Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 1022 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #30631 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
I would just use the recommendations in the installation guide provided with the sub. Brian knows these subs better than anyone else, because he designed them.

I would not overthink this... and that's coming from someone who usually overthinks such things, lol.
Good advice.

I have the one pager installation guide for the pair of L22 subs. It clearly says:

Quote:
We recommend the falling settings when using a Room EQ program:

Extension: Low-HT

RoomEQ has the capability to change the frequency response in the room. EQ can interfere with the damping settings as damping related to the time domain performance. As a result, it is recommend to set up EQ with the maximum extension. After EQ has been set up, one can then adjust the bass extension for the best compromise between output and sound quality.
This is still a little confusing to me. The first step is clear -- use Low-HT -- during the audio calibration/EQ step.

That said, Low-HT is NOT the setting with the lowest extension. According to the same setup sheet, "Low Music setting has the lowest extension".

And "Low Music" has low end extension that is far more similar to my other two subs, a pair of the F15HP.

And I am not output starved at all.

So if I follow the instructions for setting up the L22 subs, I should run EQ when they are in the Low-HT mode and THEN switch them to the Low-Music mode (even though at one point the instructions also say to use the lowest extension mode when running the EQ), right?

----

The setup on the arguably more complex (because it has more options) F15HP is actually simpler:

Quote:
Rumble filter: OFF
Extension filter: 14 Hz
Damping: low
So I will start with low damping for the EQ process and then switch to high damping since I am NOT output starved and appreciate the increased accuracy.

----

I'm 99% sure that, like a typical idiot, I didn't follow either of these steps when setting things up the first time. I simply chose the most extension and highest damping because I knew that is where I wanted to end up! Doh.

Thanks for reminding me to RTFM. Sometimes it's the simple things....
For F15HP, 14 low is flattest and you don't want Audyssey to flatten rumble filter, so it is left off... remember flattest doesn't mean deepest extension, just flatter down to f3 point, anechoic or even in room

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post #30632 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
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Originally Posted by Freddy Ford View Post
This is exactly what Audyssey told me a few years ago when I inquired about how the EQ works. I was told my XT32 will cut peaks only, no boosting to smooth things out. My local dealer also said the same, but I wanted to confirm.
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Audyssey, at least the old XT I had, would not boost dips, only cut peaks, but the AVR would boost the overall gain at the end to (re)set the reference level. I do not remember what YPAO and MCACC did; I have a vague memory the MCACC would also only cut using their PEQ (standing wave EQ), not sure about their graphic EQ. No idea on YPAO, never measured it (too many years ago). Be careful when boosting the bass (or anything else); remember +3 dB doubles the power, +6 dB quadruples it, and +10 dB requires ten times the power.
There has always been a lot of misinformation about Audyssey floating around, and this is a good example. Audyssey both boosts and cuts in an effort to achieve a flat frequency response. Different versions of Audyssey have different numbers of control points, which in turn affect the extent to which boosts and cuts can be performed on a macro or micro level with respect to individual frequencies.

But, in all versions of Audyssey, the software can cut peaks by up to 20db, but can only boost dips by up to 9db. That information comes straight from Audyssey, and from its creator Chris Kyriakis. That is true for all channels, but is especially pertinent to the .1 (subwoofer) channel.

Another misconception is that Audyssey gets crossovers wrong, when it sets speakers to Large, or when it sets crossovers below 80Hz. Audyssey doesn't actually set any crossovers at all. It simply reports the measured F3 point for each channel to the AVR, which then sets the channel as Large, or as Small with a crossover, based on its own internal programming. And, that programming can vary a bit from company to company. All that initial setting is intended to do is to inform the user of the capabilities of his audio system.

The final crossover settings will depend on any number of factors, including personal preference. Recommended Audyssey protocol has always been to set channels at a nominal 80Hz (or higher, depending on the initial AVR setting). But, there are two different and completely independent software programs involved in setting crossovers, and that is at the insistence of the AVR makers.

Getting back to the issue of where to set the damping control (also called room gain compensation) I would reiterate Mark Seaton's advice to start at about the mid-point, prior to running Audyssey. And then, to experiment from there. Any method selected will be a compromise, with some potential advantages and disadvantages. But, Mark has worked with Audyssey systems in the installation of many subwoofers, and believes that is the most flexible initial setting to use in order to preserve your options.

