Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1531 Old 01-22-2010, 05:13 AM
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I was told by my dealer than production on the Sub 1 started this week, and they will start shipping next week. He said this first production run is only in Piano Black (what I ordered). I didn't ask him about the Sub 2.

Digs, Low-Frequency Extension is measured according to some obscure German standards "Deutsche Institut fur Normung" (DIN), but it is definitely not the -3 dB point in your room or my room.

For reference, the Sub 25 is listed at 9Hz DIN on Paradigm's site. The Sub 1 and Sub 25 are priced very similarly, but likely perform very differently. The Sub 25 can run off 240V and has a much bigger amp, so I'm sure it can play louder and deeper.

However, the Sub 1 should have a significantly lower group delay, i.e. it should be 'faster' or more musical. I base this on group delay measurements of the Martin Logan subs that use the same multiple opposed small driver design. Their group delay at 20 Hz is often half the value for 15" sealed subs.
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post #92 of 1531 Old 01-22-2010, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

I was told by my dealer than production on the Sub 1 started this week, and they will start shipping next week. He said this first production run is only in Piano Black (what I ordered). I didn't ask him about the Sub 2.

Digs, Low-Frequency Extension is measured according to some obscure German standards "Deutsche Institut fur Normung" (DIN), but it is definitely not the -3 dB point in your room or my room.

For reference, the Sub 25 is listed at 9Hz DIN on Paradigm's site. The Sub 1 and Sub 25 are priced very similarly, but likely perform very differently. The Sub 25 can run off 240V and has a much bigger amp, so I'm sure it can play louder and deeper.

However, the Sub 1 should have a significantly lower group delay, i.e. it should be 'faster' or more musical. I base this on group delay measurements of the Martin Logan subs that use the same multiple opposed small driver design. Their group delay at 20 Hz is often half the value for 15" sealed subs.

what is group delay?
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post #93 of 1531 Old 01-22-2010, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osofast240sx View Post

what is group delay?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=subwoofer+group+delay

It's the derivative of the phase with respect to frequency. In layman's terms, low group delay means the subwoofer is 'fast' or 'tight'.

Sealed subs have the best group delay, followed by vented, with passive radiators having the worst. This is because sealed subs are 2nd order, vented are 4th, and passive radiator systems are 5th order. Vented/PR subs have spikes in group delay near their natural frequency (the frequency the ports or PRs are tuned to).
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post #94 of 1531 Old 01-22-2010, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

I was told by my dealer than production on the Sub 1 started this week, and they will start shipping next week. He said this first production run is only in Piano Black (what I ordered). I didn't ask him about the Sub 2.

Digs, Low-Frequency Extension is measured according to some obscure German standards "Deutsche Institut fur Normung" (DIN), but it is definitely not the -3 dB point in your room or my room.

For reference, the Sub 25 is listed at 9Hz DIN on Paradigm's site. The Sub 1 and Sub 25 are priced very similarly, but likely perform very differently. The Sub 25 can run off 240V and has a much bigger amp, so I'm sure it can play louder and deeper.

However, the Sub 1 should have a significantly lower group delay, i.e. it should be 'faster' or more musical. I base this on group delay measurements of the Martin Logan subs that use the same multiple opposed small driver design. Their group delay at 20 Hz is often half the value for 15" sealed subs.


Good to know- Thanks. What made you go with the Sub 1 instead of the Sub 25? I'm considering both of these myself.

Comparing the surface area of these (square inches):

SUB 1: 6 x 8" drivers= 302
SUB 2: 6 x 10" drivers= 471

SUB 25: 1 x 15" driver = 177


I know there is a lot more to the story- excursion, power, etc.... Are there some things a larger driver can do that a smaller driver(s) just can't do? Will no amount of 8" drivers and power give the low frequency extension of a 15" or even an 18"?

As the-phew touched on, it's also interesting to compare these considering price. With the Sub 1 and Sub 25 so close in price, I wonder how significant the performance difference is. I agree that the Sub 1 is likely to be more musical. Last time I did some serious sub shopping (long time ago), it struck me that there were many that could rattle the walls for home theater use, but on music, the differences were far more striking. I wonder how much one gains in musicality with the Sub 1 vs. how much low end you lose. (compared to the Sub 25)

One could buy TWO Sub 1's or TWO Sub 25's for about the cost of one Sub 2. What would be better? The Sub 2 can reach lows neither of the other two can, but in a real world application, which option would perform the best? Is it strickly dependent on the room and volume? Seems to be a lot of love for using multiple subs.

