Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 104 - AVS Forum
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post #3091 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

It doesn't matter that you only use half the area. Low frequencies only know physical boundries like walls. For someone that has been in the hobby for decades, I'm surprised you didn't know that.

This really isn't as complicated as you are making it. If you are worried about not having enough bass, then get the biggest badest sub you can afford.

Read the entire first sentence in my post that you quoted again(not just the first six words),then say you're sorry.
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post #3092 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post

Read the entire first sentence in my post that you quoted again(not just the first six words),then say you're sorry.

That's what I get for posting after I've been awake for only 30 minutes. You're right. I'm sorry.

I still stand by my statement that you are making it harder than it needs to be.

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post #3093 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

That's what I get for posting after I've been awake for only 30 minutes. You're right. I'm sorry.

I still stand by my statement that you are making it harder than it needs to be.

No problem,apology accepted. Buying speakers without hearing them ain't easy. As I said,if I could just hear them the decision could be made in minutes. Not only do we all have different preferences,but we all don't hear the same,so a recommendation must be taken with that in mind. You may love a speaker or sub,but the next guy may hate it. Who's opinion is right? With out being able to audition,the next best thing might be a consensus on forums like this,but it's a consensus of opinions(some from people who haven't even heard the sub).The "biggest,badest" sub isn't necessarily the cleanest,most articulate or best sounding sub. Brian's opinion is based on experience,knowledge and extensive listening. I value that. The reason that there are so many speakers and subwoofers out there is so we all can have speakers and subs we love.
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post #3094 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post

As I said,if I could just hear them the decision could be made in minutes. ... With out being able to audition ...

So why don't you audition the subs?
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post #3095 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

So why don't you audition the subs?

Because it's a long freakin' way from where I live to Rythmik. If you know how I can hear a F15,F15HP and a FV15 anywhere near my house,please enlighten me.
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post #3096 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post

...2. Room is somewhat small-10x28,total vol. 2700cu ft.(listening level moderate to loud,but not"reference")...

...When I asked for a recommendation of F15,F15hp or FV15, Brian said FV15(which I'll probably go with-he's heard them all extensively).
Isn't that contrary to the above? Will the confusion ever end? The sad part is, that if I could hear them the decision could be made in minutes.

Don't know how much this will help but...
my space is nearly the same as yours... varying width 10'-13' X 26' in length and sealed (however total volume is only ~2300cu-ft). I have two F12's (with 300 watt amps), currently cross-over ~40Hz... they are NOT co-located. With the gains on both set to 9 o'clock, Audyssey sets the calibration level to -7.5dBs (though lately I've increased it manually to -4.5dB). I can crank the receiver up to 80db without the subs breaking a sweat but that's really too loud to even listen to... as our tolerance limit is more like around 75dBs. Hopefully that might give you some reference as to how capable an F15 could be in your space.

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post #3097 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post

Because it's a long freakin' way from where I live to Rythmik. If you know how I can hear a F15,F15HP and a FV15 anywhere near my house,please enlighten me.

Where do you live?

I think the thing this comes down to, for you, is how much output you need. from what I hear the ported versions of the Rythmik are a little less accurate than the sealed versions. BUT, these are extremely accurate subs. I would bet dollars to doughnut that you would be hard pressed to find a ported sub that matches the accuracy. They have very little overhang. I had never heard anything like it until I plugged in my F15.

It really is an output issuse and how loud you like to listen issue. If you have the money, go big. My room is larger than yours and the F15 does great for the listening position. I will be adding a second in the future so I can fill the entire room and smooth out the response. If I were you I would go F25, F15HP, or FV15HP. Good luck.

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post #3098 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Current H550 and H600 are all PEQ. There are about 10 H600PEQ2 that I sold in US. The main difference between PEQ2 and PEQ as H550 and H600 is the LFE low pass filter setting on the plate amp. But for vented sub, I would recommend AVR/12 to tame port resonance at 200hz.

I was just rereading the Audioholics review where they say Rythmik went to PEQ2 for the H600 amp after they tested it, allowing the limiter to be defeated. Like I've said I am new to all of this and I was just trying to clear it up for myself.

