Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 77Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #271 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 06:32 AM
Member
 
Tank45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Can anyone tell me... cannot find any info anywhere.... should I plug my new 600w f-15 into a high voltage surge protector or just straight into the wall?
Tank45 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #272 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 07:02 AM
Exclusively Servo
 
Rythmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

So....which of the Rythmik subs are the most musical?

They are all very musical. They all have the same articulate, transparent, effortless, and coherent bass sound. You can tell the difference only when you place them side-by-side and listen very carefully. I contribute their distinct sound to 1) low intrinsic Q value (only 0.33, 3x lower than nonservo), and 2) extremely low memory effect. The latter is only possible via servo.

If one does not play very loud, then F12G with SW12-4 paper cone driver is very good and has slight edge in that area. Very dynamic at low level signals. This is particularly good if it is a pure 2ch system and when the background noise can be very quiet. The shortcoming of paper cone is it is not stiff enough. In HT, when huge short spurs of bass is often, the metal cone performs better to overcome the air spring (in both sealed and vented subwoofers) to stay in control. One can use a simple cone push test in sealed box. Our metal cone is very hard to press. Other similar paper cone sealed subs are still pretty easy. This test will not work in vented subs, because a slow push is equivalent to exercising the cone with a very low frequency signal and we know at close to 0hz frequency, vented sub behaves like in free air and very easy to push. One actually needs to push exactly right to emulate a 20hz stimulus to feel the reaction force.

I designed SW12-4 too and therefore I have access to 15" paper cone. I cannot get them to play right even with servo. That is the main reason, we don't see 15" paper cone from our line-up. It is possible to work in OB/IB application, but I don't want to step in IB cult community, and for OB, the 12" OB drivers fits in Danny's application perfectly.

So again, if one can comfortably crossover at lower frequency, the 15" is actually a better choice, having even better dynamic headroom. Between D15 and F15, I would say F15 is slightly more musically if one cannot xover at 60hz or below. I know a lot of customers like its furniture look and its appeal to spouse. But knowing the trick for them to work is also very important. Also don't put D15 on wood subfloor.


Allen and his friend (Mike?) in San Antonio came over to my house and I demoed the D15 with my 340SE fronts, Denon 4802 (hand modified to use first order RC to front channels), and an Ayre CX5xe. I crossover at 80hz and it is a music only system. My HT system is in my great room, but they are less interested. My interconnects are Kimber KCAG for the subwoofer and Discovery Signature for others. My power cables are Black Sand (from Canada). My 2ch room is upstairs with wood sub-floor, not a very ideal situation for D15, but he insisted on it. So,.. I have no problem with that. The trip was reported in Emotiva forum. He brought his own CDs. He was very surprised by the details in the sound (as compared with his own system). He contributes that to the CD players (I understand, it is 4k or more in retail). After he has gone through all his listening, I suggest that we lay the D15 side way so that the cone faces us and he immediately hears the difference. I was busy entertaining both and I didn't listen carefully. Besides, I am not really familiar with the CD he brought.

If there is enough demand by show of hands, I may be able to get some in for D12. But I basically like the idea that the cone should be facing us as much as possible to produce a strong direct sound energy. It is the cleanest sound. Anything that bounds off the boundary will mix with the resonance caused by the boundaries.
Rythmik is offline  
post #273 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 07:10 AM
Exclusively Servo
 
Rythmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by porksoda View Post

anyone here compare the f12 or f15 with a seaton or empire?

That would be interested. I think it is fair to compare two F15-600 configuration with one Seaton. If we do that the total amplifier output is about the same (I am pretty sure Seaton is very accurate in spec rating, I admire his technical knowledge).

I had a plan for dual 15" system that I called F25. I will show a drawing later for a public concept review. I wasn't very enthusiastic about it because it will be big and more expensive to transport. In the end, one can probably save a couple of hundreds after considering the possible discount for a pair of F15 vs one F25. But there seems to be a growing interests in dual. I will have those dual system coming in end the this months. A matching enclosures can move the sales faster. That would be a good motivation for me to get that going.






It is different from Submerssive or Empire. All drivers face forward. There is a divider between them so that there is no interference between two drivers (that is, push one driver and the other driver won't comes out). Depth 20.8", height 33", and width 19" to preseve the largest volume for efficiency.
Rythmik is offline  
post #274 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 07:12 AM
Advanced Member
 
Iain-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 504
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 45
"Can anyone tell me... cannot find any info anywhere.... should I plug my new 600w f-15 into a high voltage surge protector or just straight into the wall?"