-Digs
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post #95 of 1531 Old 01-22-2010, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

What made you go with the Sub 1 instead of the Sub 25? I'm considering both of these myself.

1. More cone area, like you mentioned, in about the same size/weight enclosure
2. I don't have a dedicated 240V circuit that I can hookup to, so I couldn't take advantage of that cool feature of the Sub25.
3. Speculation that the Sub1 should be more musical than the Sub25.
4. The Sub 1 looks better, to me anyway (aesthetics are important!)
5. The Sub 1 is the 'newer' model
6. The Sub 1 is ~$500 cheaper AND comes with the PBK-1, which I wanted anyway

I wish I had the patience to wait for someone to directly compare them, but I really wanted a new sub.
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post #96 of 1531 Old 01-22-2010, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

1. More cone area, like you mentioned, in about the same size/weight enclosure
2. I don't have a dedicated 240V circuit that I can hookup to, so I couldn't take advantage of that cool feature of the Sub25.
3. Speculation that the Sub1 should be more musical than the Sub25.
4. The Sub 1 looks better, to me anyway (aesthetics are important!)
5. The Sub 1 is the 'newer' model
6. The Sub 1 is ~$500 cheaper AND comes with the PBK-1, which I wanted anyway

I wish I had the patience to wait for someone to directly compare them, but I really wanted a new sub.

easier room placement
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post #97 of 1531 Old 01-28-2010, 06:41 PM
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The Paradigm website has been updated with a page for the Signature Sub 2

http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference...-4-30.paradigm
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post #98 of 1531 Old 01-29-2010, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

The Paradigm website has been updated with a page for the Signature Sub 2

http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference...-4-30.paradigm


Nice spot! They have the Sub 1 up now also.

Hopefully we'll start getting some reports on these soon.
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post #99 of 1531 Old 01-29-2010, 01:08 PM
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Being told my Sub 2 is done and in the warehouse with my name on it. Should have it next week worst case the following week.
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post #100 of 1531 Old 02-03-2010, 07:42 PM
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Got my Sub 1, in Piano black. 5th one off the assembly line, according to the Serial # on the back.

They forgot to send me the PBK-1 that is supposed to come with it, but I did a quick 4-position Audyssey MultiEQ XT calibration.

I listened to the Blue Man Group: Audio DVD-Audio disc, The Police: Certifiable concert Blu-Ray, and a couple scenes from the Iron Man Blu-ray. Very, very tight compared to my old PW2200, with gobs more output. I didn't dare go past 60% on the volume dial with the rest of the system playing at reference level; it felt like the kick drum on Certifiable was punching me in the throat. The Sub 1 and its big brother (Sub 2) might be THE subs for music; it's so articulate it can resolve very fast riffs on the electric bass without ever getting muddy like most ported subs do. It can also get down and dirty with home theatre LFE, although obviously there are cheaper (and bigger) subs that will give you more boom for your buck there. But if you want a gorgeous, compact sub that really shines on music, the Sub 1 might be for you.

The excursion of those 8" drivers is absurd to watch. We're accustomed to seeing big 15" drivers with high excursion, but those six little 8" drivers slamming over an inch is a sight to behold. Especially since you can barely feel any vibration on the enclosure while the drivers are pounding.

I can't wait until I get the PBK-1 to EQ this monster!

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post #101 of 1531 Old 02-03-2010, 07:53 PM
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awesome!!!! more pics!!!
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post #102 of 1531 Old 02-04-2010, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

Got my Sub 1, in Piano black. 5th one off the assembly line....

.... The Sub 1 and its big brother (Sub 2) might be THE subs for music; it's so articulate it can resolve very fast riffs on the electric bass without ever getting muddy like most ported subs do. It can also get down and dirty with home theatre LFE, although obviously there are cheaper (and bigger) subs that will give you more boom for your buck there....

More "boom for your buck", but do they give you more boom? I would really like to know how the Sub 1 stacks up against the larger driver competition for HT.

I have no doubt the Sub 1 kills for music! I've seen lots of subs that can shake the room for HT, but fall apart during music. IMO, accurate realistic music is the real test of a good sub. Thanks for the report- you might be the first one on the forum with this sub. Congrats on an awesome unit!
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post #103 of 1531 Old 02-04-2010, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

More "boom for your buck", but do they give you more boom? I would really like to know how the Sub 1 stacks up against the larger driver competition for HT.

