Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 03:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by peterpioli View Post

I was told by a dealer who has compared both the Sub 25 and Sub 1 that the Sub 25 has a bit more low frequency response than the Sub-1, but the Sub 1 has more maximum output. He felt the Sub 25 might be a better choice for music, but that the Sub 1 was the better choice for home theater.

It might very well have more output in the 80hz and above range since xmax plays less a roll in raw output the higher you go up in the frequency band, but from 20-80hz smoothed/eq'd out I would take the sub 25 for sheer output still.
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post #362 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 04:18 PM
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How anyone else made the comparison? Is the Sub 1 better than the Sub 25 for home theater?
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post #363 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 04:23 PM
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I think this statistic could make for a very useful tool when comparing various subs...

Anyone have numbers for the Sub 12?
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post #364 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 04:38 PM
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Before anyone beats me up on my crude methods, craigsub calculated the potential of the SUB 2 here.

ntrain6943, I think your value of 2.5 inches for xmax with 120v is too big; shouldn't it be half that? The xmax value for the PDR 8 is made up, I put it in for what if purposes.

  price driver xmax amp peak voicecoil displacement (one-way) $/cubic inch
PDR 8 299.99 8 in 5 mm 100 w 300 w 1.5 in 10 cu in $30 per cu in
Signature SUB 1 4399.99 8 in 12 mm 1700 w 3400 w 1.5 in 142 cu in $31 per cu in
Signature SUB 25 4999.99 15 in 38 mm 3000 w 7500 w 3.0 in 264 cu in $19 per cu in
Signature SUB 2 8299.99 10 in 25 mm 4500 w 9000 w 3.0 in 464 cu in $18 per cu in
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post #365 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 05:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

Before anyone beats me up on my crude methods, craigsub calculated the potential of the SUB 2 here.

ntrain6943, I think your value of 2.5 inches for xmax with 120v is too big; shouldn't it be half that? The xmax value for the PDR 8 is made up, I put it in for what if purposes.

  price driver xmax amp peak voicecoil displacement (one-way) $/cubic inch
PDR 8 299.99 8 in 5 mm 100 w 300 w 1.5 in 10 cu in $30 per cu in
Signature SUB 1 4399.99 8 in 12 mm 1700 w 3400 w 1.5 in 285 cu in $15 per cu in
Signature SUB 25 4999.99 15 in 38 mm 3000 w 7500 w 3.0 in 264 cu in $19 per cu in
Signature SUB 2 8299.99 10 in 25 mm 4500 w 9000 w 3.0 in 464 cu in $18 per cu in

You get close to max Xmax potential with a typical 120v input. You can easily achieve very close to its undistorted maximum output with a dedicated 120v line. And speaking of power, I would take the spec'd ratings with a grain of salt. I believe they are taken at 10% THD, similiar to what JL Audio and a few other companies do...........btw your displacement numbers are way off I believe.......
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post #366 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 07:42 PM
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What part of the driver should I measure to get the effective area? In the photo below I measure 6.25 inches for the SUB 1. Can the owner of a SUB 25 do the same for us?

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post #367 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 09:01 PM
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I had an error in the formula for the displacement of the SUB 1. Here are some revised numbers using the effective piston diameter. The SUB 25 and SUB 2 diameters are estimated using the JL Audio 15W0v2 and 10W7 driver specifications respectively.


  price CAN$ effective piston diameter xmax effective piston area (one driver) total displacement $/cubic inch
Signature SUB 1 4399.99 6.25 in 12 mm 31 in sq 87 cu in $51 per cu in
Signature SUB 25 4999.99 12.47 in 38 mm 122 in sq 183 cu in $27 per cu in
Signature SUB 2 8299.99 8.73 in 25 mm 60 in sq 353 cu in $23 per cu in

It looks like dual SUB 1's are not equivalent to a single SUB 2
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post #368 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

I can't find what the excursion of the SUB 1 drivers are, but what other trade-offs were made?