Okay so the H600 and H550 are PEQ not PEQ2...check. So is the limiter always on then with those amps? Thanks.
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post #3099 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

I was just rereading the Audioholics review where they say Rythmik went to PEQ2 for the H600 amp after they tested it, allowing the limiter to be defeated. Like I've said I am new to all of this and I was just trying to clear it up for myself.

Okay so the H600 and H550 are PEQ not PEQ2...check. So is the limiter always on then with those amps? Thanks.

mphfrom77,

Let me clarify this point:

ONLY in H550PEQ and H600PEQ amps both functions are available, I mean Auto-ON and Limiter functions.

POWER switch have three positions: ON, AUTO and OFF

1.- ON: Subwoofer always (ON), Limiter (OFF)

2.- AUTO: Auto-ON (ON), Limiter (ON)

3.- OFF: All system (OFF)

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post #3100 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 12:50 PM
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Enrico or Brian,

When will the F25 be available again? Does it come with a grill cover? Have you checked if FedEx ships more economically as you've hinted?
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post #3101 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jheyau View Post

Enrico or Brian,

When will the F25 be available again? Does it come with a grill cover? Have you checked if FedEx ships more economically as you've hinted?

F25 will be available in two months. It comes with grill cover as all ours finished models. Let me ask Brian about FedEx.

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post #3102 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post

Because it's a long freakin' way from where I live to Rythmik. If you know how I can hear a F15,F15HP and a FV15 anywhere near my house,please enlighten me.

Ascend 30 day guarantee. You could chat up Enrico too.

It's just a matter of planning, logistics and a moderate investment of time and money.
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post #3103 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post
Ascend 30 day guarantee. You could chat up Enrico too.

It's just a matter of planning, logistics and a moderate investment of time and money.
Somehow buying all three and paying hundreds of dollars in return shipping for the two I'd return doesn't seem like a good deal(for me or Rythmik). Please tell me how planning,logistics and a moderate investment will help.
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post #3104 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post
Where do you live?

I think the thing this comes down to, for you, is how much output you need. from what I hear the ported versions of the Rythmik are a little less accurate than the sealed versions. BUT, these are extremely accurate subs. I would bet dollars to doughnut that you would be hard pressed to find a ported sub that matches the accuracy. They have very little overhang. I had never heard anything like it until I plugged in my F15.

It really is an output issuse and how loud you like to listen issue. If you have the money, go big. My room is larger than yours and the F15 does great for the listening position. I will be adding a second in the future so I can fill the entire room and smooth out the response. If I were you I would go F25, F15HP, or FV15HP. Good luck.
I live on the west coast of Florida(as it says to the left when I post). Have you heard a FV15? Or is your opinion based on"from what I hear"? Brian says the ported FV15 is so close to the F15 in terms of accuracy that you'd have to listen to them side by side to hear the difference. There is no possibility of adding a second sub later. It's not really an output issue(which can largely be determined from the specs), it's a sound quality issue(which can't). Without being able to do side by side comparisons,can you really say the F15 sounds better in your room than a F15HP or a FV15? That's why Brian's opinion is valued,he has heard them all side by side. You and me,we're just making (what we think are educated) guesses.
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post #3105 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post
I live on the west coast of Florida(as it says to the left when I post). Have you heard a FV15? Or is your opinion based on"from what I hear"? Brian says the ported FV15 is so close to the F15 in terms of accuracy that you'd have to listen to them side by side to hear the difference. There is no possibility of adding a second sub later. It's not really an output issue(which can largely be determined from the specs), it's a sound quality issue(which can't). Without being able to do side by side comparisons,can you really say the F15 sounds better in your room than a F15HP or a FV15? That's why Brian's opinion is valued,he has heard them all side by side. You and me,we're just making (what we think are educated) guesses.
The west coast of Florida isn't that far from Texas. You don't live in Australia, so it's not like you are out of country. Last I checked, UPS delivers to Florida. I believe freight is pretty much a flat rate.... I think.

I do agree that it is expensive to return ship.

I would watch your tone. You may rub someone the wrong way and then good luck getting any advice.

I have not heard the FV15. I own the F15. All I have to go off of is what I've heard about the FV15 and what I know about the F15. Also what I know about servo designs... As I said earlier this is an output issue. I can guarantee you that all this worry about the sound quality of Rythmik's ported subs will be forgotten when you hear it. What subs have you heard? Unless you have heard some amazingly accurate subwoofers, you are analyzing this way to much. If you can't take ones word for it...then you must not read the paper or listen in history class... Because how would you know what happened if you weren't at Wounded Knee? You read about it and take people's word for it, right?

