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post #271 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 06:05 AM
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Well, Paradigm's Reference subs are for people that want high output and low frequency extension from a small enclosure. So they cram as much driver area as possible in compact enclosures, maximize excursion, then stuff in massive amps with lots of EQ to control distortion.

If enclosure size is a priority, I'm not sure you can do any better than the Paradigm Reference offerings via the DIY route. Not to mention the Paradigm Reference subs have very aesthetically pleasing enclosures (shape and veneer), that 99% of DIYers cannot duplicate.

If you can accommodate huge enclosures, then you can get far more boom for your buck via DIY or ID. Those of us with limited space and/or a wife, are more than willing to accept Paradigm's compromises to get the best bass available under our constraints.
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post #272 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJuggler View Post

PBK is really just ARC specifically for the subwoofer, so if you only have one subwoofer, that is a very reasonable statement. For multiple subs, you may want to run PBK first on each sub to independently deal with each sub's modal room excitations, which can differ dramatically. In general, however, I would not recommend running layers of EQ on top of each other, especially when said EQ commits the cardinal sin of overdriving the nulls. (PBK raises nulls, and I assume ARC does as well.) The best solution is to acoustically damped the room, and place the subs properly.

Another way to look at it it that if PBK is run first, ARC can use its finite correction capabilities in other areas of need. I think I will try both ways and listen. I haven't read the PBK documentation yet, but I hope there is a way to clear the data that is uploaded to the unit.

John
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post #273 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netroamer View Post

Another way to look at it it that if PBK is run first, ARC can use its finite correction capabilities in other areas of need.

Hm, I wasn't aware of ARC's limitations. If I had ARC and PBK, then personally I wouldn't let both of them make adjustments to the same frequencies. The best way to think of multiple layers of EQ is to have a proper understanding of linear systems. There is no free lunch with using EQ, but most consumers just let it "do its thing" and assume its automatically "better", without any real clue whats going on, and the corresponding tradeoffs. It really makes me cringe sometimes.

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Originally Posted by netroamer View Post

I hope there is a way to clear the data that is uploaded to the unit.

Yes, there is an "Erase" button in the PBK software that will remove all EQ within the sub.


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Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

with lots of EQ to control distortion

This is one of those "cringe" moments.

Distortion is caused by non-linear behavior introduced at large drive levels, which is dictated entirely by physics. EQ can't do ANYTHING to reduce distortion.

EQ can, however, create distortion if it attempts to "fix" a null by overdriving the woofer at these frequencies. I ran into this myself when I was making PBK adjustments with the sub corner loaded. I fired up Serenity, and my Sub12 bottomed out for a couple seconds at the beginning of the movie, and I wasn't anywhere near max volume. Not a good thing. This is one reason why, for example, trying to fix a 30dB null with EQ is like trying to stop hemorrhaging with a band-aid.

Bottom line: your average EQ user rushes in where angels fear to tread, because they don't know any better.

Quote:


If enclosure size is a priority, I'm not sure you can do any better than the Paradigm Reference offerings via the DIY route.

It depends on your design goals. It is well known that the air inside the enclosure acts as a mass-spring system. At some low enough frequency, the air can be treated like a spring, which inhibits the cone movement. Multiple drivers exacerbates this issue, so it may be possible to make a subwoofer with better LF extension, in the same sized enclosure, with a single larger driver. And that's without using tuning via ports/passive radiators.

I'm not saying that the Sub1/Sub2 aren't great products, they just target a very specific set of design goals. Their Sub12/15/25 line, also within their Reference series, target a slightly different set of design goals.

