Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 156 - AVS Forum
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post #4651 of 17211 Old 10-29-2011, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by monomer View Post

You are absolutely correct (I think)... this is exactly what I did in our upstairs living room theater (actually its more the wife's theater where asthetics rule... in the basement audio function rules absolute and it looks like a starship down there ). Yes, we have a high-backed lazy boy and I couldn't get Audyssey to 'hear' the room's FR correctly until I moved the lazyboy out of the way and took the measurement... what can I say? it seemed to have worked.

Excellent! Glad to see I'm not crazy lol. I know other people have said "don't move furniture!" with regard to calibration but I can't imagine what big difference it makes when most speakers are in front / to the side of you
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post #4652 of 17211 Old 10-29-2011, 10:11 AM
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Mono is your experience is there any minimum distance you should keep cal points from each other before things get messed up, or does it not make any difference (like if you wanted to use a smaller "bubble" but still use all 8 available measurements
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post #4653 of 17211 Old 10-29-2011, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

Mono is your experience is there any minimum distance you should keep cal points from each other before things get messed up, or does it not make any difference (like if you wanted to use a smaller "bubble" but still use all 8 available measurements

I've read the distance suggestions given in threads but have found that it doesn't really matter so long as its approximately where someone will be sitting. If its a couch then I equally space the mic positions to span the couch (excepting to not bother getting the absolute very ends)... and if its single seating I don't bother mic'ing any place between the seats with the exception of the very first position (since it will be used for averaging the distances and levels). I then use REW to advise me in adjusting the final sub distance/phasing after Audyssey has finished. Also I've been known to "season to taste" by boosting sub levels 3dB or there 'bouts.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #4654 of 17211 Old 10-29-2011, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by monomer View Post

I've read the distance suggestions given in threads but have found that it doesn't really matter so long as its approximately where someone will be sitting. If its a couch then I equally space the mic positions to span the couch (excepting to not bother getting the absolute very ends)... and if its single seating I don't bother mic'ing any place between the seats with the exception of the very first position (since it will be used for averaging the distances and levels). I then use REW to advise me in adjusting the final sub distance/phasing after Audyssey has finished. Also I've been known to "season to taste" by boosting sub levels 3dB or there 'bouts.

So in your trials you have had to tweak the sub distance/phase settings even afterwards? Which audyssey flavor do you have?
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post #4655 of 17211 Old 10-29-2011, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

So in your trials you have had to tweak the sub distance/phase settings even afterwards? Which audyssey flavor do you have?

Yes, but you should be aware, my set-up is a bit more complicated than the average situation with four subs (two are mid-bass modules and none are co-located) and tiered seating with the rows 6 feet apart... in the end, its all about compromises and REW helps me visualize my trade-offs. Basement theater is Mult-EQ XT (its an "Onik" 805). Upstairs situation is more normal and Audyssey has been "dead on" (Mult-EQ).

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #4656 of 17211 Old 10-29-2011, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post


The best sound for music is 14hz/hi damping. High damping has less ringing and it has a much more gradual roll-off.

The setting for auto calibration is just temporary. Let us assume the software is capable of achieving same consistent calibrated response if the pre-calibration curves are well behaved. BTW, switch damping control does not introduce new peak or null, so it is reasonable to assume Audyssey will come back with very similar calibrated curves. If one set the extension to 28hz, the software may even boost the band between 20hz and 30hz. So the idea to present the low damping curve to calibration program. And then check the sound. If you think it is too boomy, then you can switch the damping back to high. If one had used high damping for calibration, then there is no "ultra" high damping setting to fall back to. If the sound is good, there is no need to make further damping adjustment.

I encourage everyone to adapt the idea. Alternatively, one can also use 14hz/med damping for sealed subs and afterwards, one can use low damping to make the bass even more "full body" (or boomy)by switching back low damping, or more articulate by switching back to high damping. Of course, there is nothing wrong using 14hz/high damping for calibration if the result is right on what you expect. My rationale here is the software should also give you very similar calibrated curve if the damping were set to med damping or low damping. For vented subs, my recommendation is to use 14hz/low damping as the vented subs already sound more full body than sealed subs.

MJ.com,

When I say fine tuning, it is not meant to do huge adjustment. You may do a +/-3db to adjust because bass is less sensitive. In the example case I mentioned for front speaker design, a +/-1db adjustment already sufficient to make audible difference.

The reason I mentioned distance is important is one can use a common sense of physical distance plus and minus 1/2 wavelength as a sanity check window. If the software comes back with difference distance, it means the software was not able to calculate the distance correctly because the input data have huge anomalies that is either from strong reflection or other source. That is the first indication there is some trouble in the setup. We should do something to "help" the software. One thing we should know is sound travel faster then air. If one place the mic too close to the wall, hypothetically it can cause problem. Note that 1/2 wavelength means 180 degrees in phase difference. It already has sufficient margin to account for all errors. In reality, the actual value should be well within that range. For instance, wavelength of 80hz (the crossover point) is 12ft. Half wavelength is 6ft. So your sub distance should be within physical distance +/- 6ft. When something like this happen, try a different set of inputs and placement. If you got to have that placement location, you may need to do manual calibration instead.