One final point that I think is worth making is that there is nothing inherently wrong with using the damping factor, or a miniDSP, or Audyssey, to boost below 20Hz. As was previously pointed out, very low frequency boosts do consume more amplifier power. But, as with any boosts, it is very much a question of individual system headroom. Where a large room provides relatively little room gain, or where there is a relatively shallow dip at 20Hz or lower, some boost may be desirable, assuming that the subwoofers have enough headroom to accommodate that boost.

Audyssey specifically limits the amount of boost that it can add (to a maximum of 9db) in an attempt to keep from over-driving a subwoofer. And, Audyssey will set no control points (and consequently make no boosts) below the measured F3 roll-off point (where the SPL is consistently rolling-off by 3db, and is not just momentarily dipping) of the combined subs in an audio system. But, whether or not a specific boost may be desirable at a specific frequency above that F3 point is for individual determination on a trial-and-error basis. If measurements, port chuffing, or anything else, indicates that too much stress is being placed on the subwoofers in a system, the owner can always back off the damping control, or the sub gain, in order to compensate.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for confirming Audyssey boosts, though didn't realize it was up to +9dB
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post #30633 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:16 AM
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In a nutshell, you don't want Audyssey to flatten frequency response in high or mid damping because then it would be more like low damping. Higher damping is achieved with shallower roll off than low damping by starting the roll off higher in the frequency range and down to a deeper extension than low damping.

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post #30634 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
You may have noticed that Audyssey gets the crossover frequency and large/small detected wrong for speakers all the time.
I've read from numerous places including direct from Audyssey that Audyssey is not selecting large/small, it's the manufacturer of the device (ex AVR) that is selecting this based on the results from Audyssey, and overriding speaker size that Audyssey would have selected.

EDIT: Mike stated this already on the previous page.

In any case, thanks for the tip about setting damping to low. I'll need to re-run the sweeps.
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post #30635 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:53 AM
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I think that some of the misinformation/confusion stems from no boost is applied below the roll-off f3 point that Audyssey determines, but can boost above that to a certain degree as mentioned. When I contacted Audyssey they did not distinguish that, nor did my dealer.
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post #30636 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post
In a nutshell, you don't want Audyssey to flatten frequency response in high or mid damping because then it would be more like low damping. Higher damping is achieved with shallower roll off than low damping by starting the roll off higher in the frequency range and down to a deeper extension than low damping.
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I've read from numerous places including direct from Audyssey that Audyssey is not selecting large/small, it's the manufacturer of the device (ex AVR) that is selecting this based on the results from Audyssey, and overriding speaker size that Audyssey would have selected.

EDIT: Mike stated this already on the previous page.

In any case, thanks for the tip about setting damping to low. I'll need to re-run the sweeps.
I definitely wouldn't start with high damping, before running Audyssey, if I expected to want to add any post-calibration boost to the very low frequencies. But, as noted in Post 30618, on the previous page, you might still want to have some degree of EQ performed <35Hz before making adjustments to your damping control. If so, then starting with your damping control at about the mid-point may actually be the best overall compromise.

I think that everybody should be prepared to experiment in order to get the best results. And, there is nothing at all wrong with doing more than one Audyssey calibration to find out what works best for your specific system in your specific room. But, I would not completely neglect Mark Seaton's advice to start at about the mid-point prior to running Audyssey. I have heard that same advice from some other subwoofer makers, including Jeff Permanian of JTR. I really think that it's one of those YMMV issues where different people in different rooms may get different results.

Regards,
Mike
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post #30637 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I definitely wouldn't start with high damping, before running Audyssey, if I expected to want to add any post-calibration boost to the very low frequencies. But, as noted in Post 30618, on the previous page, you might still want to have some degree of EQ performed <35Hz before making adjustments to your damping control. If so, then starting with your damping control at about the mid-point may actually be the best overall compromise.

I think that everybody should be prepared to experiment in order to get the best results. And, there is nothing at all wrong with doing more than one Audyssey calibration to find out what works best for your specific system in your specific room. But, I would not completely neglect Mark Seaton's advice to start at about the mid-point prior to running Audyssey. I have heard that same advice from some other subwoofer makers, including Jeff Permanian of JTR. I really think that it's one of those YMMV issues where different people in different rooms may get different results.

Regards,
Mike
I would probably do the following:

Start with recommendations in installation guide and run auto setup.

Measure in REW with auto EQ on and off.

If something is clearly wrong, then try mid (or even high) damping and rerun auto setup.