How much of this thread have you read? If you do a little reading you will find that Brian answers the same questions time and time again.

The point is as follows:
If you don't want to plunk down the cash to do the in home trial, you are left with one other option. Buy it and hope that it's good enough for your tastes. If it isn't return it and move on. I really don't know what else you want from us. We've laid it out for you, there comes a point where one has to make up their mind. With all due respect, sir.

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post #3106 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 04:38 PM
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The F15 or F15HP sound better than the FV15 or FV15HP. The advantage the FV's have is output at lower octave.

If your focus is HT, then I would go for an HV...especially in a larger room. If the room is small, a F will be more than enough, and you will get better sound quality.

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post #3107 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 05:02 PM
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[quote=benclement11;20232887.

I would watch your tone. You may rub someone the wrong way and then good luck getting any advice.

I have not heard the FV15. [/QUOTE]

My tone control is flat. I'm not the one who replies without reading the entire post,or not reading a poster's location before suggesting traveling. I believe you've rubbed a few folks the wrong way in the past, not me. I value the opinions of people who own or have heard the subwoofer under discussion. Those who haven't even heard it,not so much.
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post #3108 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post
Somehow buying all three and paying hundreds of dollars in return shipping for the two I'd return doesn't seem like a good deal
Get an FV15HP. If you like it you're done. If you don't explain to Brian why you don't. Basically if it's more than loud enough but not quite buttery enough then get the F15HP. For an ID sale I don't think you realistically expect a better deal.

I bought a Rythmik because I wanted a shiny black cube that would match my other shiny black stuff, because people had good things to say but mainly because Brian seems like someone that wants you to be happy with his products*. Buying unheard I was prepared to send it back and I think if I was genuinely unhappy everyone involved would be fine with that.

Deeper doubts mean you should be listening to things like the Paradigm SUB 15 or a DB1 courtesy of your local salon.

*Years ago I felt the same way after a 30 minute convesation with Richard Vandersteen -- of course I could audition Vandersteens.
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post #3109 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 05:18 PM
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Brian recommended a FV15(5db more output than a F15 and 1.6db more than a F15hp w/550amp) and I'll probably go with that. My concern wasn't output,it was sound quality(sealed vs. ported) and Brian said the FV15 is very articulate. He's the one who's heard them all. Unfortunately there are no local shops/salons,just Best Buy(what an ironic name). Thanks for your thoughts, now if I can only sell this damn Velodyne!
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post #3110 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post
The F15 or F15HP sound better than the FV15 or FV15HP. The advantage the FV's have is output at lower octave.

If your focus is HT, then I would go for an HV...especially in a larger room. If the room is small, a F will be more than enough, and you will get better sound quality.
Since my room was relatively small (2300 sqf), I actually ended up going with the E15 - as the smaller size allowed me to have much more flexibility in subwoofer location. That ported sub is a beast! =). Outside of some room EQ/AVR issues (which everyone here was very helpful with), I couldn't be happier.
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post #3111 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post
The excursion is good. You haven't used the full output yet.

Measuring directly out of sub (or close-mic measurement) is to double check the FR from the source is correct. However, it does not correlate with any sound level that AVR refers to. It is very helpful to get an SPL meter. There are quite a few CDs with warble tone tracks. you can use that to get an basic idea of FR in the room. In-room response and close-mic response measurements complement each other and give us a better picture of where the problem is and how to address it.
Glad to see the excursion is ok. I take it if there was a problem with the sub there would be little exursion going on at all? As far as output is concerned, is it a matter of just having the receiver volume turned up above reference levels to reach the "full output" (since I read you think its best to keep the gain at around 12:00) - or is it because testing out the sine waves of 20hz doesn't have the same intensity of some LFE tracks? I guess it would be nice to be able to reproduce what you are saying I should be seeing.

I definately want to invest in an SPL meter as well just to have. Any recommendations?
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post #3112 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 06:13 PM
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I was hoping we could discuss some of the amplifier settings on the A370PEQ-2 amp found on the FV15. I know they have been discussed here and there through this 100+pg thread, but I'm needing some additional input, perhaps in more layman terms.