See Hoffman's Iron Law. The internal volume of the Sub1 cabinet has to be shared by 6 drivers, which reduces its efficiency and output capability at lower frequencies.

Hence my interest in seeing the measured free-field frequency response of the Sub 1. A fair comparison between subs must include the effective cabinet volume, and corresponding cutoff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

Well, for deciding between the Sub 12/15/1/25, it's probably a meaningful parameter, since they are all the same enclosure volume and veneer, with identical amps (except the Sub 25).

The Sub15/25 both have more internal volume than the Sub12. I can assure you that these Sub15's look much bigger than the Sub12 that they replaced.
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post #369 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 09:49 PM
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Here is a description for "Hoffman's Iron Law". I understand now why DIYers turned their noses up at the SUB 2's "Kilomax" amplifier as an expensive trade-off.

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Hoffman's Iron Law

One of the most fundamental design principles that the new DIY speaker builder must learn is generally known as "Hoffman's Iron Law". First formulated back in the early 1960's by Anthony Hoffman (the H in KLH), Hoffman's Iron Law is a mathematical formula that was later refined by Thiele and Small, whose work now forms the basis of all modern loudspeaker design.

Hoffman's Iron Law states that the efficiency of a woofer system is directly proportional to its cabinet volume and the cube of its cutoff frequency (the lowest frequency it can usefully reproduce). The obvious implication is that to reduce the cutoff frequency by a factor of two, e.g. from 40 Hz to 20 Hz, while still retaining the same system efficiency, you need to increase the enclosure volume by 23=8 times! In other words, to reproduce ever lower frequencies at the same output level you need an extremely large box!

However, box size isn't the only variable… You can continue to use a small box by accepting a much lower efficiency. In order to retain the same sound pressure level (SPL, meaured in dB's), though, this requires both a very large amplifier and a driver that can handle a lot of power and move a lot of air (requiring high excursions). Furthermore, it must be able to do so with minimal distortion. This is exacerbated by power compression, a phenomenon where the power heating of the driver's voice coil results in a non-linear relationship (read "distortion") between the electrical power in and the acoustical power out. Another variable not often mentioned is bandwidth… You can provide the perception of violating Hoffman's Iron Law by using a bandpass design, which can provide a lot of bass primarily across a very limited bandwidth. In all too many bandpass designs, the impressive bass is produced around a single frequency. This is often referred to as "one-note bass". It can rattle the furniture and impress your friends, and may even be OK for sound effects in action movies, but don't expect too much accuracy when listening to music with a lot of low bass content.

Summarizing, Low-frequency capability, box size, and efficiency form the three key aspects of system design. To increase any of the three, you have to give up something from the other two, with box size being the most sensitive. The often unpopular bottom line is therefore to plan on using the largest box you can comfortably live with. This partially explains the popularity of subwoofers, which can be both large and hidden from view, and often include their own built-in high power amplifier.

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post #370 of 1532 Old 05-18-2010, 09:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

What part of the driver should I measure to get the effective area? In the photo below I measure 6.25 inches for the SUB 1. Can the owner of a SUB 25 do the same for us?


Mfg's spec the ENTIRE surround to be part of the effective driver surface, but honestly I feel it should be left to the hard cone inside the surround................
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post #371 of 1532 Old 05-19-2010, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netroamer View Post

I ran the PBK software for each of the two S1's and then balanced the system to 75bd (72db for each sub) and then ran ARC.

Here are the results. I'm going to borrow some bass traps to try and tame the Right Front speaker and perhaps free up ARC resources to better correct other issues.

Your sub response looks great. The flat response from 100 to 20 Hz is excellent. Should sound fabulous.
John

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post #372 of 1532 Old 05-19-2010, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

Your sub response looks great. The flat response from 100 to 20 Hz is excellent. Should sound fabulous.
John

You guys are taking the set up of your rooms to a whole other level. Makes me realize I have a long way to go to get everything dialed in.
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post #373 of 1532 Old 05-19-2010, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

I had an error in the formula for the displacement of the SUB 1. Here are some revised numbers using the effective piston diameter. The SUB 25 and SUB 2 diameters are estimated using the JL Audio 15W0v2 and 10W7 driver specifications respectively.