Brian,

Thanks a TON for all your help! I did a re-cal today using your recommended settings and then turned the damping to high and am VERY happy with the results!! As always, your customer service is fabulous.

With relation to the 14hz/high damping setting, can that be used all the way up to reference level sound (or to 90db) safely without causing any damages, or will I need to adjust this every time I want to really "let the system rip"
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post #4657 of 17211 Old 10-29-2011, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Do you really believe that the best locations for bass reproduction in your room are exactly where your L/R speakers are placed?

No, I don't know that for sure, but I assumed when using a full range stereo speaker pair for L/R duties they are in that position. I thought this spot would be correct for bass reproduction.
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post #4658 of 17211 Old 10-29-2011, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by snakefist View Post

No, I don't know that for sure, but I assumed when using a full range stereo speaker pair for L/R duties they are in that position. I thought this spot would be correct for bass reproduction.

Unlikely, each room is different though and subs don't tend to be plug 'n play.
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post #4659 of 17211 Old 10-30-2011, 09:45 AM
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why are the F15 and F25 the same price?
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post #4660 of 17211 Old 10-30-2011, 09:53 AM
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Don't know where you are seeing this... I just now checked and it seems the F15 (black oak) is still $900 and the F25 is still $1300 sans shipping costs. Perhaps a link to the location on the website where you are getting your info would be helpful.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #4661 of 17211 Old 10-30-2011, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by monomer View Post

Don't know where you are seeing this... I just now checked and it seems the F15 (black oak) is still $900 and the F25 is still $1300 sans shipping costs. Perhaps a link to the location on the website where you are getting your info would be helpful.

Oh whoops I meant F15HP, sorry!
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post #4662 of 17211 Old 10-30-2011, 09:59 AM
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Well then I think you got your answer (also it appears you were comparing the F25 black oak to the F15HP SE version). If you compare the F25 with the black oak version F15HP then the difference would be $186 inlcuding shipping costs (stateside, excluding Texas). So which one were you thinking of purchasing? or were you just window shopping? Both would be excellent choices but I guess it really depends upon your particular theater space needs and asthetics.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #4663 of 17211 Old 10-30-2011, 10:36 AM
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Oh no, not buying (I wish I could afford those ATM), but I was just looking at them and was wondering why a sub with two drivers was the same (I saw both being $1299) price as the single driver sub.
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post #4664 of 17211 Old 10-30-2011, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snakefist View Post

I thought this spot would be correct for bass reproduction.

It rare that the best locations in a room for soundstage and imaging are also the best locations for low frequency playback. So the powered tower approach, while aesthetically elegant, typically won't yield the best sonics. You'd be better off moving the subs around your room until you find better locations for bass reproduction. In which case you might want to re-consider dual-8" drivers in a pair of towers and instead go with two 12" or 15" subwoofers in more conventional cabinets.

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post #4665 of 17211 Old 10-31-2011, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

No. Actually Q value lower than 0.5 begins the degenerate into a -6db/oct (first order) up higher and then a -12db/oct.

In view of the answer I gave you and MJ.com in terms of fine tuning sound quality, I need to explain a bit more so that members here understand where my comments are from. Otherwise it can be easily misquoted. Early on when I designed the directservo subwoofers, setting it up to flat frequency response is easy. But still I noticed other factors affecting sound quality. For instance, the current sensing resistors, I could have cut cost and used a regular low cost cement resistor. But the sound lacks the resonance of natural instruments. It has no trialling tail in the sound. I read people commented our subs are dry. They haven't heard our subs with cement resistor has sensing resistors. That is really dry. I don't like dry sound. Similar thing goes to opamp. RC4558 has similar trait as cement resistors and I would never used them. TL072 has more full body sound with plenty resonance. OPA2134 is clean and articulate and the bass resonance is between RC4558 and TL072. Eventually I come up with my own cocktail mix of these two opamps. The sound is, as everyone knows, articulate and yet natural. I have been used that combination forever. But I know some may have a different preference of sound quality. The best way is to adjust the FR to achieve that goal. If that still does not work, I can send them cement resistors to replace existing MILLS resistor for a different sound characteristic. When I mentioned common sense, what I meant is best known practice. And what I have observed corelated very well with what other has observed too. That is another assurance that I am on the right track. Otherwise, that is against best known practice.

