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post #1 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I've got a 1800 cu ft living room with two large openings leading to the kitchen and entryway. 7200 cu ft total on the ground floor. Carpet in living room, other room tile.

I've got a Marantz sr5300, Axiom center and bookshelf speakers. No surrounds. I was looking at the HSU VTF-1 becuase it had a finish the wife liked and seemed like a good sub. Then I got her to choose a color that was on sale at HSU, the espresso color. That meant I could get the VTF-2 at a cheaper price than I was going to spend on the VTF-1! I got excited and placed the order for the VTF-2.

Then I started thinking. Is the VTF-2 going to be too much for my room? It's not that much bigger than the VTF-1 so that should be ok. Just wondering if it is silly to get something that might be too big. I'll be using for home theater. Not necessarily looking to rock the house, although this one might!
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post #2 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 01:20 PM
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Nope, you'll never regret the upgrade!
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post #3 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 01:21 PM
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you can never have too much headroom (well maybe you can but it would take a lot of VTF-2's to get there). Plus you have a very large space to fill with sound. Also, do not forget that you can adjust the level of the sub so itr blends with your other speakers.

p.s. keep in mind you are asking this question in an area where subwoofer enthusists hang out.
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post #4 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Gelinas View Post

p.s. keep in mind you are asking this question in an area where subwoofer enthusists hang out.

You mean LFE nuts?
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post #5 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 03:35 PM
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No, there is no such thing as too much sub. All you have to do is turn it down if you think there is too much bass. But you will at least have that extra overhead if you go with the VTF2, for those sudden peaks in soundtracks.
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post #6 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 03:38 PM
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If you calibrate your sub to your speakers, it won't be any more "too much sub" than your speakers are "too much speaker".

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."


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post #7 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer2211 View Post

I've got a 1800 cu ft living room with two large openings leading to the kitchen and entryway. 7200 sq ft total on the ground floor. Carpet in living room, other room tile.

I've got a Marantz sr5300, Axiom center and bookshelf speakers. No surrounds. I was looking at the HSU VTF-1 becuase it had a finish the wife liked and seemed like a good sub. Then I got her to choose a color that was on sale at HSU, the espresso color. That meant I could get the VTF-2 at a cheaper price than I was going to spend on the VTF-1! I got excited and placed the order for the VTF-2.

Then I started thinking. Is the VTF-2 going to be too much for my room? It's not that much bigger than the VTF-1 so that should be ok. Just wondering if it is silly to get something that might be too big. I'll be using for home theater. Not necessarily looking to rock the house, although this one might!

To much for "a 1800 cu ft living room with two large openings leading to the kitchen and entryway. 7200 sq ft total..."

I doubt it.

John


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post #8 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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That's why I came here, I knew you guys would set me straight! I'm pretty new at this (obviously) and wanted to make sure I didn't overdo it. Sounds like that was a silly question!

And I meant 7200 CU ft total not 7200 SQ feet! Oops!

So I guess the general consensus is there can never be too much sub!
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post #9 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 07:48 PM
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In something that size I would want no less than 6 vtf-3's, a single one could not even fill my small room enough when I had it

I have 1700' cu sealed and have an epik dynasty and will be adding another 18' sub

You will save thousands of dollars by spending more now. I would skip the HSU all together and get a n epik phoenix or 2 sentinals even better got placing around such a large space
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post #10 of 32 Old 11-20-2009, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer2211 View Post

That's why I came here, I knew you guys would set me straight! I'm pretty new at this (obviously) and wanted to make sure I didn't overdo it. Sounds like that was a silly question!

I don't know if "set you straight" is the way to put it...maybe more like "turn you to the dark side"

Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmer2211 View Post

So I guess the general consensus is there can never be too much sub!

I think you've caught on quite quickly . I use a 15" 500W ported monster in my 11'x10'x8' bedroom HT setup, and it's not even anything special compared to some users. John H, who so nonchalantly dismissed the idea of the VTF-2 being "too much" for your space has eight 15" subs in his <2,500 cubic foot room. As you can see, "overkill" is a very subjective term, and an unattainable goal on this forum.