Let's first start with the extension frequency...
14Hz
28Hz
20Hz
On the surface, to me this selection seems fairly straightforward. You decide how low/deep you want the sub to dig. But of course, everyone would prefer the lowest frequency possible. So I assume the factor that comes into play with this selection is listening volume. I'm guessing 14Hz at high volumes would greatly increase the risk for damage.

Next, damping level...
Hi
Mid
Low
I'm not real clear on the real world listening effect of damping other than high=clean, low=flabby/bloated. And based on the amp's quickguide documentation, and again, like extension freq., it seems this option has to be selected based on listening volume.

And finally (for now), Rumble filter...
On/Off
I understand this reduces frequencies below 20Hz, and also understand this is beneficial at high listening volumes. (to reduce risk of damage to the sub?) However, and this may be a foolish question, but don't you want subsonic frequencies intact, especially for movies, and to a much lesser extent for music? Next part of my question is how much are the frequencies reduced? Is it a straight cut off, or some kind of roll-off?

How do these settings interact with Audyssey calibration? Which settings, if any, can be switched back and forth without having to re-calibrate with Audyssey?

It seems like all of these settings are volume dependent...which makes me ask what does Rythmik consider to be low, moderate, and high SPLs? These are very subjective terms that are used in the documentation without any actual relevance to quantitative measures.



Thanks in advance for any help. I've been learning quite a bit from this thread and will be soon picking up the FV15 of F15...but still bouncing back and forth At least I've made a decision between HSU and Rythmic (for now lol)

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post #3113 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post

My tone control is flat. I'm not the one who replies without reading the entire post,or not reading a poster's location before suggesting traveling. I believe you've rubbed a few folks the wrong way in the past, not me. I value the opinions of people who own or have heard the subwoofer under discussion. Those who haven't even heard it,not so much.

I'm glad you made a decision. Now once you hear it and think "god I can't believe I was worried about the sound quality." Report back and let us all know how right we were. I'm not trying to be a jerk off but I don't think you realize how accurate these subs are. I can promise you have heard nothing like it. That's why it's silly to worry about sound quality with any of these subs. I would venture to guess that the ported Rythmik's sound better than a lot of sealed subs. Not only are you buying a great sub, you are supporting a great guy. I have nothing but praise for how Brian responds to questions through AVS, email and even phone calls. You can't beat the customer service.

If someone tells you that the sub is accurate and has lots of output what does that tell you without hearing the sub? What is the difference between me repeating what I have read about the sub and the person who actually has heard it saying the same thing? Does it tell you anymore? We can describe it all day, but it really isn't going to tell you anything. Yes you'll know it sounds good and is accurate. It is 100% clear by this entire conversation that you can truly not comprehend what we are talking about until you hear it. Thus is why you have to take ones word for it.

This is an output issue. If it were truly a sound quality issue, you would be going with the sealed sub...they sound better. Explain that to me.

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post #3114 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mannetti21 View Post

I was hoping we could discuss some of the amplifier settings on the A370PEQ-2 amp found on the FV15. I know they have been discussed here and there through this 100+pg thread, but I'm needing some additional input, perhaps in more layman terms.

Let's first start with the extension frequency...
14Hz
28Hz
20Hz
On the surface, to me this selection seems fairly straightforward. You decide how low/deep you want the sub to dig. But of course, everyone would prefer the lowest frequency possible. So I assume the factor that comes into play with this selection is listening volume. I'm guessing 14Hz at high volumes would greatly increase the risk for damage.

Next, damping level...
Hi
Mid
Low
I'm not real clear on the real world listening effect of damping other than high=clean, low=flabby/bloated. And based on the amp's quickguide documentation, and again, like extension freq., it seems this option has to be selected based on listening volume.

And finally (for now), Rumble filter...
On/Off
I understand this reduces frequencies below 20Hz, and also understand this is beneficial at high listening volumes. (to reduce risk of damage to the sub?) However, and this may be a foolish question, but don't you want subsonic frequencies intact, especially for movies, and to a much lesser extent for music? Next part of my question is how much are the frequencies reduced? Is it a straight cut off, or some kind of roll-off?