You may want to consider this:
http://www.tripplite.com/en/products...xtModelID=3980
Iain- is online now  
post #275 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 07:27 AM
Member
 
Zmaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

They are all very musical. They all have the same articulate, transparent, effortless, and coherent bass sound. You can tell the difference only when you place them side-by-side and listen very carefully. I contribute their distinct sound to 1) low intrinsic Q value (only 0.33, 3x lower than nonservo), and 2) extremely low memory effect. The latter is only possible via servo.

If one does not play very loud, then F12G with SW12-4 paper cone driver is very good and has slight edge in that area. Very dynamic at low level signals. This is particularly good if it is a pure 2ch system and when the background noise can be very quiet. The shortcoming of paper cone is it is not stiff enough. In HT, when huge short spurs of bass is often, the metal cone performs better to overcome the air spring (in both sealed and vented subwoofers) to stay in control. One can use a simple cone push test in sealed box. Our metal cone is very hard to press. Other similar paper cone sealed subs are still pretty easy. This test will not work in vented subs, because a slow push is equivalent to exercising the cone with a very low frequency signal and we know at close to 0hz frequency, vented sub behaves like in free air and very easy to push. One actually needs to push exactly right to emulate a 20hz stimulus to feel the reaction force.

I designed SW12-4 too and therefore I have access to 15" paper cone. I cannot get them to play right even with servo. That is the main reason, we don't see 15" paper cone from our line-up. It is possible to work in OB/IB application, but I don't want to step in IB cult community, and for OB, the 12" OB drivers fits in Danny's application perfectly.

So again, if one can comfortably crossover at lower frequency, the 15" is actually a better choice, having even better dynamic headroom. Between D15 and F15, I would say F15 is slightly more musically if one cannot xover at 60hz or below. I know a lot of customers like its furniture look and its appeal to spouse. But knowing the trick for them to work is also very important. Also don't put D15 on wood subfloor.


Allen and his friend (Mike?) in San Antonio came over to my house and I demoed the D15 with my 340SE fronts, Denon 4802 (hand modified to use first order RC to front channels), and an Ayre CX5xe. I crossover at 80hz and it is a music only system. My HT system is in my great room, but they are less interested. My interconnects are Kimber KCAG for the subwoofer and Discovery Signature for others. My power cables are Black Sand (from Canada). My 2ch room is upstairs with wood sub-floor, not a very ideal situation for D15, but he insisted on it. So,.. I have no problem with that. The trip was reported in Emotiva forum. He brought his own CDs. He was very surprised by the details in the sound (as compared with his own system). He contributes that to the CD players (I understand, it is 4k or more in retail). After he has gone through all his listening, I suggest that we lay the D15 side way so that the cone faces us and he immediately hears the difference. I was busy entertaining both and I didn't listen carefully. Besides, I am not really familiar with the CD he brought.

If there is enough demand by show of hands, I may be able to get some in for D12. But I basically like the idea that the cone should be facing us as much as possible to produce a strong direct sound energy. It is the cleanest sound. Anything that bounds off the boundary will mix with the resonance caused by the boundaries.

Brian,

Is this recommendation esp cutoff freq for F15 any different with the new 1510 with H600? I plan 80hz with 24db roll off
Zmaximus is offline  
post #276 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 08:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rick240's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 3,542
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

If there is enough demand by show of hands, I may be able to get some in for D12. But I basically like the idea that the cone should be facing us as much as possible to produce a strong direct sound energy. It is the cleanest sound. Anything that bounds off the boundary will mix with the resonance caused by the boundaries.

So how go the thoughts on a possible F8 or F10?

rick240 is offline  
post #277 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 08:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,713
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 11
What will the price of the E15 be and will it perform as well as the F15?
KLee is offline  
post #278 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 09:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Brian

In a 4600 cubic foot room what would be the best choice for a DIY sealed enclosure and amp if the size of the enclosure was not a concern using 15" drivers? All drivers would be front firing and if duals they would be stacked in a vertical plane or opposing. 50%/50% music and HT. Sub would have about a 25' interconnect to my processor.

What configuration will be available in the near future using the 600 watt amp?