Remeasure in REW to confirm all is well (or as well as you can get it unless you plan on using/adding MiniDSP or the like for additional/manual control of sub PEQ).


(I would imagine Brian's advice would work 99% of the time. I know for my LV12R I have to EQ in low damping/ext for proper results. Flattening mid or high damping/ext on my sub in my setup did not sound right... it added ringing to the low end of mid/high.)

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post #30638 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I definitely wouldn't start with high damping, before running Audyssey, if I expected to want to add any post-calibration boost to the very low frequencies. But, as noted in Post 30618, on the previous page, you might still want to have some degree of EQ performed <35Hz before making adjustments to your damping control. If so, then starting with your damping control at about the mid-point may actually be the best overall compromise.

Regards,
Mike
For the F15HP, do you recommend starting with the bass extension set to 14 along with damping set to mid or setting the extension to the middle setting (20) too?
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post #30639 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 11:08 AM
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I found in my space and positions of subs that high damping gave me the best rew with flattest/smoothest fr. low damping gave me big humps and some nulls...high damping little humps and no nulls...weird but I will take it...no idea on science behind it, just trial and error. my ears actually liked low, but graphs were ugly so went against my ears and with the rew graphs. no complaints.
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post #30640 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 11:42 AM
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@mthomas47

Well, phooey, I was going to go home tonight and dig up my Audyssey white paper to prove I knew what I was talking about instead of being the dispenser of FUD Mike would imply... I got lucky and had a copy I could access at work (on lunch break) and sure enough it matched my memory. BUT, and a big one, the paper is not a white paper from Audyssey, but a white paper from another site by a guy describing how he thought it worked. Bah. I'm no better than my reference.

Sorry Mike, you are correct, and thank you for the information!

BTW, Dirac Live also limits the boost, to 10 dB I think (have emails from their tech support but not with me), and can provide essentially "infinite" cut. Pioneer's PEQ, what they call their standing wave filters, only cut; I do not know about the main EQ (probably goes both ways).
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post #30641 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gregcss View Post
For the F15HP, do you recommend starting with the bass extension set to 14 along with damping set to mid or setting the extension to the middle setting (20) too?
I think I would set the bass extension as low as I planned to use it. Tori's example of the peaks and dips in his FR with low damping may be a good example of what Mark is talking about. I was trying to think of a good way to explain all of this, and the example which follows will only pertain to a room EQ system, such as Audyssey, which EQ's below 30 Hz.

Let's arbitrarily say that someone has an in-room response that rolls-off by 3db below about 14Hz. The damping factor is essentially a volume control for the <30Hz frequencies. High damping allows the full capabilities of the sub, for those frequencies. Low damping provides the maximum attenuation of those <30Hz frequencies. And, it's a great adjustment to have because some rooms might get more room gain <30Hz than some people want, or vice versa. Or some people might just like a lot of very low bass. I do!

Now, let's say that with that <14Hz roll-off, you have a small dip of about 3 or 4db centered at about 20Hz, and a peak of about 5db centered at about 25Hz. UnEQed, the 25Hz peak, which is about 8db louder than the 20Hz dip will completely overpower the ultra low frequencies, making them harder to hear. And, the 25Hz peak may be obnoxiously loud on its own and stand out even from the 30Hz and 35Hz content. (We typically notice peaks even more than we do dips in FR.)

If you set your damping factor as high as it will go, Audyssey will try to flatten out the entire frequency response from 14Hz to about 22KHz. So, in theory, both the dip at 20Hz and the peak at 25Hz will be eliminated. But now, if you find that you want to lift those <30Hz frequencies, you have no way to do it, because your damping control is already set as high as it will go. You can lift all of the subwoofer frequencies, by increasing your gain, but you can't selectively concentrate more in the <30hz region, if you want to.

Looking at the opposite scenario, let's say you start with your damping control on low. Now your bass will be rolling-off much higher than 14Hz , because you have deliberately attenuated the low frequencies, prior to running Audyssey. All of the <30Hz frequencies will be playing relatively much lower in volume. So, in that scenario, Audyssey may not be able to affect the peak at 25Hz at all (much less the dip at 20Hz), because your entire FR is rolling-off early. After Audyssey has run, you can definitely lift the <30Hz frequencies as much as you want to, but you will still be preserving the relative peak at 25Hz and the relative dip at 20Hz. And, you may not like the way that sounds. I believe that is what Tori was experiencing.

