*Official Danley DTS-10 Subwoofer Thread* - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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For those of you who haven't heard of the Danley DTS-10 or "Super Spud" I'm starting this thread. This has been going on for a while so for those who haven't heard I'll give a little run down of how this all came into play.

Back in April I had a subwoofer meet at my house and had several subwoofers and forum members in attendance. We weren't let down by any subwoofer that was there. All the subs had their place in the market anywhere from a smaller Bic and Outlaw sub up into DIY stuff and then pro audio gear. The sub that really caught our attention was the Danley TH-50. This is a large tapped horn (TH) that is used in pro sound applications like live concerts or in commercial movie theaters. They use only 4 of them to power the low end of an IMAX theater. For those who aren't familiar with Danley and how amazing their products are you may be thinking that these are huge multiple 18" or larger drivers in a single enclosure. Wrong. The TH-50 only has a single 15" driver. So an entire IMAX theater is driven with only 4 15" subs. A single of this subwoofer was pushing over 128 dB in my 4000+ cubic foot room and had an extremely clean distortion free sound. All the talk about how special that subwoofer was at the meet peaked some interest from the company's designer Tom Danley. He e-mailed myself and another forum member Ricci asking how we would like to get involved with a subwoofer more geared to the performance of the TH-50 but with a few differences to make it more acceptable to us home theater bassheads. We told Tom that we'd really like the same output potential as the TH-50 but with greater extension and maybe in a different enclosure layout. After working for several months developing this and tons of emails back and forth Tom has given us the DTS-10. It's a tapped horn subwoofer in a large enclosure that incorporates dual very well built 12" drivers. I say large enclosure because it is just that...very large. At around 23 cubic feet and somewhere between 250 and 300 lbs it's something unlike the smaller subwoofers that are available now. You may be thinking to yourself "How do you get great performance out of only 2-12" drivers?". Well the magic lies in the enclosure. The tapped horn configuration can take certain drivers and work what seems like miracles in terms of output and distortion. This is a LARGE subwoofer so if you're looking for something to hide behind a potted plant this is not for you. This subwoofer is comletely for the performance minded bass enthusiast who doesn't mind a large box in the room. For performance I'll move on to some measurements and comparisons.

The original thought for lower extension for us was to shoot for 15 hz for a lower end "knee" where the response drops off. Tom gave us 11 hz. That was more than we asked and I'm glad that he could deliver that extra little bit of extension. Here is a response graph measured outdoors at 1 meter with 1 watt of power to give an idea of it's extension and also how efficient it is over the frequency range.




He ok'd us to start talking about the sub in a DIY kit version and has had them available for a few weeks now. Ricci and I have received and assembled prototypes of the kits and neither of us has been disappointed in the least bit. I was the first to get the kit assembled and Ricci got his done last week. He has done several measurements in his room and more importantly he's done some comparisons between some of his subs and the DTS-10. Here's his post about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I ran 2 sampled kick drums and a bass drop like effect through the DTS10 strapped to a bridged CE4000 providing probably 2000w, 2 sealed 18" xxx's powered by a PL9.0 providing probably 3000w to each drive and also a Velodyne CT150 (ported 15", 300w rated) to stand in as a decent strength commercial sub. I increased the level of the Klipsch CF4 mains to about as loud as I thought feasible and left it there for all of the subs. Then using the SW level control I increased the output of the subs until each was either showing signs of distress or amp clipping was indicated with each sample and recorded the output of the sub with my ecm8000 into Spectrum Lab. I also used a Galaxy CM140 set to C weighting, fast response, 80-130db range, set at the listening position to record the max SPL with each sub on each sample. I figured that this would give me a sense of how dynamic each sub system could be when called upon in short bursts. I ran the subs both with and without the mains and recorded the results.