Any way to add one mono xlr input to the 600amp? For room on the board I would not need the RCA Stereo inputs or high level in. The PEQ would be nice though.

Will the DS1510 be available in 8 ohm and will a single 600w drive a pair with out clipping?

Just looking at all the options before pulling the trigger. Thanks

One idea was combining two sand boxes like what Danny did but scaled for two of the 15" driver's that would be front firing stacked vertically. That would give me a box 20.5"w x 19"d x 45"h. That would give me 3.631 Cu Ft per speaker with all the interior baffles in place. There would be four braces spaced 3.2" apart with a .75 wall between the two compartments. The front and rear baffle are 1.5" thick and all other walls are 1.5" thick Outer 3/4 MDF-3/8 sand-3/8 MDF.

Having a modified 600PEQ Amp with a mono XLR input in place of the RCA or High level inputs driving both speakers.
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #279 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 03:01 PM
Exclusively Servo
 
Rythmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zmaximus View Post

Brian,

Is this recommendation esp cutoff freq for F15 any different with the new 1510 with H600? I plan 80hz with 24db roll off

Their cutoff frequency would be same. I have designed the two drivers to have almost same T/S parameters. 80hz is good for either of them.
Rythmik is offline  
post #280 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 04:17 PM
Exclusively Servo
 
Rythmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Van Belkom View Post

Brian

In a 4600 cubic foot room what would be the best choice for a DIY sealed enclosure and amp if the size of the enclosure was not a concern using 15" drivers? All drivers would be front firing and if duals they would be stacked in a vertical plane or opposing. 50%/50% music and HT. Sub would have about a 25' interconnect to my processor.

What configuration will be available in the near future using the 600 watt amp?

Any way to add one mono xlr input to the 600amp? For room on the board I would not need the RCA Stereo inputs or high level in. The PEQ would be nice though.

Will the DS1510 be available in 8 ohm and will a single 600w drive a pair with out clipping?

Just looking at all the options before pulling the trigger. Thanks

One idea was combining two sand boxes like what Danny did but scaled for two of the 15" driver's that would be front firing stacked vertically. That would give me a box 20.5"w x 19"d x 45"h. That would give me 3.631 Cu Ft per speaker with all the interior baffles in place. There would be four braces spaced 3.2" apart with a .75 wall between the two compartments. The front and rear baffle are 1.5" thick and all other walls are 1.5" thick Outer 3/4 MDF-3/8 sand-3/8 MDF.

Having a modified 600PEQ Amp with a mono XLR input in place of the RCA or High level inputs driving both speakers.

First, if enclosure size is not an issue, I would recommend dual 8ohm 15" drivers driven by H600PEQ amp. If you'd like to have XLR, you have limited option, instead of using H600+ 2xDS1500, you need 2xA370XLR+2xDS1500. If you can go with vented sub, you can also do that. You can use A370XLR and DS1500 in vented sub. It definitely has more output than sealed sub (3-4db more). It is very odd, most of our CI customers don't pick vented sub. Our vented subs also sound more musical than nonservo vented sub.

XLR amp is in the planning. I would like to see if anyone has objection if I drop speaker level inputs completely.
Rythmik is offline  
post #281 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 04:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

I would like to see if anyone has objection if I drop speaker level inputs completely.

Not I. Running speaker lines is a hassle, wastes power, and potentially causes more problems with hum and noise coupling. Given the proliferation of AVRs with a sub output (do any not have one?) it's hard to see how anybody needs speaker-level inputs now, and of course you can always use a Y from the preamp output if desired. I haven't needed them since the 80's (if then).

FWIWFM - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #282 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 05:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
"First, if enclosure size is not an issue, I would recommend dual 8ohm 15" drivers driven by H600PEQ amp. If you'd like to have XLR, you have limited option, instead of using H600+ 2xDS1500, you need 2xA370XLR+2xDS1500. If you can go with vented sub, you can also do that. You can use A370XLR and DS1500 in vented sub. It definitely has more output than sealed sub (3-4db more). It is very odd, most of our CI customers don't pick vented sub. Our vented subs also sound more musical than nonservo vented sub."

But a sealed servo sub sounds more musical than servo vented sub in overall conditions correct?

I think everyone likes the sealed sub overall.

Dropping the speaker level and adding the XLR in and out with the PEQ would be a killer amp.

It would give the flexability in todays world.

1- Be able to use with or without a processor.