It seems like all of these settings are volume dependent...which makes me ask what does Rythmik consider to be low, moderate, and high SPLs? These are very subjective terms that are used in the documentation without any actual relevance to quantitative measures.



Thanks in advance for any help. I've been learning quite a bit from this thread and will be soon picking up the FV15 of F15...but still bouncing back and forth At least I've made a decision between HSU and Rythmic (for now lol)

Most music doesn't have subsonic frequencies. 90% is only down to around 30hz or so. It's all a preference thing. I really don't care about the frequencies I can't hear. Some people like the tactile feel. I think it sounds like you have the gist of it. I always get confused with which damping has the slower roll of though. I thought that low had the slower roll-off since the sound quality was less. But I think HIGH has the slower roll-off and low has the steeper roll-off. Someone should clarify that though, I never quite understood it.

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post #3115 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Most music doesn't have subsonic frequencies. 90% is only down to around 30hz or so. It's all a preference thing. I really don't care about the frequencies I can't hear. Some people like the tactile feel. I think it sounds like you have the gist of it. I always get confused with which damping has the slower roll of though. I thought that low had the slower roll-off since the sound quality was less. But I think HIGH has the slower roll-off and low has the steeper roll-off. Someone should clarify that though, I never quite understood it.

rumble filter for music makes sense. Regarding damping, I don't really get how a faster or slower roll-off affects sound quality. And just to be certain, my understanding of a roll-off is more or less the slope of the curve as it approaches 0Hz

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post #3116 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 07:03 PM
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rumble filter for music makes sense. Regarding damping, I don't really get how a faster or slower roll-off affects sound quality. And just to be certain, my understanding of a roll-off is more or less the slope of the curve as it approaches 0Hz

The rumble filter was originally designed for record players. I'm not exactly sure why as I don't have a record player. You really shouldn't need to turn it on for CD's as long as you don't listen insanely loud.

As far as roll-off effecting sound quality... I'm confused on the same thing. I don't know if they are separate things that happen to both be controlled by the damping setting or if there is a correlation between the two. You are exactly right about your thoughts on roll-off. It is essentially how fast the output rolls off at a certain frequency. Think of it as a car.... slowly coming to a stop or completely locking up the brakes. Kind of.

Low damping to me means that the roll-off is low...as in slow.
High damping to me means that the roll-off is high...as in fast.
BUT, I think it is the opposite. Which confuses the hell out of me.
Anyone care to explain?

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
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post #3117 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 07:16 PM
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now if I can only sell this damn Velodyne!

What Velodyne do you have ?

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I am debating moving from my current 2 F12's to 2 E15's. My system is used for music only and isn't played very loudly (normally ~60-70 db). My room is ~3000 cu. ft. so the upgrade could possibly help "fill" the room better. Any thoughts on what benefits I could expect from larger subs at mostly low-moderate listening levels?
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post #3119 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 07:47 PM
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I am debating moving from my current 2 F12's to 2 E15's. My system is used for music only and isn't played very loudly (normally ~60-70 db). My room is ~3000 cu. ft. so the upgrade could possibly help "fill" the room better. Any thoughts on what benefits I could expect from larger subs at mostly low-moderate listening levels?

From what I understood from talking to Brian is this and someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

I wanted to switch from an F15 to the FV15HP because I thought that it would fill the room better. Basically what he said is this:

The response in your room will not drastically change. What will change is how loud it sounds in the places that already do have bass. So if the output isn't an issue for you and even/balanced room response is...you may be better off just adding a few more F12's if you have room for it.

Panasonic P60ST50-Yamaha RX-V467 receiver-Sony PS3-Velodyne SMS-1-Canton 430 mains, 455 center and 402 surrounds-Rythmik FV15HP subwoofer- Pro-ject Debut III turntable- I also have a pair of Mark K's DIY design, the ER18DXT's
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post #3120 of 16550 Old 03-30-2011, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

Most music doesn't have subsonic frequencies. 90% is only down to around 30hz or so.

While the low string on a bass guitar is 42 Hz, and few people have organ music with 32 Hz (let alone 16 Hz) pipes, when you say "most music doesn't have subsonic frequencies" I think that leaves out all the percussive family, which includes drums and piano. The initial strike of a drum, or hammer on the string of a piano, does indeed have subsonic content. Furthermore, a lot of music has modulation products that produce subsonic terms.

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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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