First thing of note is that the set-ups aren't exactly the same, as the subs are in as close to the same but still slightly different positions and subject to the room acoustics, so just take this as a sort of rough estimate of the dynamic capabilities of each influenced by the room. An 80hz xover was used. Also I don't think that the SPL meter is capturing the peak levels of these short events accurately. It seems to be really low compared to what I experienced. Tom commented about this a couple of times before, about instantaneous clipping going unnoticed and the inability of measurements to pick up the event fully. Makes one wonder.

The second sample in each waterfall is with the level reduced 5db.



Here's the first kick drum electrical.



Velodyne CT150 plus mains max output kick 1 112.2db. Clean but not as thick sounding as the other subs. Compressed.




Dual XXX plus mains max output kick 1 113.8db. Clean, seemed louder than registered on the meter, good attack. Ran out of amp.



DTS10 plus mains max output kick 1 116.8db. Clean, loud, huge attack, seemed much louder than the meter registered.


Velodyne CT150 alone max output kick 1 100.7db. Much weaker without the mains, compressed and not as deep or clean sounding.


Dual XXX alone max output kick 1 110.5db. Very clean, loud, ran out of amp. Seemed louder than indicated.



DTS10 alone max output kick 1 113db. Clean, very loud. Seemed louder than indicated.



Kick drum #2 electrical.


Velodyne CT150 with mains kick #2 max output 108.9db. Fairly clean, not as deep, seems compressed.



Dual XXX with mains kick #2 max output 113.8db. Loud, clean, good attack, seemed louder than measured, ran out of amp.


DTS10 with mains kick #2 max output 117.4db. Very loud, seemed fairly clean still, massive attack.



Velodyne CT150 alone kick #2 max output 104.4db. Weaker without the mains, less extended sounding, compressed.



Dual XXX alone kick #2 max output 110db. Clean, ran out of amp, louder subjectively than the meter indicates.



DTS10 alone kick #2 max output 113.8db. Very loud, seems clean and much louder than indicated by the meter.



Bass drop electrical


Velodyne CT150 bass drop with mains max output 109.1db. Very compressed lows, overdriven sounding.



Dual XXX bass drop with mains max output 113.2db. Very clean, loud, big room shake, ran out of amp, seemed louder.



DTS10 bass drop with mains max output 115db. Very loud, seemed louder, nice room shake. Thought I detected a hint of an over driven quality to the bass.



Velodyne CT150 bass drop alone max output 100.8db. Again much weaker without the mains. Squashed low end, sounded over driven, limited. Not much room shake. Mains outgun this sub.



Dual XXX bass drop alone max output 110.2db. Clean sounding output. Big room shake. Amp limited. Seemed louder.



DTS10 bass drop alone max output 110.7db. Loud, seemed louder than measured, good room shake, I think that the drivers were beginning to reach their excursion limits on this test. Sounded like there was some doubling going on without any masking content from other speakers. Right below amp clipping. Turning it down a few notches removed this aspect. Output did not seem to be compressing however.




As you can see the DTS-10 has a massive amount of bass output particularily above 40hz. It is very efficient. Seems to be about 8 or 9db more efficient than this particular pair of sealed 18's, which are admittedly innefficient above 30hz. Allowing it to produce higher levels on regular old rock music than the pair of 18's with 4.5db more power available to them. Granted I don't really need the last few db of either set-up except at the low end extreme. The dual 18's do have the headroom advantage below 30hz I believe, but the DTS-10 is still very impressive in that regard. Further testing in that area will come later. I'd really like to redo these tests outdoors at a later date to remove the effects of the room.


The DTS-10 is now available in a finished non DIY version that can be purchased with or without amplification. It's dimensions are 60"x44"x16". It has multiple placement options one of which can be used as a riser for a sofa. I'm waiting on a MSRP of the finished version from the guys at Danley Sound Labs so as soon as I hear something I'll let you guys know. If anyone has any questions I'll do my best to answer and several of the guys from Danley including Tom Danley himself will jump in the conversation from time to time.
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post #2 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 09:29 PM
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MSRP is a big question here. Sure it will be worth it though but would love to know if it ends up being a real world option for me
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post #3 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 09:30 PM
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This will be the way I'll have to go, because of the limited time offer on the DIY kits. Great first post Brandon. You could also include a couple pictures of the final product.

