Paradigm Sub 1 and Sub 2 - Page 51 - AVS Forum
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post #1501 of 1573 Old 03-11-2014, 07:58 PM
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Speaking of cost, what is the street price for the sub 2 these days?
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post #1502 of 1573 Old 03-11-2014, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

You could easily surpass the performance of a sub 2 if you are willing to sacrifice space. My entire sub setup cost less than one sub 2.

What did you setup and assume space is no object. Assume no limitation, what would you do. They will bury me in this theater one day lol.

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post #1503 of 1573 Old 03-11-2014, 08:41 PM
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Quote:Originally Posted by blazar 

What did you setup and assume space is no object. Assume no limitation, what would you do. They will bury me in this theater one day lol.


One (1) Gjallerhorn (GH) has a consistent 12db advantage from 16-40Hz over a sub 2. To put that in further perspective, it would take four (4) sub 2's to match a single GH through that range.

Do four (4) GH and you would have one of the most incredible bass setups in a home...anywhere...in the world...at a cost comparable to a new Sub 2.

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post #1504 of 1573 Old 03-11-2014, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

You could easily surpass the performance of a sub 2 if you are willing to sacrifice space. My entire sub setup cost less than one sub 2.

I agree. The main advantage of Sub 1 & Sub 2 is the performance for the size. It can go in many rooms a custom array or larger set of subs wouldn't be able to fit. Also, more of a WAF.
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post #1505 of 1573 Old 03-12-2014, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tank_PD View Post

I agree. The main advantage of Sub 1 & Sub 2 is the performance for the size. It can go in many rooms a custom array or larger set of subs wouldn't be able to fit. Also, more of a WAF.

Holy crap ... That GH on diy is pretty sick. I would really need to build a semi-detached theater building to incorporate a sub that big. Also a detached building with a room within a room.

Maybe.... A massive basement theater... With a "gameroom" above it? A location with cheap land so no other house is nearby?

Or... A basement for the subwoofers which fire up into the room? It would perhaps make maintenace easy in case a driver in the sub broke at some point in the future.

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post #1506 of 1573 Old 03-18-2014, 08:50 PM
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Hmmm... I may be purchasing my sisters house shortly...

My new space would be @5000 cuft. do I purchase a 2nd SUB 1? Or.... I wonder if there's a "PRO" DIY'er out there who would consider building/shipping two of these "Gjallerhorn's" to WA?!

...I would have a $UB 1 looking for a home wink.gif

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post #1507 of 1573 Old 03-19-2014, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

One Gjallerhorn (GH) has a consistent 12db advantage from 16-40Hz over a sub 2. To put that in further perspective, it would take four sub 2's to match a single GH through that range.

Do four GH and you would have one of the mist incredible bass setups in a home...anywhere...in the world...at a cost comparable to a new Sub 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tank_PD View Post

I agree. The main advantage of Sub 1 & Sub 2 is the performance for the size. It can go in many rooms a custom array or larger set of subs wouldn't be able to fit. Also, more of a WAF.

If I might add to that, personally I think that somewhat misses the point of the Sub 1 and 2. It is not purely about the total output levels that the sub's can produce (though they are more than sufficient for 99% of properly balanced and EQ'd installs).

I have not heard a large driver sub yet, even with large dual push-pull drivers, that can achieve the detail, control and texture in the bass region that the Sub 1 and Sub 2 can. I believe that is down to the use of an array of smaller drivers and a totally inert cabinet, rather than a single large driver. I personally believe that above a certain driver size, no size of magnet structure or amplification power can propel and damp the motion of that large driver cone quickly enough to achieve the same level of control that can be achieved with the much smaller drivers.

Personally I'd much rather have that tightly controlled and detailed bass if it means sacrificing overall output potential that I would likely not use in any case as it would unbalance the mix of the audio track. Just my 2c . . . .
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post #1508 of 1573 Old 03-19-2014, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post


If I might add to that, personally I think that somewhat misses the point of the Sub 1 and 2. It is not purely about the total output levels that the sub's can produce (though they are more than sufficient for 99% of properly balanced and EQ'd installs).

I have not heard a large driver sub yet, even with large dual push-pull drivers, that can achieve the detail, control and texture in the bass region that the Sub 1 and Sub 2 can. I believe that is down to the use of an array of smaller drivers and a totally inert cabinet, rather than a single large driver. I personally believe that above a certain driver size, no size of magnet structure or amplification power can propel and damp the motion of that large driver cone quickly enough to achieve the same level of control that can be achieved with the much smaller drivers.

Personally I'd much rather have that tightly controlled and detailed bass if it means sacrificing overall output potential that I would likely not use in any case as it would unbalance the mix of the audio track. Just my 2c . . . .