Bottom line: The VTF-2 is a quality subwoofer. Enjoy it. In my opinion, you'll be glad you went for the VTF-2 over the VTF-1, because the headroom may come in handy at some point. Make sure to post back when you get it all set up!
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post #11 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

If you calibrate your sub to your speakers, it won't be any more "too much sub" than your speakers are "too much speaker".

Craig

Craig,
I have a sub calibration question.
When calibrating sub volume (I have two new Paradigm Signature Sub 25's), is it best to strickly set it to the same level as the right and left front and center speakers (using a Radio Shack sound level meter)? I have set the volume of the subs approximately 5-6 dB higher to boost the impact. I have equilabrated the subs using Paradigm's Perfect Base Kit. The subs are used only for home theater, not music. The boosted bass sounds great in many films. For example, in Live Free or Hard, the machine gun creates a distinct, pronounced physical impact on the sofas, without distortion, with each round fired (an amazing effect). Most bass heavy soundtracks sound fine with the boosted base. But in some films (The Dark Night, for example), there is a bit too much bass in certain scenes. I also have the surrounds boosted approximately 5-6dB as well because it seems necessary in many films. What is the best way to calibrate these subs? Should they be 'tweaked' to boost their effect or calibrated to the same level as the front speakers?
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks.
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post #12 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

Craig,
I have a sub calibration question.
When calibrating sub volume (I have two new Paradigm Signature Sub 25's), is it best to strickly set it to the same level as the right and left front and center speakers (using a Radio Shack sound level meter)? I have set the volume of the subs approximately 5-6 dB higher to boost the impact. I have equilabrated the subs using Paradigm's Perfect Base Kit. The subs are used only for home theater, not music. The boosted bass sounds great in many films. For example, in Live Free or Hard, the machine gun creates a distinct, pronounced physical impact on the sofas, without distortion, with each round fired (an amazing effect). Most bass heavy soundtracks sound fine with the boosted base. But in some films (The Dark Night, for example), there is a bit too much bass in certain scenes. I also have the surrounds boosted approximately 5-6dB as well because it seems necessary in many films. What is the best way to calibrate these subs? Should they be 'tweaked' to boost their effect or calibrated to the same level as the front speakers?
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks.

I'm not Craig but I'll weigh in anyway. The answer to your question is really two fold. Assuming your goal is accuracy in reproducing soundtracks as they were recorded (and meant to be heard), your subs should be calibrated flat with the rest of your system, and so should your surrounds. Sound engineers spend a lot of time mixing these movie soundtracks to sound as good as they can make them. Calibrating your system flat allows you to hear the soundtrack as it was intended to be heard. So technically, the "correct" way to calibrate is the way that most closely recreates the artist's original intent.

That said, peoples' tastes and preferences vary and it's not uncommon for many people to want to boost the bass levels. If you like it that way, that's fine - just realize that you're altering the sound from how it was meant to be experienced. As you've found out, not every sound engineer mixes the exact same way. In your opinion, many movies sound good with a bit of bass boost, but TDK already has enough bass so that when your boost adds more, it can become overbearing. My personal preference is to run my sub and surrounds as close to flat as possible. It's the "right" way as far as achieving sonic accuracy, but ultimately it's up to the listener to do what sounds best to him. Just my two cents.
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post #13 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 07:13 AM
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The title of this thread is preposterous!!!!!

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post #14 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

I'm not Craig but I'll weigh in anyway. The answer to your question is really two fold. Assuming your goal is accuracy in reproducing soundtracks as they were recorded (and meant to be heard), your subs should be calibrated flat with the rest of your system, and so should your surrounds. Sound engineers spend a lot of time mixing these movie soundtracks to sound as good as they can make them. Calibrating your system flat allows you to hear the soundtrack as it was intended to be heard. So technically, the "correct" way to calibrate is the way that most closely recreates the artist's original intent.

That said, peoples' tastes and preferences vary and it's not uncommon for many people to want to boost the bass levels. If you like it that way, that's fine - just realize that you're altering the sound from how it was meant to be experienced. As you've found out, not every sound engineer mixes the exact same way. In your opinion, many movies sound good with a bit of bass boost, but TDK already has enough bass so that when your boost adds more, it can become overbearing. My personal preference is to run my sub and surrounds as close to flat as possible. It's the "right" way as far as achieving sonic accuracy, but ultimately it's up to the listener to do what sounds best to him. Just my two cents.

