for the subs completely, getting a 2x4 Balanced MiniDSP for HPF (even if it's not functioning perfectly) and EQ, and turning the knobs all the way to the right on the EP4000 would simplify things considerably.

As for the port noise, are you certain that's what it is? Could you describe it a bit more for me? I can hear an audible difference between port noise and the driver making noise. I can get the driver to make noise if I run sine waves significantly below tuning, but I'm hard pressed to get the port to make noise during program material. I'm not doubting your diligence in attribution, per se, but find it unusual that there is so much variance in our subs. Perhaps try to revisit this situation and attempt to localize the sound you're attributing to port noise just to make sure? For me, it sounds like the driver is flapping like a sail in the breeze, or slapping very lightly against something, and it's most definitely the driver, not the port(s), making the offending sounds, as verified by wearing pro earplugs and going right up to the cabinet and listening for where the sound is emanating from.

I have, however, heard port chuffing in excessively high output situations during sine wave testing above tuning, but it's very rare. But this is different from the noise I can reproduce from the sub's driver during certain high output situations below tuning. Also, stuffing towels in a port isn't the same as having a port plug. Do you have the port plugs? I know that with improper seating of the port plug, I can get the port to make noise on lots of material at moderately high output levels, and this is definitely caused by the port plug not making a proper seal. It's alternately a whistling or a wheezing noise.

Though I doubt it's contributing to your issue with the EP4000, in the future take Ricci's advice and don't run pro amps off the power conditioner or UPS. They're ok to run straight from the wall, even in areas with crap power delivery. And I understand what situation you're in - I lived in KCK off of N. 81st Terrace and in Lenexa off 91st St. for quite awhile. KCK had terrible, terrible power by comparison, with exactly the same problems you mentioned.

Good luck on the issues you're experiencing! I hope they're resolved quickly and fruitfully. I'm still moving in and unpacking all my stuff down here in the desert, and have not as such had time to dial everything in yet. Hell, I don't even have my center channel implemented due to having nowhere to place it. I'm gonna build a wall shelf and hang it below that to create the proper imaging location above the TV. Grad school started on Monday and has me insanely busy. I've been getting to bed by 9 or 10pm every night!
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post #2450 of 4733 Old 08-27-2011, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I tried that too. no joy.

My neck of the woods in Kansas City has power issues, lots of brownouts, surges, and power outages. I don't trust expensive electronics directly in the wall around here. There are multiple power issues each month for whatever reason. For instance in the last two weeks both of my smart APC units and my monster power conditioner show high voltage condition lights (that's a new one around here). The monster power shows between 127 and 128 volts from the wall, and the UPS are constantly running in the mode where they are regulating the incoming ac voltage to drop it back down. I've not gotten around to calling the power company about it yet, but it's always something around here. We still have above ground wiring everywhere and it's old and trees are constantly causing issues. During half the thunderstorms around here we lose power. It's pretty bad. I happened to be watching a movie one time when the power kicked off and when it kicked on I was watching the Monster Power unit and it momentarily flashed a few hundred volts of surge when the power came back on!!!!! :O So I just feel more comfortable having my gear somewhat protected. Another example is when I have my projector plugged into the wall directly during the course of a movie there is apparent flickering, when plugged into the UPS, or the Monster Power filter - that's all but eliminated completely.


The HTS 5100 has a outlet labeled for AMP and that's the one I'm using --- from everything I'm read it's designed exactly for this purpose. The monster power unit hasn't completely reset itself, before the internal circuit on the EP4000 trips, so it apparently can pass the power... As to potentially limiting dynamics --- The monster power unit has a power used readout and I rarely see more than 10 or 12 amps outbound (average - not showing peaks) when pounding the system, I suppose I possibly may be missing something, but I know no better.

I performed a quick search and couldn't find anything about this power conditioner being "non power limiting". Therefore I have to assume it IS power limiting (even the outlet labeled for AMP) and don't recommend you load it with more than what will ever hit it's *peak* power handling capabilities.

If memory serves me correctly a 20-amp circuit breaker can handle peaks of ~23 amps and ~16 amps continuous. Your power conditioner *should* be able to handle this at it's MSRP though.

Never argue with an idiot; they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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post #2451 of 4733 Old 08-27-2011, 02:33 PM
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post #2452 of 4733 Old 08-27-2011, 03:45 PM
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Very nice man...

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #2453 of 4733 Old 08-27-2011, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post
Archea, some thoughts -

I don't see the need to run a HPF on these Caps, though I suppose it does save the amp from having to dig deep for those sub 20hz passages in movies/music, and I guess it does keep the Caps from unloading below tuning during those selections. With all the different attenuators in the mix, from the receiver to the different Audyssey features to the Mic2200 to the EP4000, you have a lot of variance in the signal chain, and that's problematic. I feel like disabling Audyssey for the subs completely, getting a 2x4 Balanced MiniDSP for HPF (even if it's not functioning perfectly) and EQ, and turning the knobs all the way to the right on the EP4000 would simplify things considerably.