Thanks for your input.

An objective scientific counter point to your subjective perspective.

Bass Myths

When I was a teenager my older step brother told me that 12" subs are the best size for car audio applications...effectively claiming that larger subs would be slower (thus effecting SQ) and smaller subs wouldn't be able to hit the same SPL. 12" subs were the perfect combination of SPL and SQ... SQL if you will.

I carried that same train of thought with me for YEARS because I never took the time to research for myself to challenge his assertation. The AVS and DIY communities have opened my eyes to the science behind speaker driver design and the importance of using TSP for proper implementation.

Up until about 2 years ago the thought of using a 12" or 15" driver as a mid-range simply boggled my mind. I thought mid-ranges shouldn't be over 8" max! lol.

wink.gif

Bottom-line: The size of the driver has nothing to do with "detail" / "control" / "texture."
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post #1509 of 1573 Old 03-19-2014, 05:07 PM
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That "feeling" of bass control and texture occurs when you get a linear bass response at sufficient SPL.

I have 4 bg radia in-wall subs with a total of 48 drivers. Approx 2.5" drivers. They sound good but overall not as good as my pair of JL audio fathoms. I suspect my JL sound better due to peak SPL events and placement flexibility.

I now use all 6 subs but i cross over the BG radia for 40hz and below in order to narrow the driver movement range while running them at -15db. The in-wall being imperfect at my Main listening position, i use them to improve multi-seat response and fill in gaps.

This worked amazingly well with extremely textured bass response.

I love having a LOT of subs... The permutations of what you can do with them is endless.

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post #1510 of 1573 Old 03-22-2014, 06:25 AM
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Just bought a Sub 1 this week - very impressed by it - first time I have had really decent bass at home.
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post #1511 of 1573 Old 04-17-2014, 07:21 AM
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Just bought a Sub 1 this week - very impressed by it - first time I have had really decent bass at home.
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post #1512 of 1573 Old 04-29-2014, 10:55 AM
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The Paradigm sub1 is on a different planet.


Subs that I have upgraded from .../Paradigme Servo 15 / SVS Servo pc Ultra something ...! tube / Velodyne SLP 1200 MK2 / SVS 13 PB ULtra "Sledge" / JL Audio F113 Fathom / Paradigm Sub 1

Marky,

I have been using a dual JL Audio F112 set up in my 3000 cubic foot theater room for the past two years. In my opinion the F112 are very nice subs but I am interested in going with two Sub1 and moving both of the JL's to the back of my room. Would you say the Sub1 can provide more slam/impact as well as reach lower than the F112? There are cases where my JL Audio's struggle (like in the transformer scene where the autobot flips over the screaming woman). Sounds like the sub1 would certainly outperform the F112 if you found it to be more capable than the F113.

Was most of your evaluation done watching movies near reference level or music? My main interest is movies.
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post #1513 of 1573 Old 05-07-2014, 04:47 AM
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I've owned a Sub1 for a while now and I have to say it is epic. Over here in the UK ,for gloss black,they are £5K,but obviously one can get it at about £4K. Even at this high price I haven't heard anything that is as detailed and articulate as the Sub1, other than a Sub2 or SL Boundary woofers. If I had the funds I would add a second without hesitation or go for a Sub2,£9k here in the UK.
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post #1514 of 1573 Old 05-23-2014, 07:20 AM
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Question for Sub 1/2 owners:
I read the PBK setup manual about when to re-run the setup and it only states if I move the sub in the room. What about if I make a phase change, do I need to re-run the setup? The simple answer would be yes, but want to hear from others if they did this and if it made any difference.

I now find that some of the bass is too heavy in certain parts of the house.

Thanks..
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post #1515 of 1573 Old 05-29-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by HDVidGuy View Post

Question for Sub 1/2 owners:
I read the PBK setup manual about when to re-run the setup and it only states if I move the sub in the room. What about if I make a phase change, do I need to re-run the setup? The simple answer would be yes, but want to hear from others if they did this and if it made any difference.

I now find that some of the bass is too heavy in certain parts of the house.

Thanks..

No, I don't believe you have to re-run PBK
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post #1516 of 1573 Old 05-29-2014, 04:47 PM
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Ok, seems like the right answer. If I have some time, I will and update the forum.
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post #1517 of 1573 Old 06-05-2014, 12:54 PM
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Hi Farsider 3000,

When I auditioned subs, I was down to JL and Paradigm.

My Choices and auditions
JL Auditions - 2 Fathom® f113 or 2 Fathom® f212

Paradigm - 2 Sub 15 (studio series) or 2 Sub 1s.