Using the mid-point of the damping control is a compromise. You are not achieving the maximum amount of EQ that Audyssey is capable of performing, but you are preserving your ability to increase your very low bass if you want to. And, at a minimum, Audyssey will still be able to pull down large peaks, <30Hz because they will be standing out fairly sharply relative to the measured F3 point. As noted, most people may think of the importance of pulling up dips, and that can be very important. But, random peaks in our FR can be particularly noticeable and particularly obnoxious.

So, it is a situation that may require compromise, as many things do. But, depending on the specific system and specific room, if I had a method of EQing below 30Hz, I would probably prefer to give it a chance to operate by setting a mid-point damping control. Then, depending on how I liked my results, after whatever post-calibration adjustments I wanted to make, I might try something higher or lower than that mid-point setting.

Regards,
Mike
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post #30642 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
@mthomas47

Well, phooey, I was going to go home tonight and dig up my Audyssey white paper to prove I knew what I was talking about instead of being the dispenser of FUD Mike would imply... I got lucky and had a copy I could access at work (on lunch break) and sure enough it matched my memory. BUT, and a big one, the paper is not a white paper from Audyssey, but a white paper from another site by a guy describing how he thought it worked. Bah. I'm no better than my reference.

Sorry Mike, you are correct, and thank you for the information!

BTW, Dirac Live also limits the boost, to 10 dB I think (have emails from their tech support but not with me), and can provide essentially "infinite" cut. Pioneer's PEQ, what they call their standing wave filters, only cut; I do not know about the main EQ (probably goes both ways).
You are very welcome, Don! We are all the dispensers of FUD at times, but you are one of the last people I would ever think of in that context.

Regards,
Mike
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post #30643 of 30660 Old 09-13-2017, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcss View Post
For the F15HP, do you recommend starting with the bass extension set to 14 along with damping set to mid or setting the extension to the middle setting (20) too?
I think I would set the bass extension as low as I planned to use it. Tori's example of the peaks and dips in his FR with low damping may be a good example of what Mark is talking about. I was trying to think of a good way to explain all of this, and the example which follows will only pertain to a room EQ system, such as Audyssey, which EQ's below 30 Hz.

Let's arbitrarily say that someone has an in-room response that rolls-off by 3db below about 14Hz. The damping factor is essentially a volume control for the &lt;30Hz frequencies. High damping allows the full capabilities of the sub, for those frequencies. Low damping provides the maximum attenuation of those &lt;30Hz frequencies. And, it's a great adjustment to have because some rooms might get more room gain &lt;30Hz than some people want, or vice versa. Or some people might just like a lot of very low bass. I do!

Now, let's say that with that &lt;14Hz roll-off, you have a small dip of about 3 or 4db centered at about 20Hz, and a peak of about 5db centered at about 25Hz. UnEQed, the 25Hz peak, which is about 8db louder than the 20Hz dip will completely overpower the ultra low frequencies, making them harder to hear. And, the 25Hz peak may be obnoxiously loud on its own and stand out even from the 30Hz and 35Hz content. (We typically notice peaks even more than we do dips in FR.)

If you set your damping factor as high as it will go, Audyssey will try to flatten out the entire frequency response from 14Hz to about 22KHz. So, in theory, both the dip at 20Hz and the peak at 25Hz will be eliminated. But now, if you find that you want to lift those &lt;30Hz frequencies, you have no way to do it, because your damping control is already set as high as it will go. You can lift all of the subwoofer frequencies, by increasing your gain, but you can't selectively concentrate more in the &lt;30hz region, if you want to.

Looking at the opposite scenario, let's say you start with your damping control on low. Now your bass will be rolling-off much higher than 14Hz , because you have deliberately attenuated the low frequencies, prior to running Audyssey. All of the &lt;30Hz frequencies will be playing relatively much lower in volume. So, in that scenario, Audyssey may not be able to affect the peak at 25Hz at all (much less the dip at 20Hz), because your entire FR is rolling-off early. After Audyssey has run, you can definitely lift the &lt;30Hz frequencies as much as you want to, but you will still be preserving the relative peak at 25Hz and the relative dip at 20Hz. And, you may not like the way that sounds. I believe that is what Tori was experiencing.