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post #4 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have any finished pics of mine yet as I haven't painted/stained it to a nice finish yet. I have a small pic of the very first prototype made for their shop and trade shows. They just had it at a professional cinema trade show in orlando about a couple weeks ago. Here's that pic with the bare cabinet pieces also.



I'll ask the Danley guys if they can post a higher resolution pic to get a better idea of what it looks like in a finished version. Their finishing options are just about any that you can imagine. Here's some shots from their web page of custom jobs they've done.



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post #5 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

This will be the way I'll have to go, because of the limited time offer on the DIY kits. Great first post Brandon. You could also include a couple pictures of the final product.

How many did you decide you are going to get?
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post #6 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 10:10 PM
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I meant your fully assembled, unfinished DTS 10. Sorry.

I've decided on four of them, unless I'm advised otherwise once the final house plans and the room's dimensions are settled. My guess is it will be priced similar to the TH 50, hopefully a little less.

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post #7 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

The DTS-10 is now available in a finished non DIY version that can be purchased with or without amplification. It's dimensions are 60"x44"x16". It has multiple placement options one of which can be used as a riser for a sofa.

How much was the DIY kit and what's the recommended amplification for individual/both drivers?

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post #8 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 10:34 PM
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The kit costs $975 including drivers + shipping. I believe each box can take 1000w program, 2000w for peaks.

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post #9 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

The kit costs $975 including drivers + shipping. I believe each box can take 1000w program, 2000w for peaks.


Hi,

you forgot packing: (kit costs $975 + packing $59) = $1034 + shipping
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post #10 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 11:25 PM
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That's right! Good man

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post #11 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

The kit costs $975 including drivers + shipping. I believe each box can take 1000w program, 2000w for peaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZivkoF View Post

Hi,

you forgot packing: (kit costs $975 + packing $59) = $1034 + shipping

Thanks!

Anyhow is there an estimate date for when the non-DIY will be available?

And for the guys who were able to test this thing out, is it LOADS better than a SVS PB13-Ultra (if you happen to have heard both the SVS and the Danley)? I mean, the Danley DTS-10 sure has great extension but I think its dimensions would prove troublesome to many.

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post #12 of 108 Old 11-24-2009, 11:39 PM
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This is just an educated guess, but it would take quite a few PB 13 ultras to keep up with this beast. 1W sensitivity @ 1m outdoors is 90db @ 11hz and between 100-110db from 30hz-80hz.

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post #13 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 02:24 AM
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Thanks Brandon! Great info. Can we get a link of the amps that can come as an option?
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post #14 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blued888 View Post

Thanks!

Anyhow is there an estimate date for when the non-DIY will be available?

And for the guys who were able to test this thing out, is it LOADS better than a SVS PB13-Ultra (if you happen to have heard both the SVS and the Danley)? I mean, the Danley DTS-10 sure has great extension but I think its dimensions would prove troublesome to many.


Not even a question about ONE PB13....Ricci is testing the DTS-10 vs his TWO sealed XXX 18" subs that have thousands of Watts available. His XXX subs would be compared to something like 6 PB13s

Heck, MKTheater is testing 2 DTS-10 to replace EIGHT sealed subs.

Lets just say that there IS NOT a single commercial sub that can compete with the DTS-10, none!


You are right though the ONLY question will be its size, Its like sticking a BIG DLP TV in your room that is 16" deep.


1. Make it part of your wall but placing it up against the wall, it sticks out 16" but you can trim it out and then paint it the same color as the wall.
2. Make it a platform for your seating area.