$0.02 + $0.02 = $0.04

IOW, yeah, what he said. ^

Craig

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post #15 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

...Sound engineers spend a lot of time mixing these movie soundtracks to sound as good as they can make them. Calibrating your system flat allows you to hear the soundtrack as it was intended to be heard. So technically, the "correct" way to calibrate is the way that most closely recreates the artist's original intent.

I find that I don't always like the way the SE mixed the sound. Some tend to be too conservative on the LFE. I calibrate my system as flat as possible, then I listen to a movie for a bit and adjust the sub channel to my taste. I know the flat settings so I can easily return my system to calibrated. Fortunately, my receiver has one touch channel adjustments. So it is very easy for me to adjust to taste. Flat, my sub channel is -11. I will change that up to -1, as I did for Star Trek, to get what I want out of the bass. As easily as I can set it to -1, I can also return it to -11. I don't adjust the satellites. Just the bass level in relation to the satellites.

So, I have to disagree that the sound engineers always mix for the best balance. Some are too conservative and some mix too hot. Sound mixers, like us, have personal preferences.

Randy
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post #16 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

$0.02 + $0.02 = $0.04

IOW, yeah, what he said. ^

Craig

Thanks Lakersfan and Craig for the precise response. I have a follow up question.

I have been advised by a self proclaimed bass and HT expert to do the following set up:

1) Set all speakers to cut off all frequencies below 80Hz, and send all frequencies below 80Hz to the subs (despite the fact that my right and left front speakers are full range and my center channel speaker will go down to 40Hz +/- 3dB). I have done this and it has improved the sub performance.

2) He advised me to set all speaker distances to 0 feet and set the sub distance to 9 feet even though the sub is located two feet behind the right and left front speakers. I tried this set up, and amazingly, it seems to work well despite the fact that this set up contradicts my processor instruction manual. The room seems much smaller with the standard distance set up (measuring each speaker distance to the prime listening seat). The room feels much larger (like the walls have been removed ie: expanded sound stage), and the system actually sounds a bit better with all speaker distances set to 0 and subs set to 9 ft.. This is puzzles me.

3) He told me to plug up the ports in my speakers (Paradigm Signature Sub 25 is a closed/non ported sub). I haven't tried this yet.

Sub performance and over all home theater performance is heavily influenced not only by room size and shape but also proper set up of these important perameters. I would appreciate your comments and thoughts on these three recommendations. I welcome anyone else to comment on these topics as well.

Thank you for your comments/advice.
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post #17 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 10:46 AM
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No.


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- Dale in the #3 will never be forgotten. Thanks for the memories.
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post #18 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OvalNut View Post

No.


Tim

Too much information, Tim. You're going to confuse everybody with all this detail.

Randy
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post #19 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 11:37 AM
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Editorial comment: In the future, it would be best to start your own thread, with a title that explains your questions. That way you will get more and better responses. Also, others with similar questions to yours will be able to search and find your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

Thanks Lakersfan and Craig for the precise response. I have a follow up question.

I have been advised by a self proclaimed bass and HT expert to do the following set up:

1) Set all speakers to cut off all frequencies below 80Hz, and send all frequencies below 80Hz to the subs (despite the fact that my right and left front speakers are full range and my center channel speaker will go down to 40Hz +/- 3dB). I have done this and it has improved the sub performance.

What speakers are we talking about? What receiver?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

2) He advised me to set all speaker distances to 0 feet and set the sub distance to 9 feet even though the sub is located two feet behind the right and left front speakers. I tried this set up, and amazingly, it seems to work well despite the fact that this set up contradicts my processor instruction manual. The room seems much smaller with the standard distance set up (measuring each speaker distance to the prime listening seat). The room feels much larger (like the walls have been removed ie: expanded sound stage), and the system actually sounds a bit better with all speaker distances set to 0 and subs set to 9 ft.. This is puzzles me.

The distance control is actually a time delay. It times all the speakers so they arrive at the listening position at the same time. In order to give more detail than that, I need to know what receiver you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

3) He told me to plug up the ports in my speakers (Paradigm Signature Sub 25 is a closed/non ported sub). I haven't tried this yet.

Again, what speakers do you have?

