Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 10:17 AM
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I got $13k just for the drivers and amps based on a quick online price search, although the LMS-5400 18" isn't even available anymore so that probably skewed the prices. You must have gotten some great deals!

Anyway, back on topic, Paradigm is pricing themselves out of their historically value-oriented niche, at least with the higher-end subwoofers. Unfortunately, their competition in the compact sealed sub market is doing the same (have you seen the prices for the new SVS sealed subs? Ouch).
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post #722 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usxplong View Post

The sub 2 measurement at 20 hz, 110 db and mic 10 feet away from sub 2 at 2.5% distortion is unvelievably good. This is head and toe better than sub 25. They measured sub 25 to be 108 db at 20hz with mic 1 foot away from sub 25 with 10% distortion. Something got be be missing here or misprinted.

I would imagine the discrepancy here to be the fact that the 110db reading was "in room". And in the room could mean as much as 12db of room gain.

108db at 20hz at 1 meter ground plane sounds like a more realistic measurement for The Sub 25. Although I didn't catch if that was an outdoor measurement?

That would make it 120db at 20hz in eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter and about 116db at 2m eighth space. 110 at 3m.

Still a pretty impressive feat for a subwoofer that size. However, there are other commercial subs that can put out higher numbers though. For Ex the Craigsub CS 18.2 will put out 112 at 20hz at 1m ground plane and doesn't require a new breaker.

If the 108db figure for the Sub 25 was ground plane then that doesnt really make the Sub 2 any louder. Perhaps the Sub 25 was also an in-room measurement?

Jeremy
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post #723 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

Paradigm is pricing themselves out of their historically value-oriented niche... Unfortunately, their competition in the compact sealed sub market is doing the same...

Gotta love comments like the above. Lol.

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post #724 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

Gotta love comments like the above. Lol.

My point is that the price of compact sealed subs is increasing disproportionately to the price of the big uglies (sealed and ported). Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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post #725 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

Anyway, back on topic, Paradigm is pricing themselves out of their historically value-oriented niche, at least with the higher-end subwoofers. Unfortunately, their competition in the compact sealed sub market is doing the same (have you seen the prices for the new SVS sealed subs? Ouch).

The 12" sealed SVS starts at $550, which is right around where their previous 12" sealed was priced at, if not less. The high end models in the SVS line seem to be more designed to compete with models from Paradigm, JL Audio, Velodyne and so on. Additionally, it's just far easier, and cheaper, to get output from a subwoofer when you aren't restricted to a sealed box, where your main options are to have a larger woofer or magnet, and a larger amp, and other options that cost far more than just building a larger enclosure.

However, many people want sealed subs, either for size reasons, or performance reasons, or something else, and are willing to pay the larger price for the smaller enclosure.

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post #726 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ruddy View Post

Unfortunately I had to purchase without hearing either one but many agree with you. BTW the new MSRP's have gone up in September. I got these prices directly from Paradigm. Piano Black Sub 25 $4700 Piano Black Sub 1 $4999. So as you can see the Sub 1 is now more expensive than the 25.

Seems like Paradigm has discounted Sub 25 by about $300. The piano black was around $5000 a few months ago.
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post #727 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

The 12" sealed SVS starts at $550, which is right around where their previous 12" sealed was priced at, if not less. The high end models in the SVS line seem to be more designed to compete with models from Paradigm, JL Audio, Velodyne and so on.

I think the originally-announced price for the upcoming SB-16 Ultra was $1800. Now SVS is saying $4000 for that product. Paradigm released the Sub 1 at $3500 less than a year ago, and they have since jacked the price up over 30%.

I'm not imagining this dramatic spike in the price of premium sealed subs. Is there some underlying market force behind it? i.e. did all of the Class D plate amp makers in China collude to jack up their prices?
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post #728 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

I would imagine the discrepancy here to be the fact that the 110db reading was "in room". And in the room could mean as much as 12db of room gain.

108db at 20hz at 1 meter ground plane sounds like a more realistic measurement for The Sub 25. Although I didn't catch if that was an outdoor measurement?

That would make it 120db at 20hz in eighth space (corner loaded), 1 meter and about 116db at 2m eighth space. 110 at 3m.

Still a pretty impressive feat for a subwoofer that size. However, there are other commercial subs that can put out higher numbers though. For Ex the Craigsub CS 18.2 will put out 112 at 20hz at 1m ground plane and doesn't require a new breaker.

