Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1546 Old 05-22-2010, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAC View Post

These arguments are really quite pointless...

Don't bother. Ntrain is a broken record. He continually says the same thing about Rythmik over and over and will argue about it to the death. Rythmik makes fantastic subs that's for sure, but people seem to get pretty tired of ntrains "sales pitch".
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post #452 of 1546 Old 05-22-2010, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigred7078 View Post

Don't bother. Ntrain is a broken record. He continually says the same thing about Rythmik over and over and will argue about it to the death. Rythmik makes fantastic subs that's for sure, but people seem to get pretty tired of ntrains "sales pitch".

Yeah, because class d amps do not integrate as well with your mains...
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post #453 of 1546 Old 05-22-2010, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigred7078 View Post

Don't bother. Ntrain is a broken record. He continually says the same thing about Rythmik over and over and will argue about it to the death. Rythmik makes fantastic subs that's for sure, but people seem to get pretty tired of ntrains "sales pitch".

Yes, but there is no question that his point has merit

Regardless....

Rythmik subs offers amazing SQ for the money.... you just can't dispute it up against premium top quality subs. We put his 15" servo up against my JL F112 as well as the LMS and it held its own in a SQ comparison with excellent upper bass response that the F112 and LMS's are very well known for.... There is no question in my mind they are worth every penny and are extremely musical and responsive. They are truly only left behind IMO in the spl region. They certainly stand out in my mind as top performers....

The piano black subs sold through Ascend are darn good lookers as well...
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post #454 of 1546 Old 05-22-2010, 09:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Yeah, because class d amps do not integrate as well with your mains...

CLass D amps are limited bandwidth among other drawbacks to their design. And this comment is geared towards the typical run of the mill production class D plate amps that populate 99.99% of the home AV subs on the market.
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post #455 of 1546 Old 05-22-2010, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

CLass D amps are limited bandwidth.

Let me get this straight, you don't like D class amps in any way...

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -- Winston Churchill
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post #456 of 1546 Old 05-22-2010, 10:03 PM
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May I remind everyone that Paradigm's class D amplifiers are the only amplifiers that can make toast:

http://www.soundstagev.com/showvideo...ub25_3&vtype=i



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post #457 of 1546 Old 05-22-2010, 10:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Yes, but there is no question that his point has merit............
........There is no question in my mind they are worth every penny and are extremely musical and responsive. They are truly only left behind IMO in the spl region. They certainly stand out in my mind as top performers....

I agree the Rythmik subs aren't SPL kings, but they are efficient and do have good output still. The new "HP" subs do put down an extra 2-4db, and they still only use a modest powered 600 watt amp. And per dollar spent, you do get more.

THe JL f112 retails for how much? $2400 I believe? In SPL alone, a single F112(330 linear cubic inches) will have more SLP than a single F15(205 linear cubic inches). But at almost 3 times the price. Now put down 2 F15's(410 linear cubic inches) vs a single F112(330). The output will now favor the F15's and have the advantages that 2 subs give in smoothing out room response. And still you have $600 left in your wallet. How about 3 F15's now vs. a single F112 for the close to the same money? Output will not only favor the F15's(615 cubic inches), but the amp gains will be reduced significantly as well if set to just equal the max output of the F112. WHich means the drivers and amps are going to have very low to no distortion, while the F112 is probably in the 1-10% range or higher. Plus the extra driver will help smooth out in room response even further over 2 or a single driver. For the money those Rythmik 15's are an absolute bargain when you really think about it.
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post #458 of 1546 Old 05-22-2010, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

CLass D amps are limited bandwidth among other drawbacks to their design.

Out of curiosity, have you built or taken measurement data for Class-D amps?
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post #459 of 1546 Old 05-22-2010, 10:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KlipschHead281 View Post

Let me get this straight, you don't like D class amps in any way...

You should reread the post, I expanded on it. Of course there are obviously some very good digital amps, the majority though lack in areas.
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post #460 of 1546 Old 05-23-2010, 06:07 AM
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I doubt anyone is cross-shopping anything from Rythmik with the Sub 1 or Sub 2. Both Paradigm subs offer high output in a small enclosure volume. The tired "but you could buy 8 F15s for the same money" argument is irrelevant, because anyone looking at the Sub 1/2 wants to minimize their enclosure volume.