The cone isn't the only part that displaces air; the surround moves air too. Just looking at my Sub 1, I'd say the 'effective' cone diameter is closer to 7-7.25".

After looking around at woofers on Parts Express, 12mm xmax is actually pretty impressive for an 8" driver. That's higher than most of the 15" woofers they sell!
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post #374 of 1532 Old 05-19-2010, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

I had an error in the formula for the displacement of the SUB 1. Here are some revised numbers using the effective piston diameter. The SUB 25 and SUB 2 diameters are estimated using the JL Audio 15W0v2 and 10W7 driver specifications respectively.


  price CAN$ effective piston diameter xmax effective piston area (one driver) total displacement $/cubic inch
Signature SUB 1 4399.99 6.25 in 12 mm 31 in sq 87 cu in $51 per cu in
Signature SUB 25 4999.99 12.47 in 38 mm 122 in sq 183 cu in $27 per cu in
Signature SUB 2 8299.99 8.73 in 25 mm 60 in sq 353 cu in $23 per cu in

It looks like dual SUB 1's are not equivalent to a single SUB 2

The specs say 3-inch 76mm 10 layer for sub2 and the sub1 1 1/2-inch 38mm 4 layer long throw aluminum voice coils.

does this match your spec sheet or did they exagerate a little? I mentioned this in that thread. How do u get xmax?


For the guy who asked earliar about the sub15/sub25 i have heard both of them, the sub25 is better alot more boom shaking and more head room etc.. but the sub 15 is good as well, it comes down to $$$$

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Rear back
(1) Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel
(2) Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides
(1) Paradigm Signature Sub25
Pioneer Elite SC-05
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post #375 of 1532 Old 05-19-2010, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayray View Post

Your sub response looks great. The flat response from 100 to 20 Hz is excellent. Should sound fabulous.
John

Thanks John,

They do sound pretty awesome.

John
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post #376 of 1532 Old 05-19-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

THe linear xmax of the Sub 1 drivers is about 10-12mm one way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

How did you find out the Sub 1's xmax anyway ntrain? I figured the Sub 1 would have a higher linear xmax since it employs those funky corrugated surrounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

You can get the Sub-1's specs direct from Paradigm if you inquire. The specs I gave for the 25 are based on an xmax of 2.5" using a 120v line. Paradigm gives linear Xmax using 240v as 3". Xmech is 3.5".

I took the xmax ntrain6943 gave. He didn't exactly say how he got it.
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post #377 of 1532 Old 05-19-2010, 06:07 PM
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The Sub1 integration for music and HT is perfect, the transition is not audible.The Sub1 simply is an all star product(size/output and extension).

Even so I am returning my Sub1 and going with dual Sub2's, I cannot stand the fact there is a higher up model. And the extra headroom of a Sub2 is right up my alley. I like to listen to techno at quite liberal volume. I do not like to strain my gear(read push it beyond...20%). :P

I will be fun. To all the Sub1 owners you have a very very high quality product. I was impressed with the defined bass and superb integration! It bests a JL Audio f113 IMO,not by much. Still the Sub1 belongs in the reference class.

I cannot wait to hear my dual Sub2 beats,playing some Infected Mushroom... oh yeah.lets see how close they get to the reference class sound quality of my in progress TC Sounds LMS/Ultra array.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #378 of 1532 Old 05-19-2010, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

The Sub1 integration for music and HT is perfect, the transition is not audible.The Sub1 simply is an all star product(size/output and extension).

Even so I am returning my Sub1 and going with dual Sub2's, I cannot stand the fact there is a higher up model. And the extra headroom of a Sub2 is right up my alley. I like to listen to techno at quite liberal volume. I do not like to strain my gear(read push it beyond...20%). :P

I will be fun. To all the Sub1 owners you have a very very high quality product. I was impressed with the defined bass and superb integration! It bests a JL Audio f113 IMO,not by much. Still the Sub1 belongs in the reference class.