Using the mid-point of the damping control is a compromise. You are not achieving the maximum amount of EQ that Audyssey is capable of performing, but you are preserving your ability to increase your very low bass if you want to. And, at a minimum, Audyssey will still be able to pull down large peaks, &lt;30Hz because they will be standing out fairly sharply relative to the measured F3 point. As noted, most people may think of the importance of pulling up dips, and that can be very important. But, random peaks in our FR can be particularly noticeable and particularly obnoxious.

So, it is a situation that may require compromise, as many things do. But, depending on the specific system and specific room, if I had a method of EQing below 30Hz, I would probably prefer to give it a chance to operate by setting a mid-point damping control. Then, depending on how I liked my results, after whatever post-calibration adjustments I wanted to make, I might try something higher or lower than that mid-point setting.

Regards,
Mike
Great post... I do think checking things in REW is a good way to eliminate any doubt about how your sub(s) interact with your room (and each other) at your mlp. I do think following the manufacturers recommendations is a solid starting point. If that results in peaks or dips being ignored or prevents a desired boost of ulf, then one can proceed from there as needed.

In my case, YPAO on even my 2070 does nothing beyond what my MiniDSP 2x4 unbalanced is already doing to my sub.

I have my LV12R EQ'd in low bass extension/damping (my sub combines low extension and low damping/high extension and high damping). I EQ it flat with cut only filters. So, only cut peaks and leave dips alone. This works extremely well for me. I have tried the same EQ in mid or high and the result is it flattens what should actually be a smooth roll off. That adds ringing as the area below the f3 point drops sharply. I don't get much room gain in terms of ulf boost by the room, so my frequency response below 20Hz looks a lot like the anechoic response posted on the website.

Now the sealed L12/L22 combines deepest extension with high damping in the low music setting. This has a very shallow roll off from the midbass frequencies into the infrasonic region. You wouldn't want to flatten this out into the infrasonic region because then there would be no roll off which is what makes it high damping in the first place.

However, because the anechoic response and the in room response can be very different due to room gain and a sealed sub's shallower (than ported) roll off under f3 point, it's possible what is best for the anechoic response *may* not align exactly with the actual measured response in room at mlp.

Yet the low ht mode on these L series sealed subs is recommended during EQ because it is flatter to the f3 point than low music and EQ typically flattens whatever it measures, at least to f3 point.

Now it's possible Audyssey could preserve the roll off in low music setting instead of making it ruler flat, which is why verifying with REW is worth the effort if possible.
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post #30644 of 30660 Old 09-14-2017, 05:54 AM
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Turns out my damping was already set to Mid and extension at 14, meaning this was the setting when running audyssey. I changed damping to high and will test that out with movies and/or sub test tracks. I wish I didnt sell my CS calibrated UMIK so I can try REW. I've only installed REW and not used it, do I just need a mic, laptop, and signal cable (USB, mini to RCA, etc) from laptop to AVR?

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post #30645 of 30660 Old 09-14-2017, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by gregcss View Post
Turns out my damping was already set to Mid and extension at 14, meaning this was the setting when running audyssey. I changed damping to high and will test that out with movies and/or sub test tracks. I wish I didnt sell my CS calibrated UMIK so I can try REW. I've only installed REW and not used it, do I just need a mic, laptop, and signal cable (USB, mini to RCA, etc) from laptop to AVR?
Yup. You can buy a new mic from CSL, or buy one from miniDSP for a little less that is probably good enough. You'll probably want to install ASIO drivers (help in the REW guides) and use an HDMI cable to the AVR.

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post #30646 of 30660 Old 09-14-2017, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by gregcss View Post
Turns out my damping was already set to Mid and extension at 14, meaning this was the setting when running audyssey. I changed damping to high and will test that out with movies and/or sub test tracks. I wish I didnt sell my CS calibrated UMIK so I can try REW. I've only installed REW and not used it, do I just need a mic, laptop, and signal cable (USB, mini to RCA, etc) from laptop to AVR?
You will need a laptop that is capable of 7.1 output over HDMI, an HDMI cable long enough to reach from the laptop to your AVR, and a USB extension cable if the 6' cable that comes with the UMIK isn't long enough to reach your laptop (it is usually plenty for most folks). A boom mic stand is also pretty much required equipment.

If you haven't already, read and follow Austin Jerry's awesome REW guide linked in my sig and you can't go wrong.
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post #30647 of 30660 Old 09-14-2017, 04:42 PM
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I downloaded a few LF test tones from www.wavtones.com and apparently all at the same level. I turned off Audyssey on my AVR, used LFE in on the F15HP with PEQ off, Rumble off, Damping Hi, and Extension 14. The option for AVR is enabled.