2- Be able to use as full range with L & R speakers using L & R RCA inputs.

3- Be able to use RCA for short runs or XLR for long runs from Preamp/Processor to Sub

4- With PEQ with either short or long interconnects Be able to tune sub for room conditions.

Just seems like a winner combination to me.

Any thoughts?

I would be the first to purchase one to try out and post a report on my findings even if it was a modded amp with writing and holes that should not be there.
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #283 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 06:58 PM
Exclusively Servo
 
Rythmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 72
I have customers explain that they still have 2ch system and HT system two systems in one room. I don't blame them. If I have invested over 5 grands in a high end tube preamp and solid state power amp, I would do the same. I don't remember the exact details. But this seems to be how it works. The 2ch system has a dedicated expensive power amplifier driving their front speakers full range. A 2ch preamp feeds HT receiver with bypass enabled and the HT front channel pre-out goes to dedicated power amp. This is in 2ch mode. In HT mode, however, the 2nd preamp is not active. The customer wants to share subwoofer in both systems. So that presents a problem. The solution I am thinking is to change those two High pass filter RCA output to two inputs for HT sub connection, as shown



The idea is this. All phase and xover control will be available to regular 2ch system line inputs. The front speakers in this case run full range. So customer should use low pass filter setting and cover/phase control to get the best tuning for their 2ch setup first. Once this is done, the next step is tune the HT system. Since HT menu has xover and delay time adjustment, it does not need xover adjustment and phase. So those two controls will be bypassed. Next the level control. Since there is a level control menu for subwoofer in HT, the customer will use that to set up the correct level for subwoofer in HT mode. This way, we can save space for one level control. Since we have two inputs and in order to increase adjustment range, one input has x1 gain and another has x4 gain. The customer can use x1 gain by default and if the gain is insufficient, then he can then plug in x4 input.

Let me know if this will work.
Rythmik is offline  
post #284 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 07:00 PM
Exclusively Servo
 
Rythmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Austin
Posts: 1,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

What will the price of the E15 be and will it perform as well as the F15?

E15 in black oak is $1099. Piano finish is $150 more. The decrease in output from E15 is very small (less than 1db) and only limited to below 25hz or so.
Rythmik is offline  
post #285 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 07:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Would HT and Line in be totally isolated?

Is the HT a mono input with either a 0DB or 12DB gain?

In this way with a "Y" adapter from the L&R front outputs of the processor the two sets of interconnects will go to the L&R channels inputs of the main amp and L&R inputs of the Sub amp. You would have full range going to the L&R inputs of the main amp and have full range going to the Sub inputs. The sub PEQ controls and crossover will level the sub to the room.

In HT the mono sub output from the processor will go to the 0Db or 12Db mono input of the Sub depending on the gain needed and the processors crossover and parametic sub equalizer will take care of the duties of balancing the sub.

Am I correct?

Now to get rid of the speaker level inputs and replace with the XLR Master and Slave and you would have an unbeatable combo of an amp!

Your thoughts?
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #286 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 07:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BRADH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Spencer, In
Posts: 1,004
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

E15 in black oak is $1099. Piano finish is $150 more. The decrease in output from E15 is very small (less than 1db) and only limited to below 25hz or so.

Brian

What is the size of the E15.

Thanks
Brad
BRADH is offline  
post #287 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 07:59 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
E15

17" Wide
19" High
18" Deep
Add 1" for griil
Add 1" for rear knobs on amp
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #288 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 08:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
BRADH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Spencer, In
Posts: 1,004
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Van Belkom View Post

E15

17" Wide
19" High
18" Deep
Add 1" for griil
Add 1" for rear knobs on amp

Thanks for the the info. One last question. This is a servo 600 watt amp
and ready for ordering Monday?


Thank

Brad
BRADH is offline  
post #289 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 08:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It is a Servo Amp but you need to talk to Brian about availability.
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #290 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 08:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ddgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: In A Government Yard In SacTown
Posts: 1,830
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

... a 2ch preamp feeds HT receiver with bypass enabled and the HT front channel pre-out goes to dedicated power amp. This is in 2ch mode.

I think you meant the opposite: the HT receiver's pre-outs should go to the preamp's "HT bypass inputs"... The preamp then feeds the amp. It doesn't make sense to have the preamp feed the receiver...

BTW, I think you are doing a great job coming on this forum and answering all our questions, considering suggestions and overall putting up with us. We're not an easy bunch, you know...