If the 108db figure for the Sub 25 was ground plane then that doesnt really make the Sub 2 any louder. Perhaps the Sub 25 was also an in-room measurement?

The sub 25 was in room but in the middle of the room away from walls and corners. But the mic was 1 foot away not 1 meter. Or may be the 1 foot was a misprint.
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post #729 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usxplong View Post

The sub 25 was in room but in the middle of the room away from walls and corners. But the mic was 1 foot away not 1 meter. Or may be the 1 foot was a misprint.

Even away from walls..there would still be a little bit of room gain as opposed to outdoors.

I would bet that was supposed to read 1m as 1ft would not really be useful.

Jeremy
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post #730 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 03:01 PM
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Ok I am going to help some lucky individual out and sell my brand new Sub 1. It is a Cherry finish Sub 1, all original packaging, plugged in for less than 10 hours, PBK kit never opened, not a single mark on it, basically brand new. I am going to honor 1st come 1st serve order on PM's to me. I got a smokin deal on this and will pass on the savings to you. Before every one asks why I am selling...love the sub 1 and will probably keep as 3rd Sub if it does not sell but going to be getting a Sub 2 as I have a huge room to fill (despite the fact that the dry wall and tile grout are already cracking ).
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post #731 of 1532 Old 10-05-2010, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

For those asking, John measured the Sub 2 in his testing room for Secrets, and you can find an article with photos (from a few years ago) about the room here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...04-part-1.html

In short, it's 18' x 20' with a ceiling that goes from 6' up to 10' and back down to 6' (most of it is 10' high), and it's acoustically treated. The Sub 2 was running off a single 120V line, though he is planning to get a pair of 240V lines run for the Sub 2's (yes, plural) to see how they test.

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Originally Posted by MajorJuggler View Post

Unfortunately, objective low-frequency measurements will be nearly impossible in that room. It looks like it has virtually no absorption below 50Hz, let alone at 20Hz. The room's width and length axial modes will be around ~8.5Hz, 17Hz, 25.5Hz, 8.5*n... 9.5Hz, 19Hz, 28.5Hz, 9.5*n... etc. That's excluding height modes.

Accurate low-frequency THD tests should be made in half-space, aka in the middle of a paved (and quiet) parking lot. You may be able to take decent measurements in a very well constructed "anechoic" test chamber, if you have access to something like Paradigm's testing facilities - and even then it's not trivial.

Chris Heinonen (Smackrabbit), when is the Secrets review of the SUB 2 going to be published?

Why don't you also do a test of the SUB 2 outdoors? At least that is reproducible and allows it to be compared to other subs already tested using the same methodology. It's regrettable that magazines have cut back on measurements compared to what they used to do. Nowadays magazine readers can't compare subwoofers unless the magazine writer does a shootout type of article.

I've read too many magazine articles with lines like this:

Quote:
Watching , the was exhilarating as it generated incredible amounts of bass.

I understand a subjective review is much easier to write, but I hope you can do more than provide quotes like the one above. Now that the SUB 2 is shipping, hopefully we can end the speculation about its capabilities and finally get some objective measurements.
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post #732 of 1532 Old 10-06-2010, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

Chris Heinonen (Smackrabbit), when is the Secrets review of the SUB 2 going to be published?

Why don't you also do a test of the SUB 2 outdoors? At least that is reproducible and allows it to be compared to other subs already tested using the same methodology. It's regrettable that magazines have cut back on measurements compared to what they used to do. Nowadays magazine readers can't compare subwoofers unless the magazine writer does a shootout type of article.

I've read too many magazine articles with lines like this:



I understand a subjective review is much easier to write, but I hope you can do more than provide quotes like the one above. Now that the SUB 2 is shipping, hopefully we can end the speculation about its capabilities and finally get some objective measurements.

Paradigm has been around for a long time, and rightfully so has built a huge following. I remember reading the first reviews of the Servo 15 and certainly drooled over it back then as I had not purchased my first sub yet. They have a history of making products that are high performance and are also beautiful looking pieces to have in your living room. That combination has always been a winner, and it's not been all about the numbers per se.

But with these two new subs, when you say "The most powerful sub in the world" you kind of invite people wanting to see some hard numbers. And when the price is as much as I paid for my Jeep Liberty...
You inevitably invite yourself into an SPL race, making claims like that.
It is like Subaru saying "We just put out the fastest car in the world" and then not having any 0-60 tests done to prove it.

Not putting down the subwoofers at all, they look amazing.
But if you're going to make outrageous claims about output...let see some ground plane measurements!