Based on specs alone, it should be comparable to the Seaton Submersive for HT applications. The Seaton has a bit more cone area, similar voice coils, and a larger enclosure, but a weaker amp. Price is in the same ballpark, with the Seaton being a bit cheaper, but the Sub 1 includes the PBK-1 and has a nicer finish.

I wouldn't ever compare a sealed sub to a ported one, as they each have unique advantages and disadvantages. But among compact sealed subs, I'll trust these Paradigm flagship offerings to be a solid value.

I haven't heard many subs in a room as large as mine (7000+ ft^3), so I really can't offer much in the way of comparison to the competition. Hopefully, some reviews and measurements will be out soon.
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post #104 of 1531 Old 02-04-2010, 10:46 AM
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I was told (via facebook) from paradigm that the sub 2 is shipping today.
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post #105 of 1531 Old 02-04-2010, 11:40 AM
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the phew, any chance on posting up some video of the driver excursion and closer pics with the grill off.... that would be awesome
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post #106 of 1531 Old 02-04-2010, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

Based on specs alone, it should be comparable to the Seaton Submersive for HT applications. The Seaton has a bit more cone area, similar voice coils, and a larger enclosure, but a weaker amp. Price is in the same ballpark, with the Seaton being a bit cheaper, but the Sub 1 includes the PBK-1 and has a nicer finish.

I wouldn't ever compare a sealed sub to a ported one, as they each have unique advantages and disadvantages. But among compact sealed subs, I'll trust these Paradigm flagship offerings to be a solid value.

I haven't heard many subs in a room as large as mine (7000+ ft^3), so I really can't offer much in the way of comparison to the competition. Hopefully, some reviews and measurements will be out soon.

I have said it before when i heard the sub 25 and the submersive it sounded like the sub 25 handles bass easier and it goes just as loud. Cant say which one goes louder you will probably have eardrum damage from both subs. But i did hear both at loud levels. I cant say whichi one is better you need them in the samer room.

Now just magine the sub2, i had to put my order on hold for the sub 25 some stuff came up. I might be looking into getting the sub2. I will be auditioning the sub2 very soon. Congrats on the purchase and yes videos please

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Rear back
(1) Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel
(2) Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides
(1) Paradigm Signature Sub25
Pioneer Elite SC-05
Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD
OPPO DV-981HD
Sony Play Station 3
APC Power Conditioner...
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post #107 of 1531 Old 02-04-2010, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

the phew, any chance on posting up some video of the driver excursion and closer pics with the grill off.... that would be awesome

I'll try to put something together tonight. I'm not going to do 100% output though, I think that might cause my house to collapse.

I think it was posted earlier in this thread, but here's a cheesy Youtube video that shows the Sub 2's excursion. That's about what my Sub1 looks like, cept bigger ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pg8uNNwC_k
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post #108 of 1531 Old 02-04-2010, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

Got my Sub 1, in Piano black. 5th one off the assembly line, according to the Serial # on the back.

They forgot to send me the PBK-1 that is supposed to come with it, but I did a quick 4-position Audyssey MultiEQ XT calibration.

I listened to the Blue Man Group: Audio DVD-Audio disc, The Police: Certifiable concert Blu-Ray, and a couple scenes from the Iron Man Blu-ray. Very, very tight compared to my old PW2200, with gobs more output. I didn't dare go past 60% on the volume dial with the rest of the system playing at reference level; it felt like the kick drum on Certifiable was punching me in the throat. The Sub 1 and its big brother (Sub 2) might be THE subs for music; it's so articulate it can resolve very fast riffs on the electric bass without ever getting muddy like most ported subs do. It can also get down and dirty with home theatre LFE, although obviously there are cheaper (and bigger) subs that will give you more boom for your buck there. But if you want a gorgeous, compact sub that really shines on music, the Sub 1 might be for you.

The excursion of those 8" drivers is absurd to watch. We're accustomed to seeing big 15" drivers with high excursion, but those six little 8" drivers slamming over an inch is a sight to behold. Especially since you can barely feel any vibration on the enclosure while the drivers are pounding.

I can't wait until I get the PBK-1 to EQ this monster!