JL subs are worth mentioning, because they are comparable to the Paradigm offerings (high power, small enclosure, premium cabinet/veneers, etc).

I'd be willing to bet most cross-shopping occurs within the Paradigm lineup, between the Sub 25/1/2. We can't discuss the merits of different combinations of the above until someone measures them outdoors.
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post #461 of 1546 Old 05-23-2010, 07:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

I doubt anyone is cross-shopping anything from Rythmik with the Sub 1 or Sub 2. Both Paradigm subs offer high output in a small enclosure volume. The tired "but you could buy 8 F15s for the same money" argument is irrelevant, because anyone looking at the Sub 1/2 wants to minimize their enclosure volume.

JL subs are worth mentioning, because they are comparable to the Paradigm offerings (high power, small enclosure, premium cabinet/veneers, etc).

I'd be willing to bet most cross-shopping occurs within the Paradigm lineup, between the Sub 25/1/2. We can't discuss the merits of different combinations of the above until someone measures them outdoors.

I agree with this, one of the points being, that got lost in the shuffle is how I look at the Sub 1/25/2. One reason why I am a fan of the Sub 25. I would take a Sub 25 over the Sub 1 in terms of what you get per dollar. The Sub 25 gives you more bang for your buck out of one enclosure. Or 2 Sub 25's over a Sub 2 for basically the same money(unless you really cant fit 2 Sub 25's in the room).
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post #462 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 07:09 AM
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i was just wondering... since this is a sub 1 and sub 2 thread... if anyone has anymore feedback on the actual performance, likes, dislikes etc. of those actual products? I have yet to hear anyone post about the sub 2.. I know they are on back order but some are supposed to be out there. Anyone care to comment?
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post #463 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 09:47 AM
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Any thoughts on two Sub15s (+ PBK) or one Sub1?
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post #464 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshimao View Post

Any thoughts on two Sub15s (+ PBK) or one Sub1?

Well, two Sub 15s+PBK would cost $6300, whereas one Sub1 would be $3800 (US MSRP prices), so it's not really a fair comparison. Two Sub 15s would have more displacement than a single Sub 1, not to mention the benefits of dual subs.

If you have an available 220V circuit, I say just buy a single Sub25 then save up for a second one. You can't go wrong with any of the Paradigm Reference subs though.
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post #465 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 11:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by |M|B.M.F. View Post

i was just wondering... since this is a sub 1 and sub 2 thread... if anyone has anymore feedback on the actual performance, likes, dislikes etc. of those actual products? I have yet to hear anyone post about the sub 2.. I know they are on back order but some are supposed to be out there. Anyone care to comment?

The SQ out of any of the signature series subs is exceptional. Very musical subs without question.
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post #466 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

CLass D amps are limited bandwidth among other drawbacks to their design. And this comment is geared towards the typical run of the mill production class D plate amps that populate 99.99% of the home AV subs on the market.

Do you have an data that eludes to any ill effects of the things that you claim? Or are these just blanket statements -"99.9%"?
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post #467 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Do you have an data that eludes to any ill effects of the things that you claim? Or are these just blanket statements -"99.9%"?

To answer your question for him, "75% of all statistics are made up."

I asked him a similar question but didn't get any response.

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Originally Posted by MajorJuggler View Post

Out of curiosity, have you built or taken measurement data for Class-D amps?

If you're genuinely worried about having a Class-D amp in a subwoofer, don't be. I'll spare you the technical details, but any well-engineered switching amp should be more than capable of meeting design specs for a subwoofer. There's no need to use a "linear" amplifier for this application.

Disclaimer: I'm an Electrical Engineer and have built and tested both analog and digital feedback Class D amplifiers for my job. I am also familiar with the theory.
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post #468 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 09:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Do you have an data that eludes to any ill effects of the things that you claim? Or are these just blanket statements -"99.9%"?