In my experience, the Paradigm Sub 15 outperformed the F113 and 1 Sub 1 outperformed 2 F113s. 2 F113s didn't have the slam the Sub 1 had in the train scene in Super-8, nor the impact in Iron Man (his suit to escape the terrorists, nor the beginning of Transformers 1, when the military base gets attacked), nor the opening scene of Lord of the Rings where they explain the origin of the rings. If only using for music at normal listening levels it may be a little harder to tell, but crank up some bass heavy tracks and you will hear a difference.

I think the F212 and Sub 1 are pretty close, but I just liked the Paradigm a little more and I have a great dealer (plus they are cheaper). You will be amazed how hard and low the 2 Sub 1 goes. We're talking 150db at like 25hz.. I shake my neighbors houses foundation when I turn those puppies up. My house sounds like it is ripping itself apart and the subs are in the basement, 6.5 ft underground sitting on carpet/drycore, then cement floors and walls.

The JL subs are awesome, so please don't take this as bashing them. The Paradigms are just really, really, really good!


I also have several other subs in my house etc.

Good luck!
Mark

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post #1518 of 1573 Old 06-05-2014, 06:59 PM
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You should have auditioned the SUB 2 if you really want to be impressed.

Nothing like it
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post #1519 of 1573 Old 06-14-2014, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamingelvises View Post
Hi Farsider 3000,

When I auditioned subs, I was down to JL and Paradigm.

My Choices and auditions
JL Auditions - 2 Fathom® f113 or 2 Fathom® f212

Paradigm - 2 Sub 15 (studio series) or 2 Sub 1s.


In my experience, the Paradigm Sub 15 outperformed the F113 and 1 Sub 1 outperformed 2 F113s. 2 F113s didn't have the slam the Sub 1 had in the train scene in Super-8, nor the impact in Iron Man (his suit to escape the terrorists, nor the beginning of Transformers 1, when the military base gets attacked), nor the opening scene of Lord of the Rings where they explain the origin of the rings. If only using for music at normal listening levels it may be a little harder to tell, but crank up some bass heavy tracks and you will hear a difference.

I think the F212 and Sub 1 are pretty close, but I just liked the Paradigm a little more and I have a great dealer (plus they are cheaper). You will be amazed how hard and low the 2 Sub 1 goes. We're talking 150db at like 25hz.. I shake my neighbors houses foundation when I turn those puppies up. My house sounds like it is ripping itself apart and the subs are in the basement, 6.5 ft underground sitting on carpet/drycore, then cement floors and walls.

The JL subs are awesome, so please don't take this as bashing them. The Paradigms are just really, really, really good!


I also have several other subs in my house etc.

Good luck!
Mark
Recently I demoed F113 against Sub 15 at home and I agreed with your experience although I only used some bass heavy music not movies. On some songs, the difference was not noticeable. Only the deepest bass music will show the difference (I used Katy Perry's - Dark Horse). The size of Sub 15 is bigger than F113 so it's a bit tricky to make space for it in an ordinary room settings.

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post #1520 of 1573 Old 07-21-2014, 01:23 PM
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I've had a Sub 1 for a few months now. Actually, I am on my second because of a technical issue.


The sub emits low level thumps when the system is first turned on and then fairly randomly after that. Might happen in five minutes or fifteen, but it happens. It's as if the autosense circuit is hypercritical and the unit is being turned on and off inappropriately.


The situation is a bit unusual. I like to watch movies in bed. Pretty good audio system and 60" flat panel in a quiet room. Sub performance is very good - except for the thumping. The unusual bit is that this system is also used for satellite TV and the volumes are low when that is on. It is when I am listening to the low volume satellite input that the thumps are noticeable. They do occur with movies (at first signal input) but, because the volumes are much higher, the low thumps are not noticeable most of the time.


It is not the prepro. The Sub 1 has thumped with nothing connected to it. A few times it has sat there popping quietly to itself (but loudly enough to be heard 15'away), and it keeps doing it after the XLR cable is disconnected. The Sub 1 will also thump every now and then with the input devices turned off. I don't think there is anything wrong with this specific unit because Paradigm replaced the first one for the same problem. This second one was better at first but is now about the same as the last one.


Paradigm is looking into it, but it's been months and I am not sure what that means. Either they can't replicate it or they can't correct it, I suspect. No, it is not a huge deal but it is bothersome. Anyone else experienced this?
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post #1521 of 1573 Old 07-21-2014, 05:36 PM
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Maybe some thing with your power? _power strip? Outlet? Conditioner? Mine makes a little thump when turning on but that is the only time.
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Oh and I always unplug mine after I am done using it.
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post #1523 of 1573 Old 07-21-2014, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rwheelwright View Post
Oh and I always unplug mine after I am done using it.
Why ?