Craig

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post #20 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

Too much information, Tim. You're going to confuse everybody with all this detail.

Yea, well, no need to be expositive in this case.

Q: Too Much Sub?
A: No.




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post #21 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 01:11 PM
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[quote=craig john;17582470]Editorial comment: In the future, it would be best to start your own thread, with a title that explains your questions. That way you will get more and better responses. Also, others with similar questions to yours will be able to search and find your post.

Hi Craig,

Speakers:
B&W 802D right and left front
B&W HTM2D center
B&W 805S right and left surround
2-Paradigm Signature Sub 25's
Krell Evo 707 Processor
Krell Evo 600 mono block amps for right and left front speakers
Krell S275 bi-amped to center channel speaker
Krell S275 for riight and left surround speakers

The room is 12" X 18", cathedral ceilings 12" high. There is one over-sized door way (approx. 6' 9" tall X 3' 9" wide).
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post #22 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 03:41 PM
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[quote=matjet;17582879]
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Editorial comment: In the future, it would be best to start your own thread, with a title that explains your questions. That way you will get more and better responses. Also, others with similar questions to yours will be able to search and find your post.]/QUOTE]

Hi Craig,

Speakers:
B&W 802D right and left front
B&W HTM2D center
B&W 805S right and left surround
2-Paradigm Signature Sub 25's
Krell Evo 707 Processor
Krell Evo 600 mono block amps for right and left front speakers
Krell S275 bi-amped to center channel speaker
Krell S275 for riight and left surround speakers

The room is 12" X 18", cathedral ceilings 12" high. There is one over-sized door way (approx. 6' 9" tall X 3' 9" wide).

Well, do you now see why a separate thread is appropriate? We've gone from an Axiom bookshelf system to a full blown B&W tower system, and from a Marantz receiver to a Krell "separates" system. Your questions are very technical , but totally unrelated to the original topic of "To Much Sub?"

Anyway, let's take your questions one at a time:

Quote:


1) Set all speakers to cut off all frequencies below 80Hz, and send all frequencies below 80Hz to the subs (despite the fact that my right and left front speakers are full range and my center channel speaker will go down to 40Hz +/- 3dB). I have done this and it has improved the sub performance.

There are several reasons to engage Bass Management, (which is what you are doing when you set crossovers on the speakers.) First, your speakers are not *quite* full range. They are -3 dB at 34 Hz and -6 dB at 27. While that's good for a speaker, it's definitely not subwoofer territory. A good subwoofer can get to 20 Hz and below. Also, your CC is -3 dB at 40 Hz. There is a whole octave of sound below that, and even more below 20 Hz. Certainly some program material has content in the CC that low. If you don't send it to the subwoofer, and the speaker(s) can't reproduce it, it's lost, never to be heard.

Second, the speakers *need* to be placed where they image the best. That placement is rarely the best placement for bass response. The subwoofer(s) can be placed where they best interact with the room for bass response. Re-direct the bass to an optimized subwoofer system and you'll have a much better chance of hearing and feeling all that good bass.

Third, if you relieve the speakers and amps of the burden of reproducing the deep bass, you free up amplifier headroom, and woofer excursion for the rest of the speakers' bandwidth. This may not be a big deal for you with those massive Krell amps, but more headroom is always better; lower distortion, more max output, etc. You may feel like you're "castrating" your speakers by taking away all that bass capability. Never fear... those is lots of bass in the output above 80 Hz. Your woofers are crossed at 350 Hz. There is over two octaves of bass in that range. Your woofers will play it more cleanly if they don't have to cover the next two octave below 80 Hz.

I agree with your "self proclaimed bass and HT expert" that it is worthwhile to use Bass Management, even with bass capable speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

2) He advised me to set all speaker distances to 0 feet and set the sub distance to 9 feet even though the sub is located two feet behind the right and left front speakers. I tried this set up, and amazingly, it seems to work well despite the fact that this set up contradicts my processor instruction manual. The room seems much smaller with the standard distance set up (measuring each speaker distance to the prime listening seat). The room feels much larger (like the walls have been removed ie: expanded sound stage), and the system actually sounds a bit better with all speaker distances set to 0 and subs set to 9 ft.. This is puzzles me.