Jeremy
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post #733 of 1532 Old 10-06-2010, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

...when you say "The most powerful sub in the world" you kind of invite people wanting to see some hard numbers.
You inevitably invite yourself into an SPL race, making claims like that.
...let see some ground plane measurements!

I believe the "most powerful sub in the world" statement is in reference to the onboard amplification, not SPL.

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post #734 of 1532 Old 10-06-2010, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

Chris Heinonen (Smackrabbit), when is the Secrets review of the SUB 2 going to be published?

Why don't you also do a test of the SUB 2 outdoors? At least that is reproducible and allows it to be compared to other subs already tested using the same methodology. It's regrettable that magazines have cut back on measurements compared to what they used to do. Nowadays magazine readers can't compare subwoofers unless the magazine writer does a shootout type of article.

I understand a subjective review is much easier to write, but I hope you can do more than provide quotes like the one above. Now that the SUB 2 is shipping, hopefully we can end the speculation about its capabilities and finally get some objective measurements.

I don't have the Sub 2 myself, our editor JJ has it, and I really don't know when the review will be published as the sub just arrived the week of CEDIA. I believe he was looking to add a 20A, 240V circuit for the room as well and that might take some time to get done I'm sure. For reference, here's benchmarks taken from other subs in the same room:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...w.html?start=2

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...w.html?start=2

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...r.html?start=3

If I knew more about the review, I'd tell you, as I'm just as interested as everyone else is!

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post #735 of 1532 Old 10-06-2010, 11:57 AM
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How come the reviewer measured all other subs at one foot and measured sub 2 at 10 foot. Is that a misprint or real because sub 2's measurement 110db at 10 feet with less than 2.5% distortion is hard to believe.
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post #736 of 1532 Old 10-07-2010, 05:01 AM
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The idea of measuring a subs output in room vs outside has me a bit curious as to the true capability of certain subs. For example the def tech trinity. In CraigSub's rankings it had the 3rd highest output (beaten out by the ED A7-900, and the Epik Conquest). BUT the A7-900 and the Conquest do not have sideway firing drivers, which the Trinity does all be it they are only passive drivers. But for subs like the trinity, or more importantly the sub 2, which have side firing drivers as well as forward firing drivers would the output in crease going from outside to in room be greater for these subs as opposed to subs which only fire 1 directions.... ie the ED A7-900 or the Epik Conquest?
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post #737 of 1532 Old 10-07-2010, 05:43 PM
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Subwoofers radiate equally in all directions, so it doesn't matter the SUB 2 has drivers spaced 120 degrees apart. Try standing behind your subwoofer; it should be equally loud as standing in front of it. I found some really good animations once, I wish I bookmarked them because I can't find them now. Anyways here is a good explanation:

Quote:


At low frequencies (when ka is small) a loudspeaker radiates sound equally well in all directions (a boxed loudspeaker will even radiate low frequency sound into the region behind the box). As shown in the animation below, sound waves radiating from the speaker spread out evenly in all directions.

http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/...ledPiston.html


EDIT: Found a good article on subwoofer measurment:

Subwoofer Measurement Tactics: A Brief, Topical Overview & Method Comparison
http://www.audioholics.com/education...r-measurements
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post #738 of 1532 Old 10-07-2010, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post


Subwoofer Measurement Tactics: A Brief, Topical Overview & Method Comparison
http://www.audioholics.com/education...r-measurements

Seeing a subwoofer hoisted that far up a crane is pretty funny, one would think that it would be easier to just put the mic up there. Acoustic reciprocity and all...
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post #739 of 1532 Old 10-07-2010, 08:34 PM
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I wouldn't dare hoist my sub up a ham radio tower like that. I had enough trouble getting the thing into my living room. If that tower collapsed, a 230lb sub would probably punch a hole through your roof as it came down. The SUB 2 is a very dense heavy subwoofer. I'll just wait for the Secrets review to be published, thanks.
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post #740 of 1532 Old 10-08-2010, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

I believe the "most powerful sub in the world" statement is in reference to the onboard amplification, not SPL.

Then it would be "The most powerful amplifier in a powered subwoofer".

If that is indeed the case. But "Subwoofer" is the whole product and "powerful" generally means output. A "powerful" subwoofer does not need tons of amplifier power, depending on the design...some do and some don't.

I'm curious how a one ft indoor measurement would compare to a one meter outdoor measurement?