I cannot wait to hear my dual Sub2 beats,playing some Infected Mushroom... oh yeah.lets see how close they get to the reference class sound quality of my in progress TC Sounds LMS/Ultra array.

let us know how it all goes with the dual sub2's my friend. i cant stand it either that their is a higher model and i cannot get it as yet. All the $$$ is going towards my newborn now.

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Rear back
(1) Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel
(2) Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides
(1) Paradigm Signature Sub25
Pioneer Elite SC-05
Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD
OPPO DV-981HD
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APC Power Conditioner...
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post #379 of 1532 Old 05-19-2010, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

i cant stand it either that their is a higher model and i cannot get it as yet


Seems to me, money spent on something like this could be much better spent IMO

Take if from "The Ear" there is nothing like DIY.
You really should look into designing and building your own custom BLOW the SUB 2 out of the water product....

You could build 2 for what they are asking for that commercial unit...
"The Ear" has a unlimited wallet, which speaks volumes for the amazing amounts of products he has acquired for fun....

Dual Opposed LMS's offers @ 4X the output of a Sub2.
Custom cabinet - easily <$1K
Drivers $3K
Pair of Pro amps $1.5K each

4 X output

Looks to be determined by you....


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post #380 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 05:38 AM
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TheEAR,
Did you compare the SUB 1 to the SUB 25? Which is better for home theater?



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

The Sub1 integration for music and HT is perfect, the transition is not audible.The Sub1 simply is an all star product(size/output and extension).

Even so I am returning my Sub1 and going with dual Sub2's, I cannot stand the fact there is a higher up model. And the extra headroom of a Sub2 is right up my alley. I like to listen to techno at quite liberal volume. I do not like to strain my gear(read push it beyond...20%). :P

I will be fun. To all the Sub1 owners you have a very very high quality product. I was impressed with the defined bass and superb integration! It bests a JL Audio f113 IMO,not by much. Still the Sub1 belongs in the reference class.

I cannot wait to hear my dual Sub2 beats,playing some Infected Mushroom... oh yeah.lets see how close they get to the reference class sound quality of my in progress TC Sounds LMS/Ultra array.

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post #381 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 08:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by peterpioli View Post

TheEAR,
Did you compare the SUB 1 to the SUB 25? Which is better for home theater?

Hey may not have, but I have spent a good amount of time with all 3 products. The Sub 25 will give you lower extension. If your looking for "shake" value in the subsonic range you would need to get the Sub 2 to get what the 25 puts down for subsonic output. The Sub 1's "8" inch drivers have their limitations and lack the excursion needed for significant content under 20hz.
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post #382 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 08:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

I took the xmax ntrain6943 gave. He didn't exactly say how he got it.

LOL! Yeah I did, you even quoted me on it. I got the #'s direct from Paradigm(support).
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post #383 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 08:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

The Sub1 integration for music and HT is perfect, the transition is not audible.The Sub1 simply is an all star product(size/output and extension).

Even so I am returning my Sub1 and going with dual Sub2's, I cannot stand the fact there is a higher up model. And the extra headroom of a Sub2 is right up my alley. I like to listen to techno at quite liberal volume. I do not like to strain my gear(read push it beyond...20%). :P

I will be fun. To all the Sub1 owners you have a very very high quality product. I was impressed with the defined bass and superb integration! It bests a JL Audio f113 IMO,not by much. Still the Sub1 belongs in the reference class.

I cannot wait to hear my dual Sub2 beats,playing some Infected Mushroom... oh yeah.lets see how close they get to the reference class sound quality of my in progress TC Sounds LMS/Ultra array.

Unless you only have room for 2 compact sub units(Or matching Signature series speakers), you do know that there are much better options out there per dollar spent. Hell, for that same money you could get 4 Sub 25's if factors keep you with Paradigm and money is no concern. 4 Sub 25's would put 2 Sub 2's to shame for the same money.(And if your buying this from a retailer, I can garentee you they would give you a deal on buying 4 of them if your smart.)