It's a little puzzling to me also. I understand what he's trying to do, but I'm not sure how he arrived at this recommendation. Setting distance is actually setting delays for all the speakers. If you set the subwoofer furthest away, it will fire "first". Then all the other speakers will be delayed an appropriate amount of time based on their distance settings to allow them to fire when the subwoofer's wave is exactly in-phase with them. Then all the sound waves from all the speakers will arrive at the listening position at the same time.

Setting the subwoofer furthest away is usually done when there is some latency in the subwoofer. If there is a low pass filter or an EQ, these will cause latency. Are you using the Low Pass Filter? It has a bypass mode. If you bypass it, I can't see anything else in *your* sub that would cause latency. (If you are using Bass Management, it has a LPF for the subwoofer built-in, so you don't want to, (actually *shouldn't*), be using the sub's LPF along with the receiver's. Bypass it.) Anyway, ask him why he suggested 9', and why he wouldn't want all the other speakers set to their physical distance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

3) He told me to plug up the ports in my speakers (Paradigm Signature Sub 25 is a closed/non ported sub). I haven't tried this yet.

The ports in speakers are "tuned" to a frequency of resonance. That frequency is slightly above the -3 dB point of the speaker. The port itself has very little output above or below the tune frequency. However, the port output, by definition, is out-of phase with the drivers. This can cause some transient response anomolies. You can also get some port "noise" caused by the air rushing in and out of the port at high volumes. If you cross the speaker over to the sub well above the port's tune frequency, you don't use the ports anyway, so plugging them will make the speaker a "sealed" speaker. Some folks prefer the sound of a sealed speaker, but I can't say what your speakers will sound like with the ports plugged. It's worth a try.

Craig

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post #23 of 32 Old 11-22-2009, 05:52 PM
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[quote=craig john;17583567]
Quote:
Originally Posted by matjet View Post

Well, do you now see why a separate thread is appropriate? We've gone from an Axiom bookshelf system to a full blown B&W tower system, and from a Marantz receiver to a Krell "separates" system. Your questions are very technical , but totally unrelated to the original topic of "To Much Sub?"

Anyway, let's take your questions one at a time:


There are several reasons to engage Bass Management, (which is what you are doing when you set crossovers on the speakers.) First, your speakers are not *quite* full range. They are -3 dB at 34 Hz and -6 dB at 27. While that's good for a speaker, it's definitely not subwoofer territory. A good subwoofer can get to 20 Hz and below. Also, your CC is -3 dB at 40 Hz. There is a whole octave of sound below that, and even more below 20 Hz. Certainly some program material has content in the CC that low. If you don't send it to the subwoofer, and the speaker(s) can't reproduce it, it's lost, never to be heard.

Second, the speakers *need* to be placed where they image the best. That placement is rarely the best placement for bass response. The subwoofer(s) can be placed where they best interact with the room for bass response. Re-direct the bass to an optimized subwoofer system and you'll have a much better chance of hearing and feeling all that good bass.

Third, if you relieve the speakers and amps of the burden of reproducing the deep bass, you free up amplifier headroom, and woofer excursion for the rest of the speakers' bandwidth. This may not be a big deal for you with those massive Krell amps, but more headroom is always better; lower distortion, more max output, etc. You may feel like you're "castrating" your speakers by taking away all that bass capability. Never fear... those is lots of bass in the output above 80 Hz. Your woofers are crossed at 350 Hz. There is over two octaves of bass in that range. Your woofers will play it more cleanly if they don't have to cover the next two octave below 80 Hz.

I agree with your "self proclaimed bass and HT expert" that it is worthwhile to use Bass Management, even with bass capable speakers.


It's a little puzzling to me also. I understand what he's trying to do, but I'm not sure how he arrived at this recommendation. Setting distance is actually setting delays for all the speakers. If you set the subwoofer furthest away, it will fire "first". Then all the other speakers will be delayed an appropriate amount of time based on their distance settings to allow them to fire when the subwoofer's wave is exactly in-phase with them. Then all the sound waves from all the speakers will arrive at the listening position at the same time.