So, that all being said, I'de love to see the measured performance of the Sub1/Sub2. I'm particularly curious about its un EQ'd frequency response, to see how much earlier its 6"/8" drivers roll off compared to, the Sub15/25. So someone who owns a Sub1 and has a lot of space around their house needs to take one outside and run PBK on it!
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post #274 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJuggler View Post

Hm, I wasn't aware of ARC's limitations. If I had ARC and PBK, then personally I wouldn't let both of them make adjustments to the same frequencies. The best way to think of multiple layers of EQ is to have a proper understanding of linear systems. There is no free lunch with using EQ, but most consumers just let it "do its thing" and assume its automatically "better", without any real clue whats going on, and the corresponding tradeoffs. It really makes me cringe sometimes.



I was led to believe that ARC's correction capabilities are not infinite and that it does at times need to make trade-offs when confronted with major challenges such as an extremely high measure point like 12.5k or 15k as opposed to the recommended 5k.

John
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post #275 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 10:11 AM
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why do i get the feeling that dual sub 25s is the way to go......
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post #276 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netroamer View Post

I was led to believe that ARC's correction capabilities are not infinite and that it does at times need to make trade-offs when confronted with major challenges such as an extremely high measure point like 12.5k or 15k as opposed to the recommended 5k.

The trade offs I were referring to will apply to any EQ system, even an "ideal" EQ that has infinite processing and 1Hz resolution out to 30kHz. Making fine-tuned adjustments as you approach Nyquist frequency (typically 22.05/24/48kHz) raises other issues.

For example, a room that rings at 35Hz when driven at 100dB, will still ring the same way if EQ'd to be driven at 85dB. In this case you've traded 15dB of headroom for a flatter in-room frequency response, but still haven't done anything about the room's time domain impulse response. Every 3dB is a doubling of power, so 15dB is throwing away a lot of power. Conversely, raising a null by 15dB will cause your woofer to start distorting 15dB sooner.

But, we're getting off-track, so I'll just point to some good references and leave it at that.

http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-A...2647912&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Systems-Signal...2648040&sr=1-5

http://www.amazon.com/Discrete-Time-...2648255&sr=1-2
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post #277 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

why do i get the feeling that dual sub 25s is the way to go......

Why stop at two? The ideal number of subs for a rectangular room is FOUR!
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post #278 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netroamer View Post

I was led to believe that ARC's correction capabilities are not infinite and that it does at times need to make trade-offs when confronted with major challenges such as an extremely high measure point like 12.5k or 15k as opposed to the recommended 5k.

Your statement is 100% correct about ARC. My experience and others have found it almost never allocates extra resources when it finds a hard to correct condition.

Could you please post before and after screen shots of your PBK and ARC runs.
I would like to see what the Sub 1 can do.
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post #279 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

why do i get the feeling that dual sub 25s is the way to go......

thats what i think but Duals

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Rear back
(1) Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel
(2) Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides
(1) Paradigm Signature Sub25
Pioneer Elite SC-05
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APC Power Conditioner...
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post #280 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post

Could you please post before and after screen shots of your PBK and ARC runs.
I would like to see what the Sub 1 can do.

No no no, that will only measure his room response and the EQ function! If you want to see what the sub can do, then you need to take measurements outside.
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post #281 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJuggler View Post

No no no, that will only measure his room response and the EQ function! If you want to see what the sub can do, then you need to take measurements outside.

You want to come over and help move this sucker around?

John
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post #282 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netroamer View Post

You want to come over and help move this sucker around?

More or less as a joke I forwarded a copy of your post from your Anthem rep and guess what ?
Here is an excerpt from my supplier's response:

I forwarded your email to my local PARADIGM rep, who apparently sent it along to B--- M----- at PARADIGM he has authorized the same offer to you. I received a call from my local Anthem rep early this afternoon. In response to his question, I assured him that you wouldn't have sent the email along if you weren't interested in the same offer and told him to go ahead and make the arrangements to have one of the SUB 1s sent to my store. I'll contact you when we receive it this coming week, and you'll be halfway to woofer heaven.

Yeah Baby

Maybe they should call it "The Paradigm Sub Loaner Program".
There will no doubt be a few Sub 1's available as dealer demos soon.
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post #283 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJuggler View Post

No no no, that will only measure his room response and the EQ function! If you want to see what the sub can do, then you need to take measurements outside.