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post #15 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 08:12 AM
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I'd advise anyone who is interested in this subwoofer but short on money, to just go ahead and get the kit version. The finished version will be significantly more expensive I'm sure. The kit is not difficult to put together. It just takes a day and a little elbow grease. I thought it was fun. You could pay someone else to finish it if it's that big of a deal. All said it is going to be about $1150 to get the kit plus drivers shipped to you and add another $50 for miscellaneous items needed to construct it (glue,screws,input jack, etc) and add either a 1000w plate amp or a Behringer EP2500/4000. That will put you at right about $1500. You may be thinking well what about "X" commercial $2000 subwoofer...How does it compare to this? In short, it doesn't from a dynamics+ extension+maximum output+distortion perspective. It's like comparing an F150 to a Mack dump truck. If you are weighing things such as how it looks, how much it weighs and what the significant other will say then this may not be the sub for you. However if you are a true bass fanatic and simply want maximum performance for your dollar and the rest is much less of a consideration for the most part this sub or a pair should really be considered.
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post #16 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Agreeing to what ricci said and adding that any talk of the diy kit should go in that thread on the diy forum. The kit is only available a limited time whereas the finished version will more than likely become part of their product line for a long time.


For us guys that have done diy builds before the kit is a pretty easy thing to do. It took me about 5 hours to build mine plus another couple running wire, mounting drivers etc. Add in painting or staining and waiting for glue and such to dry you are looking at a good 2 or 3 days or more from start to finish.


What the finished version offers is a complete package that is plug and play. For someone not wanting to put the work in the finished product is for you.


Any pricing for now should call Danley or contact them on their web page or contact an authorized dealer until a msrp is released.
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post #17 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 09:20 AM
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The kit took 4 hours for the first and then 1.5 hours for the second once we knew what to do. The dts-10 will compare to 8 ultra's but have deeper extension. I am sure the price will more than double for the finished version, maybe triple without amp.

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post #18 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I'd advise anyone who is interested in this subwoofer but short on money, to just go ahead and get the kit version. The finished version will be significantly more expensive I'm sure. The kit is not difficult to put together. It just takes a day and a little elbow grease. I thought it was fun. You could pay someone else to finish it if it's that big of a deal. All said it is going to be about $1150 to get the kit plus drivers shipped to you and add another $50 for miscellaneous items needed to construct it (glue,screws,input jack, etc) and add either a 1000w plate amp or a Behringer EP2500/4000. That will put you at right about $1500. You may be thinking well what about "X" commercial $2000 subwoofer...How does it compare to this? In short, it doesn't from a dynamics+ extension+maximum output+distortion perspective. It's like comparing an F150 to a Mack dump truck. If you are weighing things such as how it looks, how much it weighs and what the significant other will say then this may not be the sub for you. However if you are a true bass fanatic and simply want maximum performance for your dollar and the rest is much less of a consideration for the most part this sub or a pair should really be considered.

I thought about this sub for a few day's and although I can't be sure,, I would like this to be the sub that will be the one that keep's me happy for year's to come. I have been messing with subs for a couple of years now and I have not been completely happy. I hope to change that with the DTS 10. No doubt that this will be the 800lb Gorilla in my room that more than likely will be noticed much more by the wife than myself but as you say Ricci that is not an issue with me nor will the wife make it one, I have her word even though she has only seen pictures and she may loose her breath a little when she see's it in person. I also know that this will probably be my only chance to own a 2-3 thousand dollar sub for the foreseeable future and maybe for ever so I had to go for it. I will have it by the end of next week and I can't wait.
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post #19 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 12:43 PM
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it's supposedly mrsp at around 3k
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post #20 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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it's supposedly mrsp at around 3k

While that is a possibility I don't know for sure if it is that price. I would like to leave the speculation out and we will see if I can get correct prices or get them from Danley employees.
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post #21 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

While that is a possibility I don't know for sure if it is that price. I would like to leave the speculation out and we will see if I can get correct prices or get them from Danley employees.