I also really appreciate your interest in 2 channel integration. Thanks!

...

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ddgtr is offline  
post #291 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 09:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
ddgtr

No he is correct. the output of the 2ch preamp goes to a L&R analog input on the Processor.

When in Bypass it goes straight to the L & R front outputs of the processor.

For PC audio you can do the same thing going from the PC to a DAC and the DAC's L & R analog out's going to the L&R analog inputs on the processor.

In Direct mode you are feeding both the main and sub L&R inputs so you have the sub working in direct mode. Sweet!
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #292 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 09:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ddgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: In A Government Yard In SacTown
Posts: 1,830
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

I have customers explain that they still have 2ch system and HT system two systems in one room. I don't blame them. If I have invested over 5 grands in a high end tube preamp and solid state power amp, I would do the same. I don't remember the exact details. But this seems to be how it works. The 2ch system has a dedicated expensive power amplifier driving their front speakers full range. A 2ch preamp feeds HT receiver with bypass enabled and the HT front channel pre-out goes to dedicated power amp. This is in 2ch mode. In HT mode, however, the 2nd preamp is not active. The customer wants to share subwoofer in both systems. So that presents a problem. The solution I am thinking is to change those two High pass filter RCA output to two inputs for HT sub connection, as shown



The idea is this. All phase and xover control will be available to regular 2ch system line inputs. The front speakers in this case run full range. So customer should use low pass filter setting and cover/phase control to get the best tuning for their 2ch setup first. Once this is done, the next step is tune the HT system. Since HT menu has xover and delay time adjustment, it does not need xover adjustment and phase. So those two controls will be bypassed. Next the level control. Since there is a level control menu for subwoofer in HT, the customer will use that to set up the correct level for subwoofer in HT mode. This way, we can save space for one level control. Since we have two inputs and in order to increase adjustment range, one input has x1 gain and another has x4 gain. The customer can use x1 gain by default and if the gain is insufficient, then he can then plug in x4 input.

Let me know if this will work.



I'm not sure I completely understand, and for that I apologize in advance.

Could you please clarify this a bit?

Here is how my system is set up:

HT receiver's front preouts go to my preamp's HT bypass inputs. The preamp has an HT bypass selector which when enabled, surrenders volume control to the receiver and completely disables the preamp's volume control.

My fronts are set to large on the receiver.

In 2 channel mode, the receiver can be turned off.

From the preamp the signal path goes to an external crossover. It crosses at 70 Hz, sending to the sub and 2 ch amp.

Some of us 2 ch people do not have "true" full range fronts - enter a musical sub.

Given this setup, how would the mods you proposed above improve this configuration?

Thanks!!

...

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ddgtr is offline  
post #293 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 09:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ddgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: In A Government Yard In SacTown
Posts: 1,830
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Van Belkom View Post

ddgtr

No he is correct. the output of the 2ch preamp goes to a L&R analog input on the Processor.

When in Bypass it goes straight to the L & R front outputs of the processor.

For PC audio you can do the same thing going from the PC to a DAC and the DAC's L & R analog out's going to the L&R analog inputs on the processor.

In Direct mode you are feeding both the main and sub L&R inputs so you have the sub working in direct mode. Sweet!

Ed,

I'm afraid I still do not understand...

Why would I take the signal from my tube preamp and run it through my Onkyo receiver? The notion of "HT bypass" implies the preamp has a feature that lets you watch movies while making use of your 2 ch. system, and not the other way around. So I go through all the trouble to follow a pure signal path: Bryston DAC, tube preamp only to revert back to the receiver? The whole idea is to send it directly to the amp and on the fronts...

...

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ddgtr is offline  
post #294 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 09:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
ddgtr

Let me try a different way.

I am getting a Emotiva UMC-1 processor.

The outputs are 7.1. Front L&R, Center, Surround L&R, Rear L&R and Sub out.

In the Processors direct mode the analog front L&R inputs go directly to the L&R outputs bypassing any DSP processing.

Now I have full range output to my L&R front speakers but no sub output.

By using a "Y" adapter and connecting the L&R front outputs of the processor to both the main amp inputs going to the L&R front speakers and the L&R front inputs of the Sub amp using the Sub crossover and EQT to have only the low freq's go to the Sub's speaker, I can have the Sub work in direct mode of the processor.