This is a joke right? TYpical class D amps have a response of around 20-150-200hz, and normally with specific types of distortion. Google it yourself, tons of articles on typical class D shortcomings and a big reason why you normally find them for sub applications only. If they were spectacular at sound recreation otherwise full bandwidth you would find alot of them driving regular full range speakers. You don't see too many full range class D amps kicking around for that specific reason.
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post #469 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 09:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MajorJuggler View Post


Disclaimer: I'm an Electrical Engineer and have built and tested both analog and digital feedback Class D amplifiers for my job. I am also familiar with the theory.

Being an electrical engineer why don't you explain the major reasons why class D amps are found mostly in subs. And even explain the full benefits and disadvantages they have traditionally.
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post #470 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

This is a joke right? TYpical class D amps have a response of around 20-150-200hz, and normally with specific types of distortion. Google it yourself, tons of articles on typical class D shortcomings and a big reason why you normally find them for sub applications only. If they were spectacular at sound recreation otherwise full bandwidth you would find alot of them driving regular full range speakers. You don't see too many full range class D amps kicking around for that specific reason.

Except for:

B&O
Pioneer
Rotel
Wyred4Sound
D-Sonic
BelCanto
NHT

and numerous others. But what do they know.
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post #471 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |M|B.M.F. View Post

i was just wondering... since this is a sub 1 and sub 2 thread... if anyone has anymore feedback on the actual performance, likes, dislikes etc. of those actual products? I have yet to hear anyone post about the sub 2.. I know they are on back order but some are supposed to be out there. Anyone care to comment?

I've bottomed out my SUB 1 on a couple of occasions, with what I thought was a reasonable volume level (-15db on my receiver). Could this have been caused by too much EQ by the PBK?
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post #472 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 10:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Except for:

B&O
Pioneer
Rotel
Wyred4Sound
D-Sonic
BelCanto
NHT

and numerous others. But what do they know.

Not very many listed companies listed(and in reality you listed 1 being B&O as the ICE module is their design licensed out)here compared to THOUSANDS of companies who make traditional amps, and personally I really don't like the ICE amps, they have their uses but I wouldn't take one over a good Class A SS or tube amp for a powered sub or full range speakers.
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post #473 of 1546 Old 05-25-2010, 11:18 PM
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The main reason that class D (NOT digital) amplifiers are used in subwoofers is that at the power level needed in small subwoofers, they have a lower cost/watt of power. Class D is not used in lower powered amplifiers because the high component count creates a relatively high minimum price regardless of power level.

I know of virtually NO class D amplifiers that only have a 200Hz power bandwidth. Virtually all of them have a 5kHz+ power bandwidth. When used in subwoofers, you want to reduce the bandwidth of the amplifier for a number of reasons.

The vast majority of class D amplifiers have extremely low output noise. If it doesn't, something is wrong with the design. Class D amplifiers have far fewer components in the signal path than a conventional AB amplifier. They can have quite a bit of circuitry for things such as modulation control and protection.

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post #474 of 1546 Old 05-26-2010, 05:50 AM
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post #475 of 1546 Old 05-26-2010, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

I've bottomed out my SUB 1 on a couple of occasions, with what I thought was a reasonable volume level (-15db on my receiver). Could this have been caused by too much EQ by the PBK?

Yes, one of the serious drawbacks with PBK is that it "fixes" nulls by increasing the drive level at those frequencies. This can increase distortion and in the extreme case, bottom out the drivers. It happened to me in the beginning of the movie Serenity, with a corner loaded Sub12. I've since upgraded to dual sub 15's, and added some acoustical treatments. I still have PBK running, but the biggest null boost is only around +4dB now.
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post #476 of 1546 Old 05-26-2010, 09:19 AM
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The PBK software doesn't tell you this, but you are better off with a sub position that requires the EQ to apply gain less than 1 (i.e. flattening peaks). If it has to apply high gain to boost nulls, then you give up a lot of headroom.