Unnecessary. It turns off completely after 5 minutes.

And mine makes no noise at turn on or turn off. If the LED wasn't lit sometimes you would not know it is energized.
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post #1524 of 1573 Old 07-21-2014, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cunim View Post
I've had a Sub 1 for a few months now. Actually, I am on my second because of a technical issue.


The sub emits low level thumps when the system is first turned on and then fairly randomly after that. Might happen in five minutes or fifteen, but it happens. It's as if the autosense circuit is hypercritical and the unit is being turned on and off inappropriately.


The situation is a bit unusual. I like to watch movies in bed. Pretty good audio system and 60" flat panel in a quiet room. Sub performance is very good - except for the thumping. The unusual bit is that this system is also used for satellite TV and the volumes are low when that is on. It is when I am listening to the low volume satellite input that the thumps are noticeable. They do occur with movies (at first signal input) but, because the volumes are much higher, the low thumps are not noticeable most of the time.


It is not the prepro. The Sub 1 has thumped with nothing connected to it. A few times it has sat there popping quietly to itself (but loudly enough to be heard 15'away), and it keeps doing it after the XLR cable is disconnected. The Sub 1 will also thump every now and then with the input devices turned off. I don't think there is anything wrong with this specific unit because Paradigm replaced the first one for the same problem. This second one was better at first but is now about the same as the last one.


Paradigm is looking into it, but it's been months and I am not sure what that means. Either they can't replicate it or they can't correct it, I suspect. No, it is not a huge deal but it is bothersome. Anyone else experienced this?
This is not the way the unit is supposed to perform and is unacceptable.
Mine exhibits none of those characteristics
.
Time for Paradigm to make a decision and stop stalling.
You should ask them to repair it, replace it or refund your money.
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post #1525 of 1573 Old 07-21-2014, 08:43 PM
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Why ?

Unnecessary. It turns off completely after 5 minutes.

And mine makes no noise at turn on or turn off. If the LED wasn't lit sometimes you would not know it is energized.
Because days and maybe even weeks go by before I get to turn everything on and also not everything I watch needs a sub. Mine doesn't make a pop when it turns on. It is more of a errrrr sound. Hard to explain. Lights dim, makes sound then all is good.
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post #1526 of 1573 Old 07-21-2014, 08:56 PM
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Honestly, if you are having two subs in a row with the same situation, it tends to point to something on your end of the house.

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post #1527 of 1573 Old 07-22-2014, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwheelwright View Post
Because days and maybe even weeks go by before I get to turn everything on and also not everything I watch needs a sub. Mine doesn't make a pop when it turns on. It is more of a errrrr sound. Hard to explain. Lights dim, makes sound then all is good.
I checked mine for current draw while in auto off mode and when the LED is off there is zero current draw so you are gaining nothing by manually shutting it down. If in auto on mode and playing stereo or anything without LFE the LED will be off and the Sub is off.

The sound you are describing may be arcing internally.
You paid a premium price for an expensive unit, Have someone from a local company inspect and listen to what is happening.
If they determine the SUB is making the noise have Paradigm make it right
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post #1528 of 1573 Old 07-22-2014, 05:51 AM
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Thanks for the replies. Plugged straight into the wall so not a conditioning issue. I suppose it could be my AC supply, but nothing else on those circuits is having any issues. Also, I had a JMLab SubUtopia with autosensing plugged in there for a long time without ever hearing a pop.


Sadly, the local Paradigm dealer knows little about these units. However, Paradigm is only 50 miles away so I will get onto them and try to get some resolution. The key thing I hear from the above is that they do not all thump.
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post #1529 of 1573 Old 07-22-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwheelwright View Post
Because days and maybe even weeks go by before I get to turn everything on and also not everything I watch needs a sub. Mine doesn't make a pop when it turns on. It is more of a errrrr sound. Hard to explain. Lights dim, makes sound then all is good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cunim View Post
Thanks for the replies. Plugged straight into the wall so not a conditioning issue. I suppose it could be my AC supply, but nothing else on those circuits is having any issues. Also, I had a JMLab SubUtopia with autosensing plugged in there for a long time without ever hearing a pop.


Sadly, the local Paradigm dealer knows little about these units. However, Paradigm is only 50 miles away so I will get onto them and try to get some resolution. The key thing I hear from the above is that they do not all thump.
What you describe above if the lights are dimming only when turning on the unit and no sound is being reproduced that sounds like an amplifier problem overloading the power supply or even your AC circuit.
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post #1530 of 1573 Old 07-22-2014, 11:20 AM
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