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post #741 of 1532 Old 10-08-2010, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post


I'm curious how a one ft indoor measurement would compare to a one meter outdoor measurement?

Nevermind, I found it:

"(To calculate the 1m, full-space (anechoic), far-field equivalent, use the above equation and subtract 6dB from the results)."

From the article linked above.

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post #742 of 1532 Old 10-08-2010, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

Then it would be "The most powerful amplifier in a powered subwoofer".

If that is indeed the case. But "Subwoofer" is the whole product and "powerful" generally means output. A "powerful" subwoofer does not need tons of amplifier power, depending on the design...some do and some don't.

That line was probably added by the marketing department, not the engineers that designed the sub, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. The only unit marketing departments understand is the dollar, so you can't expect them to understand the Watt or Decibel.

Miller Lite is claimed to have "Great Taste, Less Filling", but that doesn't hold up to any kind of objective scrutiny. I doubt the guys on the Beer Advocate forums are losing any sleep over this dubious claim though.
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post #743 of 1532 Old 10-08-2010, 12:05 PM
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Indeed lol!

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post #744 of 1532 Old 10-08-2010, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

...."powerful" generally means SPL.

Well if you say so, it must be true!
This is just too silly to even debate.

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post #745 of 1532 Old 10-08-2010, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

Well if you say so, it must be true!
This is just too silly to even debate.

What is silly?
A powered subwoofer is comprised of a driver and an amplifier (and of course the box).

What if I were to pair a driver with an efficiency of 79db 1w/1m with a 10,000 watt amplifier? Well it's output might actually not be all that impressive.
Would I be able to claim "The world's most powerful subwoofer" ?

I actually agree with the_phew. It was probably just an over-zealous marketing department.

Actually,Glenn, I don't think ...that any who are posting on here are looking for an argument. Or, are they saying anything bad about this company's products.
But these are some pricey units and some pretty hefty claims about spl.
People are just trying to make sense of it all by asking for measurements that follow some guidelines that have been very standard.
Otherwise all the claims about enormous output are just words.
Regardless of huge amplifier ratings and 220v dedicated lines.

I know it doesn't sound like it, but I actually love Paradigm stuff.
Everything I've heard has been really stunning.
I'm just looking for some clarification. And how in-room measurements might translate to others that I have seen.

Jeremy
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post #746 of 1532 Old 10-08-2010, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

I'm curious how a one ft indoor measurement would compare to a one meter outdoor measurement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

Nevermind, I found it:

"(To calculate the 1m, full-space (anechoic), far-field equivalent, use the above equation and subtract 6dB from the results)."

From the article linked above.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Room modes and boundary conditions will always effect the measurement to some extent even if taken near the source. You would have to know the room's exact spatially-dependent frequency response, to even try to extrapolate half-space performance from in-room measurements.

I can't find the specific line that you're quoting, so I suspect that you're confusing conversion of 2-pi steradian (half-space) to 4-pi steradian (full-space).

Bottom line: to get useful data for comparison, you need to measure the performance outdoors. Measuring a sub's performance indoors is akin to taking a car to a curvy, hilly track and reporting 1/4 mile times against other cars that have been tested on completely different tracks. Sure you get some information, but its useless when comparing against other vehicles.
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post #747 of 1532 Old 10-08-2010, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post

Well if you say so, it must be true!
This is just too silly to even debate.

I am not sure what you are getting at. Are you suggesting that there is an alternative interpretation of how "powerful" an acoustic transmitting device is, other than referring to its measured acoustic output power?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_power
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post #748 of 1532 Old 10-08-2010, 10:39 PM
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Juggler, I think you have a much better grasp than I do.

The point I was trying to make though, is that a one meter measurement outdoors has to be a smaller number than a one foot measurement, indoors or out. that much I do know.

Now comparing a 10 ft in room measurement to any outdoor, would be quite a crapshoot indeed.

Jeremy
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post #749 of 1532 Old 10-09-2010, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post


What is silly?

This is a REALLY dumb debate, but I'll play along once again...
If you asked somebody how much power a sub woofer (product) had; the appropriate response would be an SPL measurement? NO! What planet are you guys on? The commonly accepted correct answer would be to state how much amplifier power it has. Paradigm's Sub 2 has the most powerful amplifier in the consumer electronics market... That makes it the sub with the most power. If Paradigm marketed the Sub 2 as the "highest output" or "loudest" sub, then we would be arguing SPL.

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post #750 of 1532 Old 10-09-2010, 06:55 AM
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