Setting the subwoofer furthest away is usually done when there is some latency in the subwoofer. If there is a low pass filter or an EQ, these will cause latency. Are you using the Low Pass Filter? It has a bypass mode. If you bypass it, I can't see anything else in *your* sub that would cause latency. (If you are using Bass Management, it has a LPF for the subwoofer built-in, so you don't want to, (actually *shouldn't*), be using the sub's LPF along with the receiver's. Bypass it.) Anyway, ask him why he suggested 9', and why he wouldn't want all the other speakers set to their physical distance.

The ports in speakers are "tuned" to a frequency of resonance. That frequency is slightly above the -3 dB point of the speaker. The port itself has very little output above or below the tune frequency. However, the port output, by definition, is out-of phase with the drivers. This can cause some transient response anomolies. You can also get some port "noise" caused by the air rushing in and out of the port at high volumes. If you cross the speaker over to the sub well above the port's tune frequency, you don't use the ports anyway, so plugging them will make the speaker a "sealed" speaker. Some folks prefer the sound of a sealed speaker, but I can't say what your speakers will sound like with the ports plugged. It's worth a try.

Craig

Thanks Craig,
I use the bypass on the sub and bass management through the processor. I will ask him (Barry) why he wants the sub set at 9 feet and and the speakers set at 0 rather than their actual distances. I usually get very long winded technical answers that are difficult to understand when I ask these kinds of questions. Apparently, it doesn't make sense to you either. On the other hand it does sound good and makes the room sound larger (?).

Thank you for your help.
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Thanks Craig,
I use the bypass on the sub and bass management through the processor. I will ask him (Barry) why he wants the sub set at 9 feet and and the speakers set at 0 rather than their actual distances. I usually get very long winded technical answers that are difficult to understand when I ask these kinds of questions. Apparently, it doesn't make sense to you either. On the other hand it does sound good and makes the room sound larger (?).

Thank you for your help.

If he's a forum member, have him post it. I would be interested to know.

Craig

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[quote=craig john;17583567]
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Originally Posted by matjet View Post


It's a little puzzling to me also. I understand what he's trying to do, but I'm not sure how he arrived at this recommendation. Setting distance is actually setting delays for all the speakers. If you set the subwoofer furthest away, it will fire "first". Then all the other speakers will be delayed an appropriate amount of time based on their distance settings to allow them to fire when the subwoofer's wave is exactly in-phase with them. Then all the sound waves from all the speakers will arrive at the listening position at the same time.

Setting the subwoofer furthest away is usually done when there is some latency in the subwoofer. If there is a low pass filter or an EQ, these will cause latency. Are you using the Low Pass Filter? It has a bypass mode. If you bypass it, I can't see anything else in *your* sub that would cause latency. (If you are using Bass Management, it has a LPF for the subwoofer built-in, so you don't want to, (actually *shouldn't*), be using the sub's LPF along with the receiver's. Bypass it.) Anyway, ask him why he suggested 9', and why he wouldn't want all the other speakers set to their physical distance.

Craig

I suspect this gives a wider sound stage similar to using the Concert Hall mode. Sound from the satellites will arrive a little out of phase, if you aren't sitting equidistant from all channels, and the sub, at 9', will be relatively close to in phase with the speakers closest to the same distance. This is probably going to be the mains. So, unless you are in a very large space or you have large variances in speaker distances, this 0'/9' recommendation may sound pleasing, at first. I know I have tried different sound modes and they have a pleasantness to each one, but I always end up at the normal mode with speakers set to actual distance and sub at 1' to 2' further than actual.

Randy
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It's a little puzzling to me also. I understand what he's trying to do, but I'm not sure how he arrived at this recommendation. Setting distance is actually setting delays for all the speakers. If you set the subwoofer furthest away, it will fire "first". Then all the other speakers will be delayed an appropriate amount of time based on their distance settings to allow them to fire when the subwoofer's wave is exactly in-phase with them. Then all the sound waves from all the speakers will arrive at the listening position at the same time.

Setting the subwoofer furthest away is usually done when there is some latency in the subwoofer. If there is a low pass filter or an EQ, these will cause latency. Are you using the Low Pass Filter? It has a bypass mode. If you bypass it, I can't see anything else in *your* sub that would cause latency. (If you are using Bass Management, it has a LPF for the subwoofer built-in, so you don't want to, (actually *shouldn't*), be using the sub's LPF along with the receiver's. Bypass it.) Anyway, ask him why he suggested 9', and why he wouldn't want all the other speakers set to their physical distance.