I probably gave up about 3dB of headroom by running PBK, since I had nulls at 25Hz and 40Hz. But I hated the sound without EQ, because the fundamental room mode at 20Hz was way too bloated without PBK.
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post #477 of 1546 Old 05-26-2010, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

Being an electrical engineer why don't you explain the major reasons why class D amps are found mostly in subs.

Certainly. There are in fact many tradeoffs with Class D that make it considerably more difficult to properly engineer than an AB amp. These include carrier frequency, deadtime, modulation index, bus voltage, dynamic range, modulation method, output filter magnetics, etc. Class A has its own set of tradeoffs which are beyond the scope of this discussion, but it is possible for Class D designs to get THD performance very close to that of an equivalent Class AB amplifier (and in some cases actually beat it).

Your assertion that Class D amps are found mostly in subs is incorrect if you extend the search beyond the commercial realm. They have been used in Navy SONAR for quite some time.

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Originally Posted by ntrain6943 View Post

TYpical class D amps have a response of around 20-150-200hz

You appear to be grossly misinformed. I have tested many class D amps well into the ultrasonic frequency range.

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Google it yourself

I use IEEE, AES, JASA, and textbooks on linear systems/comm theory/etc for my references. I do find scholar.google.com useful to quickly find journal articles though.

Quote:


and normally with specific types of distortion.

An ideal Class D amplifier is perfectly linear in-band, just as an ideal Class-A amplifier is perfectly linear in-band. With class AD modulation (2-state waveform), even harmonics of the signal are modulated around odd carrier harmonics (including the fundamental), and odd signal harmonics are modulated around even carrier harmonics. In Class BD modulation (3-state waveform), the carrier is common-mode and so only odd signal harmonics are modulated around even carrier harmonics. In either case, an LC lowpass filter is used to remove the higher frequency components. For example, TI sells an evaluation kit with BD modulation and switching frequency around 400kHz, so the out of band components do not appear until 700khz+.

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personally I really don't like the ICE amps

As a designer, neither do I, I would rather build using discrete components.

Quote:


I wouldn't take one over a ... tube amp

You are probably aware, but an ideal tube-amp introduces even-order harmonic distortion in-band. Some people prefer this, but personally, I would rather have a hi-fidelity system that accurately reproduces the original signal, and only the original signal. Anything else, by definition, is not high fidelity.

Bottom line: the Class-D amps used in Paradigm products such as the Sub1/2, do not need to sacrifice any high fidelity as compared to using a class A/AB amplifier. If properly designed, the electronic distortion should be at least an order of magnitude lower than the acoustics distortion. (edit: typo)

On a related note, speaking of efficiency, has anyone measured the power draw of a Sub1 or Sub2 when in standby?
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post #478 of 1546 Old 05-26-2010, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

The PBK software doesn't tell you this, but you are better off with a sub position that requires the EQ to apply gain less than 1 (i.e. flattening peaks). If it has to apply high gain to boost nulls, then you give up a lot of headroom.

You give up headroom either way, since you still need to adjust the master sub level to blend with the mains properly. This is fundamentally true of any EQ, actually. ARC/PBK uses parametric EQ, so it will pretty much always apply positive gain at some frequencies, and negative gain at others. I have taken dozens of measurements at different positions (permutations of different mic and sub placement), and have always seen it apply some null boosting, unfortunately. The best I have been able to do, is set the target crossover frequency as high as possible (250Hz), to reduce the overall gain.
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post #479 of 1546 Old 05-26-2010, 12:56 PM
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what bottomed it out? lfe on a movie soundtrack? for example, the opening sequence in the movie "underworld" always bottoms out my sub and it drives me crazy. also a few scenes in "300" and other movies do this. Does this type of thing happen with even the best subs listening at reference level? I assumed my sub was inferior.
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post #480 of 1546 Old 05-26-2010, 01:05 PM
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The SUB 1 bottomed out watching the movie Ironman when he emerges from the cave, and in the movie Star Wars Phantom Menace during the Pod Race scene. I don't know the exact times. The SUB 1 doesn't have a lot of displacement compared to the SUB 25 or SUB 2. It wasn't a harsh sound; it sounded similar to canvas being stretched taut.
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