Understand what you are stating but all I want to see is what I would might hear in the real world "IN ROOM PERFORMANCE".
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post #284 of 1532 Old 04-30-2010, 11:19 PM
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Understand what you are stating but all I want to see is what I would might hear in the real world "IN ROOM PERFORMANCE".

Well, that depends primarily on the room. I suppose if you have identical rooms then it would be useful though.

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You want to come over and help move this sucker around?

If I was local, heck yeah. Anything in the name of science!
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post #285 of 1532 Old 05-02-2010, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestewman View Post


Yeah Baby

Maybe they should call it "The Paradigm Sub Loaner Program".
There will no doubt be a few Sub 1's available as dealer demos soon.


Thats a darn nice deal right there.... you get the ability to try out a Sub 1 and compare it afterward to the Sub 2....

Gracious enough I would say...
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post #286 of 1532 Old 05-04-2010, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netroamer View Post

I'm not much of a subwoofer junkie. I have been using the same M&K 5000, now for sale, for about nine years. My goal was to reduce the footprint of the subwoofer and move it to a more frontal position under a drop-down screen where the M&K was to tall to use. I'll list the whole amp/speaker chain with my ARC results.

I hooked up the Sub-1 and did a quick level setup. I liked what I heard. But I was somewhat puzzled in that I heard a more articulate lower mid-range, I'm guessing between 300-800hz that is handled by my M-L Prodigy's and M-L Stage that the Sub-1 is now positioned in line with.

As for using the PBK, I was told, months ago, by Piero at Anthem that ARC will do the same job and there was no need to run PBK first. I'll ask again.


did you run arc yet? Final thoughts?
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post #287 of 1532 Old 05-04-2010, 08:57 PM
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I will finish running new under floor cables tomorrow for this Sub1 and the second on-order. I will run PBK,, but not upload the results, to see its' results and then ARC to compare. Will post the old Sub charts and the new Sub1 charts, hopefully before the weekend.

John
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post #288 of 1532 Old 05-07-2010, 11:14 PM
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Got my loaner SUB 1 today. The salesman took it out of the box at the store before I got there just to see it for himself. My first impression is that it's very compact. The photo below shows the SUB 1 beside the Velodyne F1200 it replaced. Paradigm claims the SUB 1's six drivers move as much air as two twelve inch woofers, and here you can see it is not much larger than a single 12 inch sub.

It was difficult to move without damaging it because it has drivers all around and the plate amp has delicate switches and knobs on it. I drove it home in my sedan, but I recommend using a pickup truck or van so it can be left in its original packaging.

I watched Avatar with my son and the kid from next door, and despite all the griping about 25Hz filters in that other thread, it was still very enjoyable. At the beginning of the movie I could feel my pant legs flapping during the drum beats and the shuttle landing. My Velodyne never even once gave me this kind of tactile sensation with bass. It sounds very similar to the SUB 25 at the I demoed at the store.

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The second Sub1 is on its way from the dealer. I will be PBKing and ARCing this weekend unless Mother's Day plans conflict. As adding the second Sub1 was her suggestion, I'll hold off if necessary.

John
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post #290 of 1532 Old 05-08-2010, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netroamer View Post

The second Sub1 is on its way from the dealer. I will be PBKing and ARCing this weekend unless Mother's Day plans conflict. As adding the second Sub1 was her suggestion, I'll hold off if necessary.

Mind if I ask who you are using as a dealer ?
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post #291 of 1532 Old 05-08-2010, 12:24 PM
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Mind if I ask who you are using as a dealer ?

The one and only Bob Servos at Deluxe Audio/Video, Naperville, IL.