Craig[/quote]

Hi Craig,
As previously noted, I have the subs on bypass and I use the processor to set frequencies for base management (all speakers are limted to 80 Hz, both subs receive all frequencies below 80Hz and LFE). I have used the Paradigm Perfect Base Kit to flatten the frequency response in the subs. Does this cause latency?
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Originally Posted by matjet View Post

Hi Craig,
As previously noted, I have the subs on bypass and I use the processor to set frequencies for base management (all speakers are limted to 80 Hz, both subs receive all frequencies below 80Hz and LFE). I have used the Paradigm Perfect Base Kit to flatten the frequency response in the subs. Does this cause latency?

Yes, that's it... the PBK-1. The processing will add some latency, although how much I can't say.

Your processor has an auto speaker setup feature. If you use it, it will measure the "acoustic" distance of the speakers and set the distance settings appropriately. I read that the auto setup was undergoing some software revisions, so check with Krell before running it:

"A very nice microphone and cable come with the Evolution 707 for auto speaker set-up, but this feature is awaiting software revisions, so I did this manually."

http://hometheaterreview.com/krell-e...eamp-reviewed/

That was from a review from last January. They ought to have the software finished by now, especially on a $30K processor.

Craig

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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Yes, that's it... the PBK-1. The processing will add some latency, although how much I can't say.

Your processor has an auto speaker setup feature. If you use it, it will measure the "acoustic" distance of the speakers and set the distance settings appropriately. I read that the auto setup was undergoing some software revisions, so check with Krell before running it:

"A very nice microphone and cable come with the Evolution 707 for auto speaker set-up, but this feature is awaiting software revisions, so I did this manually."

http://hometheaterreview.com/krell-e...eamp-reviewed/

That was from a review from last January. They ought to have the software finished by now, especially on a $30K processor.

Craig

Hi Craig,
The Krell Evo 707 still does not have Room EQ or auto set up. It does come with a nice microphone, however. Eventually the software will be updated to accomodate these functions (I hope). In the meantime, do you have any other recommendations to properly set the speaker and sub distances?
Thanks.
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Originally Posted by matjet View Post

Hi Craig,
The Krell Evo 707 still does not have Room EQ or auto set up. It does come with a nice microphone, however. Eventually the software will be updated to accomodate these functions (I hope). In the meantime, do you have any other recommendations to properly set the speaker and sub distances?
Thanks.

If someone can afford the krell 707 then they can afford an audyssey sound Equalizer
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

If someone can afford the krell 707 then they can afford an audyssey sound Equalizer

He already has a Paradigm Perfect Bass Kit:
http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/...0-5-1.paradigm

Similar device, but we don't know how it works or whether it corrects in the time domain as well as the frequency domain. It can measure and correct for up to 10 microphone positions though. I believe it only works with Paradigm subs.

Quote:


The Krell Evo 707 still does not have Room EQ or auto set up. It does come with a nice microphone, however. Eventually the software will be updated to accomodate these functions (I hope).

That review was published last January, so probably written Sep/Oct '08. I thought that review said "You get what you pay for!" For $30K, that shouldn't be "eventually".
Quote:


In the meantime, do you have any other recommendations to properly set the speaker and sub distances?

Do you have any sound measurement capability? To do this right, you need to be able to measure what you're doing. Even a simple SPL meter connected to a duplex sound card and a laptop running REW:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
will allow you to "see" your response and optimize these settings.

In the linked thread, I did a demo of what the "phase" control does. The "distance" control can be used in similar fashion:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1189015&page=5
(Please excuse the "attitude" in that post. I was more than a little exasperated with the OP by that point, as he just didn't "get it".)

If you don't have, or want to acquire, the ability to measure your response, the only thing I can suggest is that you enter the speakers' "physical" distances, then play around with the sub's distance control. Start out with it 9' further away than the L/R speakers. Adjust it from there and see how it sounds. (Since the distance settings are all relative to each other, this is essentially the same as your friend's recommendation, except that now all the *speakers* will be the correct distances relative to each other. This should improve the phase coherence of the midrange.)

matjet, if you have any other questions, please PM me or start another thread. We have hi-jacked zimmer2211's thread long enough. Thanks.

Craig

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