I put the meter about 1 foot from the front of the sub and here are the results:

30hz 76db
25hz 70db
20hz 66db
18hz 55db
14hz 53db

In a perfect room, should I expect similar output across these frequencies maybe with a slight taper towards 14hz? This is a 23db drop between 30hz and 14hz. I wonder if 1) my room is causing nulls, and/or 2) my [new] AVR is doing something here. I do not have a baseline to compare against.
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post #30648 of 30660 Old 09-14-2017, 04:46 PM
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what mic you using? most mics arent accurate at low frequencies.

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post #30649 of 30660 Old 09-14-2017, 04:54 PM
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what mic you using? most mics arent accurate at low frequencies.
Radio Shack digital sound level meter. Even using my ears there is a huge drop - 30hz is decent, 25 not bad, 20 a tiny sound, and 18/14 i dont hear you. I should also note that the background noise (quiet room) measured 43db.
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well maybe try some different test tones. I really dont have an answer for ya.

https://www.focal.com/en/cd-focal-tools
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post #30651 of 30660 Old 09-14-2017, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcss View Post
I downloaded a few LF test tones from www.wavtones.com and apparently all at the same level. I turned off Audyssey on my AVR, used LFE in on the F15HP with PEQ off, Rumble off, Damping Hi, and Extension 14. The option for AVR is enabled.

I put the meter about 1 foot from the front of the sub and here are the results:

30hz 76db
25hz 70db
20hz 66db
18hz 55db
14hz 53db

In a perfect room, should I expect similar output across these frequencies maybe with a slight taper towards 14hz? This is a 23db drop between 30hz and 14hz. I wonder if 1) my room is causing nulls, and/or 2) my [new] AVR is doing something here. I do not have a baseline to compare against.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcss View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
what mic you using? most mics arent accurate at low frequencies.
Radio Shack digital sound level meter. Even using my ears there is a huge drop - 30hz is decent, 25 not bad, 20 a tiny sound, and 18/14 i dont hear you. I should also note that the background noise (quiet room) measured 43db.
I would get a UMIK-1 calibrated usb mic and measure in REW at the main listening position.

Using an SPL meter for ulf is not going to work. Also, measure where your ears usually go, not 1ft in front of sub if you want to see how the room affects the frequency response.

Additionally, assuming you have a flat in room response from 30Hz to 14Hz (no major peaks or dips), it is normal for it to become less audible as the frequency drops, especially under 20Hz which is not supposed to be audible in the traditional sense. Especially at the spl you are playing these test tones at. I would measure around 85dB to 90dB for better results and with usb mic and REW at MLP.
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Originally Posted by gregcss View Post
Radio Shack digital sound level meter. Even using my ears there is a huge drop - 30hz is decent, 25 not bad, 20 a tiny sound, and 18/14 i dont hear you. I should also note that the background noise (quiet room) measured 43db.
That meter, like most SPL meters, offers only C weighting and that rolls off below 30 Hz. There are compensation tables on the 'net. See e.g. https://www.noisemeters.com/help/faq...-weighting.asp or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting for a description of various weighting curves.

You can do a rough estimate by adding the rolloff in the curve to what your meter tells you. A better solution is a UMIK-1 calibrated to 5 Hz by CSL for about $100 plus REW (free download). My Earthworks measurement mic is also calibrated to 5 Hz but is about 10x the cost. It has much greater dynamic range and lower distortion but that is not needed for room measurements.

HTH - Don
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post #30653 of 30660 Old 09-14-2017, 07:33 PM
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Thanks for the input. I'd gladly buy another CS calibrated UMIK, but I dont have a laptop with HDMI output. I used the previous UMIK with a pre/pro that I sold along with the mic. I'll look through the REW guides...

Edit: I'll also try the focal test tones torii provided.

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post #30654 of 30660 Old 09-15-2017, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcss View Post
I downloaded a few LF test tones from www.wavtones.com and apparently all at the same level. I turned off Audyssey on my AVR, used LFE in on the F15HP with PEQ off, Rumble off, Damping Hi, and Extension 14. The option for AVR is enabled.