When I use the processor in 7.1 mode the mono sub output of the processor goes to one of the Sub mono input jacks for either a 0Db or 12Db gain depending on what jack you use.

This way I can use the sub in both configurations and have the best analog sound as it is bypassed by the processor but still have the sub working in this configuration.

Does that make sense now?
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #295 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 10:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
ddgtr

The problem is that any DSP will affect the sound and for 2Ch you want to avoid that. By having the processor in bypass is just like it is not there. Instead of having a crossover you send the full range analog to both the sub and main front speakers. You can add a high pass filter to the main L&R front input of the amp so they do not get the LF signals. The Sub crossover and EQ will take care of the low end. Now you just reduced the electronics along the way by one by getting rid of the crossover.
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #296 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 10:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonH50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Monument CO
Posts: 6,084
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 262
While what Ed says makes perfect sense, most people with high-end preamps and amps are not going to pass that signal through anything else. For example, if and when I return my tube rack to its glory days, my $1k AVR will feed one of the inputs of my audio research pre and power amps, not the other way around. I suspect a lot of people will feel the same way. In that case, the AVR's L/R outputs go to the preamp, which them directly connects to the L/R power amp and speakers.

In Ed's case, I am guessing the emotiva represents the high end component and thus the last thing before the power amp and speakers. In both cases, if that is true, the best component has the most direct path to the speakers, yes?

However, I think the issue somewhat moot in that both require a way to provide HT and stereo inputs to the subwoofer, thus it seems to me Brian is on the right track. The catch to me is that if you connect your high-end preamp's outputs to the sub via a Y or second pair of outputs (like my old arc SP3), then use it in pass-through mode, it is (or may be) the same set of wires to the sub so it has no way of knowing if the signal is HT or not. You'd have to throw a switch on the sub to let it know. However, for those cases when two sets of outputs are used, e.g. one from the preamp and one from an AVR, then the HT input is a plus. I do not know how often that is the case. Of course, there are probably other outputs you could use for the HT mode, e.g. the tape loop outputs (assuming the pre has them).

Since IIRC the LFE signal requires a 10 dB boost if not compensated, then a 10 dB rather than 12 dB boost may be more appropriate(?) Acoustically 10 dB is also 2x louder, though of course 3.1623 is not a nice ratio like 4 (or 3.981 if you want to be picky about it).

My microcent - Don

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
DonH50 is online now  
post #297 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 10:22 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
ddgtr

In your setup you can just connect the crossover sub out to the sub input L&R .

There are many ways to configure this.

You can have a HT processor and connect the mono Sub out to the 0Db or12Db mono input.

Then you can have a seperate 2CH stereo preamp outputs going to a "Y" connector and feed the Sub L&R inputs that way.

You would have two seperate systems using the sub for the low end just not both at one time.

Hope this helps.
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #298 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 10:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
Ed Van Belkom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oshkosh,WI
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
DonH50

Yes you are also correct. My processor 7 channel ouputs go to my power amp.
The Sub output goes to the Sub input.

Bypass is straight thru so no sub output.

Bypassing the processor for 2Ch would be great if I had a seperate preamp but I do not.

The only thing in the way is the volume control so not pure high end but I can live with it.

I just go for the best bang for the buck and this sub is getting there. IMHO
Ed Van Belkom is offline  
post #299 of 16664 Old 03-13-2010, 10:54 PM
Member
 
sanjaygolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Is it possible to have both HT inputs and high level inputs/outputs? This way you can still utilize the high pass filters in the sub for those w/o full range speakers. I have both 2 ch and HT in the same room using the same sub but with no HT bypass in my preamp so both rigs act independently.
sanjaygolf is offline  
post #300 of 16664 Old 03-14-2010, 07:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ddgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: In A Government Yard In SacTown
Posts: 1,830
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Ok, it makes sense now. I was thinking in terms of a totally separate preamp. Thanks, Ed and Don!

Now, with the two sets of inputs on the sub and let's say two separate systems, a 2 ch and HT: would some sort of safety feature be implemented in the event of both systems accidentally being on at the same time?

I would be very interested because although my preamp has HT bypass, I would like to separate it completely from the HT. The reason is I don't want to burn my tubes watching movies... So if the sub can take two inputs, a "switch" like Don said above would be beneficial.

What do you all think?

Thanks!

...

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ddgtr is offline  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off