Nice, you think the sub 2 would be overkill?
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post #109 of 1531 Old 02-04-2010, 06:18 PM
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OK, here's my rather poor attempt at a Youtube video of my Sub 1. This is about 8 dB below reference level on the receiver, with the sub volume knob on full, playing track 4 from the Blue Man Group DVD-Audio disc. The distortion is from the crappy mic on the camera, not the sub.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqvd3xW2gI

The max excursion is greater than what's shown in the video, but my wife wouldn't let me turn it up anymore. SPL measurements were C-weighted, slow, and the measurement peaked around 118 dB at 1m. I foolishly didn't wear hearing protection while filming the video, and my ears hurt now.

I wouldn't dare say any sub is overkill, lest the DIY crowd with the 20 ft^3 tapped horn behemoths appear and mock our tiny little 'toy' subs. Then the infinite baffle guys would mock them, and then the rotary sub people would mock them. Like any hobby, there is no such thing as 'too much' for some people. For me, the Sub 1 is testing the structural limits of my house, so I can't imagine why any sane person would want triple the power.
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post #110 of 1531 Old 02-05-2010, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

OK, here's my rather poor attempt at a Youtube video of my Sub 1. This is about 8 dB below reference level on the receiver, with the sub volume knob on full, playing track 4 from the Blue Man Group DVD-Audio disc. The distortion is from the crappy mic on the camera, not the sub.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqvd3xW2gI

The max excursion is greater than what's shown in the video, but my wife wouldn't let me turn it up anymore. SPL measurements were C-weighted, slow, and the measurement peaked around 118 dB at 1m. I foolishly didn't wear hearing protection while filming the video, and my ears hurt now.

I wouldn't dare say any sub is overkill, lest the DIY crowd with the 20 ft^3 tapped horn behemoths appear and mock our tiny little 'toy' subs. Then the infinite baffle guys would mock them, and then the rotary sub people would mock them. Like any hobby, there is no such thing as 'too much' for some people. For me, the Sub 1 is testing the structural limits of my house, so I can't imagine why any sane person would want triple the power.

now i need to compare the sub1 vs. sub25
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post #111 of 1531 Old 02-05-2010, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_phew View Post

The Sub 1 is testing the structural limits of my house, so I can't imagine why any sane person would want triple the power.


Thats AWESOME !!!!!!

I'd take "at least" a pair of Sub 2's - but my room is freakin huge...

Congrats and thanks for the video...
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post #112 of 1531 Old 02-05-2010, 11:29 AM
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anyone get their sub 2 yet? I should get one at the end of next week.
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post #113 of 1531 Old 02-05-2010, 01:57 PM
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My dealer and Paradigm messed up in the communication but all straight now. I am being told that Sub 2's are being built to order only right now so mine is being built and due in my hands end of next week or the following week.
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post #114 of 1531 Old 02-06-2010, 11:07 AM
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Hi guys,

would you think two sub 25 equal to the sub2? after seeing the sub 1 in action im stumped on what to order, either sub2 or a sub 25 or two sub25's instead.

I was also rreading that a you should be able to plug the sub 1 like a fridge or stove into a 240 volt inverter and it should work fine.

Has anyone thought of trying that with this these subs?

This link tells you how
http://www.equitech.com/support/120240.html

here are some linka to 240v inverters i think this is the way to go to get the 240v performance
http://www.quick220.com/220_volt.htm
http://www.invertersrus.com/powerbrighterp3500-12.html
http://www.dvdoverseas.com/store/ind...talog91_0.html
http://www.dcacpower.com/product/5000wc.html

"Using an Inverter saves you the cost of replacing 240 volt appliances with 12 volt equivalents - 12 volt versions are usually much more expensive, or possibly not available for the appliance you wish to use. "

"The following table is only a guide - there is a lot of variation in startup surge load and continuous load for similar appliances between makes/models."

Size of Inverter Required Type of Appliance


150 watts - Charger for cameras, laptops, and small power tools; DVD player; coffee grinder; kitchen mixer; printer; very small television (non LCD TVs have degaussing coils which can draw 500 watts on startup)

250 watts - Small TV, slow cooker, desktop computer, electric blanket

500 watts - Small fridge, freezer, small angle grinder, drill, large TV, washing machine (no heat)

1000 watts - Breadmaker, microwave (600 watts - keep in mind that the input power for a microwave oven is around twice its specified cooking power level, due to inefficiencies in converting to the very high frequencies needed for cooking - 2 thousand million hertz!)