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post #22 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 01:06 PM
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It never ceases to amaze me how these assembled DIY jobbers more than TRIPLE in cost when assembled even though so many attest to how quickly they can be put together.

Think about it: The kit: parts+shipping+other= $11-1200?

Finished sub: Finished sub+shipping (same weight as unassembled)= $3000?

Now, if it takes a layman 5 hours to put it together, you'd like to think you could nearly cut it in half with a pro-shop?

So then, $2000 extra, for two hours of labor and a truly meager amount of additional materials?

What am I missing?

James

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post #23 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 01:13 PM
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MK,

If I buy a kit will you put mine together for me in two hours for $500?! I'll cover your air-fare, feed ya', and STILL save over $1000!

James

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post #24 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

It never ceases to amaze me how these assembled DIY jobbers more than TRIPLE in cost when assembled even though so many attest to how quickly they can be put together.

Think about it: kit+shipping+other= $11-1200?

Finished sub: Sub+shipping (same weight as unassembled)= $3000?

Now, if it takes a layman 5 hours to put it together, you'd like to think you could nearly cut it in half with a pro-shop?

So then, $2000 extra, for two hours of labor and a truly meager amount of additional materials?

What am I missing?

James

Exactly why I didn't want to speculate the price. We don't know if that is the price and if it were the price do you get the amp or no? You also forget that they are not doing this for charity. They are a for profit company. If you like the price of the kit by all means get one. If you can't assemble it yourself or just don't want to you can buy the finished product.
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post #25 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
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What am I missing?

James

The fact that the DIY units may be being sold at little to no profit to introduce the sub to the market and build buzz. Sort of beta testing. So, for production units you need to consider overhead, amortizing research and development time, testing what the market will bear and, most importantly, profit.
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post #26 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Exactly why I didn't want to speculate the price. We don't know if that is the price and if it were the price do you get the amp or no? You also forget that they are not doing this for charity. They are a for profit company. If you like the price of the kit by all means get one. If you can't assemble it yourself or just don't want to you can buy the finished product.

Thanks, but I didn't "forget" anything. Of course they are in a business for profit. That said, I was merely asking if I'm missing anything for the POSSBLE tripling of the cost than a couple of man hours and glue.

James

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Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #27 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whumpf View Post

The fact that the DIY units may be being sold at little to no profit to introduce the sub to the market and build buzz. Sort of beta testing. So, for production units you need to consider overhead, amortizing research and development time, testing what the market will bear and, most importantly, profit.


Much more reasonable, thanks.

I have no problem at all with profit. The obvious question though is: if it's all about astronomical profit, shouldn't they be selling the kits for more than $900 dollars, if a completed unit pushes $3000 (even though I acknowledge the point of introductory pricing, this still seems awfully low)?

Importantly, I'm not really using Danley and their entrance into the marketplace as the sole template anyways. Doesn't ed sell DIY kits for 1/3 of the finished product?

Again, it would seem logical then that because all you're really adding to the equation is a few man hours and the slightest of materials, that the DIY kits are deals of a lifetime, and the finished subs are ridiculously over-priced for a massive sum of consumers.

Again, no problem with a premium for assembly, but $2000 for a few hours is a bit steep.


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post #28 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 01:43 PM
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Speaker retailers generally make a 50% profit which means the speakers themselves can be easily 75%+ profit with very little material cost involved.

It is a little unfair to get mad at them for the markup because it is more about the value of the finished product. Simply you can't get anything else on the market assembled for $3000 that can compete.
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post #29 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 01:47 PM
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I'm not mad. I'm merely asking if I'm missing anything for the extra $2000 other than 2-3 hours of labor and glue.

If it's pure profit, god bless them.

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #30 of 108 Old 11-25-2009, 01:48 PM
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Forget it, as this is pointless speculation at this juncture as far as Danley is concerned. My main thrust was DIY in general and that is beyond the scope of this thread.

Put it this way: I think the reason epik doesn't offer DIY is obvious.

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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