I put the meter about 1 foot from the front of the sub and here are the results:

30hz 76db
25hz 70db
20hz 66db
18hz 55db
14hz 53db

In a perfect room, should I expect similar output across these frequencies maybe with a slight taper towards 14hz? This is a 23db drop between 30hz and 14hz. I wonder if 1) my room is causing nulls, and/or 2) my [new] AVR is doing something here. I do not have a baseline to compare against.
If you use the correction table for that SPL meter, you're not as bad off as you think. Your only down about 9-10dB at 14hz (rough guestimate).

http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/SPL-corrections.htm
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post #30655 of 30660 Old 09-15-2017, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
If you use the correction table for that SPL meter, you're not as bad off as you think. Your only down about 9-10dB at 14hz (rough guestimate).

http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/SPL-corrections.htm
I ran another test this morning from the listening position and from 30hz to 14hz w/o Audyssey there was only a 9db drop, with Audyssey 7db. This was at low volume though. I'd like to test again at high volume. My main purpose here is to test my new AVR (Marantz SR6012) with the sub to see if there is a roll off at 20hz.
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I performed the same test this afternoon, except seated at the listening position. I'll use the 30hz tone as my baseline to compare against the rat shack meter corrections. As such I would expect to see -10/11db between 30hz and 14hz without correction, and sure enough the results show that. Damping was set to mid when i ran audyssey and could be the explanation as to why the output measures a 3db increase at 14hz for the tests with Audyssey.

Amp settings
LFE in on the F15HP
PEQ off
Rumble off
Damping Hi
Extension 14

Without Audyssey
30hz 65db
25hz 65db
20hz 55db
18hz 54db
14hz 53db

With Audyssey
30hz 56db
25hz 54db
20hz 49db
18hz 48db
14hz 51db

With Audyssey +2 on amp volume knob
30hz 66db
25hz 64db
20hz 53db
18hz 53db
14hz 56db
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post #30657 of 30660 Old 09-15-2017, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregcss View Post
Thanks for the input. I'd gladly buy another CS calibrated UMIK, but I dont have a laptop with HDMI output. I used the previous UMIK with a pre/pro that I sold along with the mic. I'll look through the REW guides...

Edit: I'll also try the focal test tones torii provided.
For various reasons I have yet to get HDMI working from my laptop so I use the analog outputs. I did the same with my previous notebook and a desktop. I tested the outputs using loopback cables and direct into a spectrum analyzer. They seem to be (more than) good enough for room measurements. I would rather do that than trying to do frequency sweeps and other measurements with an SPL meter. Someday I'll get HDMI working and be able to do more, but for now I am content to listen to what I've got. When I have time, which is rare lately.

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post #30658 of 30660 Old 09-17-2017, 07:16 AM
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So, I decided to unhook the MiniDSP 2x4 from the signal chain and just use a single RCA cable from AVR to sub LFE input. I used the manual PEQ on the Yamaha 2070 and so far things seem to be good.

Initially, I used an unsmoothed measurement to generate PEQ filters in REW but it seemed not to line up as expected since the frequency and Q increments are much more granular on the Yamaha. I remembered that YPAO works with 1/3 octave resolution so I just did that and it worked a lot better. Perhaps I could try 1/6 octave smoothing next time, but I'm just going to do something listening right now for subjective impressions.

So far, sounds fine with Spotify Premium and Daredevil on Netflix. Though I will be watching the new Mummy movie later.
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post #30659 of 30660 Old 09-17-2017, 12:57 PM
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Hi,

I'm having trouble deciding between a pair of L12 vs a pair of LV12R for a small dedicated theater. It's ~1500 cu ft closed space. The usage is about 50/50 music + movies. The placement is constrained to the 2 rear corners of the room, and I'll be using audyssey xt32. I don't usually listen all that loud - ~-20 to -10 on my AVR - but sometimes I'll turn it up quite a bit for bassy electronic music.

From what I've read, the L12 will give me deeper extension due to room gain from my small room... but I really have no idea how subjectively that'll compare with the higher output the lv12r has at 20hz wrt movie watching and music such as Infected Mushroom, if you're familiar with them.

Thanks in advance for your help.
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post #30660 of 30660 Old 09-17-2017, 02:35 PM
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With a small room like that I would get the L12's for their smaller size and extra extension. Really doubt you'll exceed the output capabilities of a pair of either in that room. One question would be, if you can afford a pair of LV12R's, can you afford a pair of L22's (assuming they would fit your space)? Don't forget that by buying two you get an immediate 10% discount.

p.s. I also suggest emailing or calling Rythmik (Brian and/or Enrico) directly for their advice. They will discuss your needs and suggest a solution.

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