1500 watts - Toaster, small airconditioner, chainsaw, vacuum cleaner, iron

2000 watts - Microwave (1200 watts), hair dryer, fan heater, iron

3000 watts - Large airconditioner

Much more info on 240v inverters here
http://www.exploroz.com/Vehicle/Elec...Inverters.aspx

Subwoofer specialist please advise

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Rear back
(1) Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel
(2) Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides
(1) Paradigm Signature Sub25
Pioneer Elite SC-05
Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD
OPPO DV-981HD
Sony Play Station 3
APC Power Conditioner...
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post #115 of 1531 Old 02-06-2010, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

Hi guys,

would you think two sub 25 equal to the sub2? after seeing the sub 1 in action im stumped on what to order, either sub2 or a sub 25 or two sub25's instead.

I was also rreading that a you should be able to plug the sub 1 like a fridge or stove into a 240 volt inverter and it should work fine.

Has anyone thought of trying that with this these subs?

This link tells you how
http://www.equitech.com/support/120240.html

here are some linka to 240v inverters i think this is the way to go to get the 240v performance
http://www.quick220.com/220_volt.htm
http://www.invertersrus.com/powerbrighterp3500-12.html
http://www.dvdoverseas.com/store/ind...talog91_0.html
http://www.dcacpower.com/product/5000wc.html

"Using an Inverter saves you the cost of replacing 240 volt appliances with 12 volt equivalents - 12 volt versions are usually much more expensive, or possibly not available for the appliance you wish to use. "

"The following table is only a guide - there is a lot of variation in startup surge load and continuous load for similar appliances between makes/models."

Size of Inverter Required Type of Appliance


150 watts - Charger for cameras, laptops, and small power tools; DVD player; coffee grinder; kitchen mixer; printer; very small television (non LCD TVs have degaussing coils which can draw 500 watts on startup)

250 watts - Small TV, slow cooker, desktop computer, electric blanket

500 watts - Small fridge, freezer, small angle grinder, drill, large TV, washing machine (no heat)

1000 watts - Breadmaker, microwave (600 watts - keep in mind that the input power for a microwave oven is around twice its specified cooking power level, due to inefficiencies in converting to the very high frequencies needed for cooking - 2 thousand million hertz!)

1500 watts - Toaster, small airconditioner, chainsaw, vacuum cleaner, iron

2000 watts - Microwave (1200 watts), hair dryer, fan heater, iron

3000 watts - Large airconditioner

Much more info on 240v inverters here
http://www.exploroz.com/Vehicle/Elec...Inverters.aspx

Subwoofer specialist please advise

personaly i have no experience with inverters, i would not touch them with a ten foot pole. i would call some electrical contractors and get a estimate. i think it would be cheaper and better this way. too bad you dont live in the dallas area i would do it myself
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post #116 of 1531 Old 02-06-2010, 01:41 PM
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Well my only other option isto use the recepticle where the fridge is pluged in. It is reslly close to where my televison is.

Would that work as well?

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Rear back
(1) Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel
(2) Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides
(1) Paradigm Signature Sub25
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post #117 of 1531 Old 02-06-2010, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

Well my only other option isto use the recepticle where the fridge is pluged in. It is reslly close to where my televison is.

Would that work as well?

house?
apartment?
condo?
were is your panel located?
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post #118 of 1531 Old 02-06-2010, 02:11 PM
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i live in a condo
panel is in the kitchen

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Rear back
(1) Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel
(2) Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides
(1) Paradigm Signature Sub25
Pioneer Elite SC-05
Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD
OPPO DV-981HD
Sony Play Station 3
APC Power Conditioner...
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post #119 of 1531 Old 02-06-2010, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by whasaaaab View Post

i live in a condo
panel is in the kitchen

your a brave one a sub 2 or sub25 in a condo when will you crank it to the max? my advice to you is either hire an electrican to run a 240v line to were your going to place your sub or just live with the 120v(you probally wont put it to the max running on 120v let alone 240v)


But if im wrong hire the electrician.
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post #120 of 1531 Old 02-06-2010, 02:28 PM
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My condo is 1100 sq ft

Even thou i will probably never run at ref levels in the condo its still nice to have for demos on movies etc...

On weekends during the day when ur aloud to pump the volume lol. I will be getting a house in a year or so anyways.

So i should not use the same plug my fridge is plugged in then?

My Current 7.1 Set-Up
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Fronts
(2) Monitor Audio RS8'S: Rear back
(1) Monitor Audio RSLCR: Centre channel
(2) Monitor Audio RSFX: Surrounds sides
(1) Paradigm Signature Sub25
Pioneer Elite SC-05
Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD
OPPO DV-981HD
Sony Play Station 3
APC Power Conditioner...
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