As for the port noise, are you certain that's what it is? Could you describe it a bit more for me? I can hear an audible difference between port noise and the driver making noise. I can get the driver to make noise if I run sine waves significantly below tuning, but I'm hard pressed to get the port to make noise during program material. I'm not doubting your diligence in attribution, per se, but find it unusual that there is so much variance in our subs. Perhaps try to revisit this situation and attempt to localize the sound you're attributing to port noise just to make sure? For me, it sounds like the driver is flapping like a sail in the breeze, or slapping very lightly against something, and it's most definitely the driver, not the port(s), making the offending sounds, as verified by wearing pro earplugs and going right up to the cabinet and listening for where the sound is emanating from.

I have, however, heard port chuffing in excessively high output situations during sine wave testing above tuning, but it's very rare. But this is different from the noise I can reproduce from the sub's driver during certain high output situations below tuning. Also, stuffing towels in a port isn't the same as having a port plug. Do you have the port plugs? I know that with improper seating of the port plug, I can get the port to make noise on lots of material at moderately high output levels, and this is definitely caused by the port plug not making a proper seal. It's alternately a whistling or a wheezing noise.

Though I doubt it's contributing to your issue with the EP4000, in the future take Ricci's advice and don't run pro amps off the power conditioner or UPS. They're ok to run straight from the wall, even in areas with crap power delivery. And I understand what situation you're in - I lived in KCK off of N. 81st Terrace and in Lenexa off 91st St. for quite awhile. KCK had terrible, terrible power by comparison, with exactly the same problems you mentioned.

Good luck on the issues you're experiencing! I hope they're resolved quickly and fruitfully. I'm still moving in and unpacking all my stuff down here in the desert, and have not as such had time to dial everything in yet. Hell, I don't even have my center channel implemented due to having nowhere to place it. I'm gonna build a wall shelf and hang it below that to create the proper imaging location above the TV. Grad school started on Monday and has me insanely busy. I've been getting to bed by 9 or 10pm every night!
I don't know how to describe it really - it definitely seems like port noise though because there is no mechanical sound whatsoever with it. It's like air whooshing in the ports and you can tell it's TONS of air because you can feel massive movements of air from the ports...Again I've never heard it during real world material - only steady frequency test tones, 15hz, and 20hz at extremely loud volumes, but I don't see how it could be driver related without any noise but air whooshing. It doesn't bother me in the least, because I don't hear it when I'm playing clips at reference + levels with the subs running hot. Test tones are kinda silly for anything but finding creaks/rattles/and squeaks in my room and I've got so many of those I just sorta hold my white surrender flag high. I don't have the real port plugs yet, Jeff is sending me a pair.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout

My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

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post #2454 of 4733 Old 08-28-2011, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post

Just for fun a took a video of the Cap today

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k_ZZdVpU84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvwdKgmjo6w

I may have missed it (or read and now forgot), but how do the two subs compare? Do they play nice together? Looks like they are both beating the hell out of you.
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post #2455 of 4733 Old 08-28-2011, 02:16 PM
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I may have missed it (or read and now forgot), but how do the two subs compare? Do they play nice together? Looks like they are both beating the hell out of you.

I think they're a near perfect combo.

In my room at the primary LP, the 5400 by itself lacked the mid-bass punch I like for music. The Cap by itself had awesome mid-bass punch, but didn't extend to 15hz as effortlessly as the 5400. It does extend that low with some massive SPL mind you, but at more of a curve than the 5400.

With both I'm as happy as a clam
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post #2456 of 4733 Old 08-29-2011, 05:46 AM
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lukeamdman, can you please sharing more videos of the Cap's capability in home theater performance? such as playing some LFE scenes with the Cap
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post #2457 of 4733 Old 08-29-2011, 06:11 AM
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To all those folks thinking about purchasing a passive Captivator (not a powered Captivator) and have concerns about possible port noise, I have the solution. Tell Jeff to build you a Captivator native tuned to 15hz. You will lose some output at 20hz, but will gain 5hz deeper extension and will have less port noise.
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post #2458 of 4733 Old 08-29-2011, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

To all those folks thinking about purchasing a passive Captivator (not a powered Captivator) and have concerns about possible port noise, I have the solution. Tell Jeff to build you a Captivator native tuned to 15hz. You will lose some output at 20hz, but will gain 5hz deeper extension and will have less port noise.

Mike,

Since there hasn’t been an A/B comparison, to my knowledge, of the native tuned 15hz and 20hz Caps, I’m not sure you can state as fact one has less/more port noise than the other.

I’m also not hearing any complaints from owners about port noise being an issue. Most have said during high level sign wave tests it’s noticeable, but haven’t heard it during music or movies at any listening level.

Just my .02 cents.
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post #2459 of 4733 Old 08-29-2011, 07:25 AM
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I'm just basing it on that I don't get quite the same gusts of wind from the ports like I've seen demonstrated on the vids with the 20hz tuned subs. Wind like that typically means extreme air velocity which can mean port noise. I probably would get a lot of wind with heavy 15hz content, but there is simply much less 15hz content than there is 20hz content on average.
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post #2460 of 4733 Old 08-29-2011, 10:05 AM
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Just from my own experience, I've yet to hear any port noise from my passive Cap. NO sine waves, but I've REALLY pushed it on some tough material.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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