And btw, I would not call a JL subwoofer a "reference class" sub. THe Signature series from Paradigm though is very good enough so where you could give it that moniker........
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post #384 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

Unless you only have room for 2 compact sub units(Or matching Signature series speakers), you do know that there are much better options out there per dollar spent. Hell, for that same money you could get 4 Sub 25's if factors keep you with Paradigm and money is no concern. 4 Sub 25's would put 2 Sub 2's to shame for the same money.(And if your buying this from a retailer, I can garentee you they would give you a deal on buying 4 of them if your smart.)

And btw, I would not call a JL subwoofer a "reference class" sub. THe Signature series from Paradigm though is very good enough so where you could give it that moniker........


Do you even have a clue who you are preaching to here..... I highly doubt it.... Maybe you want to have a look through this thread of his, that'll give you an idea of whether or not he gives a cr@p about his spending habits... TheEar has owned and owns more subs and drivers, both commercial as well as even more DIY subs that are above and beyond the capabilities of these commercial offerings... just for fun bro.

Have a read through this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1025050
teaser
http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?i...scf1115kr1.jpg


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post #385 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

And btw, I would not call a JL subwoofer a "reference class" sub. THe Signature series from Paradigm though is very good enough so where you could give it that moniker........


Why would YOU not consider the JL subs as "reference class"? Most people (owners/reviewers/enthusiasts) certainly refer to the F113 as a "reference class" sub.

And to cut off a bigger debate, no one is suggesting that it is the "best" sub, although there are still few, if any, that can match it's performance in the same form factor. The Sub 25 seems to, although even that unit is significantly larger.

I think I'll side with theEAR on this one.
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post #386 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 10:55 AM
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He is just spewing comments.... he has no experience with any of these products as far as I can tell....ntrain How many of these different subs have you had in your house for extended periods of time, much less purchased.... ?


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post #387 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

Hey may not have, but I have spent a good amount of time with all 3 products. The Sub 25 will give you lower extension. If your looking for "shake" value in the subsonic range you would need to get the Sub 2 to get what the 25 puts down for subsonic output. The Sub 1's "8" inch drivers have their limitations and lack the excursion needed for significant content under 20hz.

ntrain6943,
I am considering to keep my JL F113 or sell JL and buy Sub 25. You think sub 25 is good enough to compensate for about $1100 extra or keep my JL F113?
Thanks,
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post #388 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

Hey may not have, but I have spent a good amount of time with all 3 products. The Sub 25 will give you lower extension. If your looking for "shake" value in the subsonic range you would need to get the Sub 2 to get what the 25 puts down for subsonic output. The Sub 1's "8" inch drivers have their limitations and lack the excursion needed for significant content under 20hz.

Are you saying the sub 25 "shake" value is the same as Sub 2?
If so why would one buy Sub 2 for twice the price.
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post #389 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

The specs say 3-inch 76mm 10 layer for sub2 and the sub1 1 1/2-inch 38mm 4 layer long throw aluminum voice coils.

does this match your spec sheet or did they exagerate a little? I mentioned this in that thread. How do u get xmax?


For the guy who asked earliar about the sub15/sub25 i have heard both of them, the sub25 is better alot more boom shaking and more head room etc.. but the sub 15 is good as well, it comes down to $$$$

How could this be true?
I got some numbers from Home Theater report about JL F113 which has 13.5 in diameter.

Effective Dispalcement = 386 sq. in
Effective Piston Area = 107.35 sq. in.

How come the Effective displacement of JL is much more that Sub 25 or is it both ways. Both ways doesn't mean anything because what matters is how much air it forces out and that should be one way, I think.
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post #390 of 1532 Old 05-20-2010, 11:33 AM
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Displacement is a product of both piston area times excursion. Bore and stroke. Very few if any commercial drivers have the excursion capabilties of the JL fathom drivers.
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