John
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post #292 of 1532 Old 05-08-2010, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

Got my loaner SUB 1 today. The salesman took it out of the box at the store before I got there just to see it for himself. My first impression is that it's very compact. The photo below shows the SUB 1 beside the Velodyne F1200 it replaced. Paradigm claims the SUB 1's six drivers move as much air as two twelve inch woofers, and here you can see it is not much larger than a single 12 inch sub.

It was difficult to move without damaging it because it has drivers all around and the plate amp has delicate switches and knobs on it. I drove it home in my sedan, but I recommend using a pickup truck or van so it can be left in its original packaging.

I watched Avatar with my son and the kid from next door, and despite all the griping about 25Hz filters in that other thread, it was still very enjoyable. At the beginning of the movie I could feel my pant legs flapping during the drum beats and the shuttle landing. My Velodyne never even once gave me this kind of tactile sensation with bass. It sounds very similar to the SUB 25 at the I demoed at the store.



what other thread is that?
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post #293 of 1532 Old 05-08-2010, 05:16 PM
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This one about the lamentation of the falling tree:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1244520
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post #294 of 1532 Old 05-08-2010, 05:48 PM
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mbfleming, the sub looks fantastic!!! Congrats
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post #295 of 1532 Old 05-09-2010, 11:54 AM
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Here are the first results of my ARC run on the dual Sub1's.

The first two files are the ARC runs with the M&K Sub.
The next are the new Sub1 runs.
The last is a .jpg of the front speaker array.

 

ARC M&K Movie 5k-1.pdf 81.4169921875k . file

 

ARC M&K Movie 5k-2.pdf 79.8525390625k . file

 

ARC Sub1-5k-05-09-10 Page 1.pdf 80.4462890625k . file

 

ARC Sub1-5k-05-09-10 Page 2.pdf 81.712890625k . file
LL

John
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post #296 of 1532 Old 05-09-2010, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
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hey Z, less talk.....more pics

This is to show zwalls how it's done.









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post #297 of 1532 Old 05-09-2010, 08:18 PM
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thats exactly what i'm talking about mb, well done and beautiful pics. how good is the Sub1?
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post #298 of 1532 Old 05-09-2010, 09:08 PM
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Don't take this the wrong way, but it is almost disappointing. So far I have only watched two movies with it: Avatar and Return Of The King. The distortion is so low it sounds like the bass is reduced. I calibrated my Pioneer MCACC with it, and I don't have the PBK, so I still haven't got it set up right. I bought M&C on DVD at Walmart for six bucks to see how the cannon shots felt with the <25Hz bass, but I wasn't impressed. So far the only wow moment was the beginning of Avatar with the shuttle landing and the drum beats that made my clothing vibrate.

I think its too early to for me to say much at this point. I was busy with family this weekend so I haven't had much chance to push it hard.
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post #299 of 1532 Old 05-09-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

Don't take this the wrong way, but it is almost disappointing. So far I have only watched two movies with it: Avatar and Return Of The King. The distortion is so low it sounds like the bass is reduced. I calibrated my Pioneer MCACC with it, and I don't have the PBK, so I still haven't got it set up right. I bought M&C on DVD at Walmart for six bucks to see how the cannon shots felt with the <25Hz bass, but I wasn't impressed. So far the only wow moment was the beginning of Avatar with the shuttle landing and the drum beats that made my clothing vibrate.

I think its too early to for me to say much at this point. I was busy with family this weekend so I haven't had much chance to push it hard.

perhaps room positioning is your issue?
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post #300 of 1532 Old 05-09-2010, 09:34 PM
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I want to add one other thing: this thing is a pain to move around; its heavy and there is nowhere to grip it. I'm afraid of breaking one of the grills or putting a finger through one of the drivers. The SUB 1 weighs 109lbs.

I will be getting a SUB 2 which weighs 233 pounds, and it will be too large to put my arms around it. I don't think the SUB 2 can be moved by one person outside of its shipping container without damage.

EDIT: I see Paradigm tricked theirs out with wheels:



I wondered what this threaded hole on the feet was for:

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