I was just pulling your legs after seeing the 'Ultra damping' , but I do appreciate a small inner detail of your design.
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post #4666 of 17211 Old 11-02-2011, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by castaƱo View Post

FV15HP will be available by the end of November. We are waiting just for the amplifiers (PEQ3 series)

Is this also the case with the F12SE?
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post #4667 of 17211 Old 11-02-2011, 10:03 PM
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I have eventually asembled my DS1510/a600peq and it's working nicely but there is one problem. As the amp warms up the humming/buzzing of the toroid becomes really anoying. When cold humming is still there, although it should not be there, but after an hour of listening it becomes too audible. Has any of you experienced that problem? Or your toroids are dead quiet?

cheers,
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post #4668 of 17211 Old 11-03-2011, 04:22 AM
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Transformers are dead quiet here. Perhaps you should give Brian a call...

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #4669 of 17211 Old 11-03-2011, 05:24 AM
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Very much enjoying my new FV-12. I am wondering how the line level inputs work with regard to this amplifier. Somewhere in this thread I thought I remembered reading that running a "Y" so that both sub inputs are fed from the same line input results in a "3 db" gain in volume. Is this so? The way I'm running it now, I've got one input fed by the line out of my music preamp (full frequency, using sub low pass to adjust bass blend), and the other fed by my LFE (low freq effects) output from the other preamp/processor I use for HT. (Actually for movies I rely on the DAC processing and 5.1 outs in the Sony ES Blu-Ray player (which are much better than that in the pre/pro), and the preamp just serves as the "volume control.") The music preamp is "off" while playing movies (L/R amp has both balanced and unbalanced inputs, switchable, so I don't have to move interconnect cables), so that only one input to FV12 is fed at a time. This is convenient for me, as I enjoy both 2 channel music and my 5.1 HT.
Now does this really mean I have 3db less amplifier power available, or is it just a matter of setting the volume control a bit higher for the same output levels? That is, is the amplifier actually a stereo pair, so that I'm only using a maximum 150W at a time when feeding only one line input?
It would be interesting to see a schematic or line diagram for that amp - is one available on-line somewhere?
Second question: for those who've used both the paper cone FV12 and the much more expensive F12, is the characteristic sound of the woofer driver different? I've found the FV12 from 25-60 hz is musical sounding, and fairly "tight" - and it really doesn't seem to matter too much how the damping is set. I use a CD with test tones from 20hz on up to set mine up, switching the main amp on and off to hear the effect of the sub alone, and with L/R main speakers. It blends well, and is "musical," but I wonder how much better the other units "sound." I realize the FV12 is recommended to be used only with the bass management of a home theater processor/receiver, but mine is blending well with my L/R monitors in stereo usage too.
My personal philosophy about bass has always been that you're mainly paying for horsepower and that "moving air" is the sub's job, and these FV12s certainly do that well. The servo system is fantastic, and, at this price point, just unprecedented. For background, I've used a Velodyne F1500 servo for many years, and have admired the servo technology ever since buying it, but, of course, it cost a lot more than the FV12. Congratulations on offering such as great product at such a great price! Now, sell me on getting a separate F12 or F15 for my music system!

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post #4670 of 17211 Old 11-03-2011, 07:34 AM
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I only briefly scanned your posting above and may have missed some things but I will try to give a response...

1) I'm not an electronics nerd at all so I tend to imagine things in a way that makes sense to me so with that said... I tend to think of an amplifier as always being fully ON and all you change is the amplitude of the input signal (gain) to obtain greater or less output volume. That means your amplifier will always have the same output power capabilities regardless... you will gain no more nor less from the amp's power capabilities by adjusting the amplitude of the input signal... it simply takes whatever amplitude signal it gets and makes it bigger by a set amount. However the output from the amp will need to be level calibrated to blend properly with the other speakers in your system and therefore you will adjust the input gain of the amp to do this. If your single input signal gives 3dB less then you increase the input gain at the amplifier (for the 3dBs) and the output is back where it needs to be... nothing's lost nor gained in terms of the power output amp is capable of.

2) You're likely not to get much response that will be valid, since I doubt many of us Rythmik owners have heard both FV12 and F12 in the same room environment and sources... especially with the FV12 being such a new offering. Brian is probably going to be about your only resource for a reasonable comparison.

"For deep bass, the listener is not really listening to the speaker, but rather, is listening to the room as it is being played by the speaker."
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post #4671 of 17211 Old 11-03-2011, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnosys View Post

Very much enjoying my new FV-12. I am wondering how the line level inputs work with regard to this amplifier. Somewhere in this thread I thought I remembered reading that running a "Y" so that both sub inputs are fed from the same line input results in a "3 db" gain in volume. Is this so? The way I'm running it now, I've got one input fed by the line out of my music preamp (full frequency, using sub low pass to adjust bass blend), and the other fed by my LFE (low freq effects) output from the other preamp/processor I use for HT. (Actually for movies I rely on the DAC processing and 5.1 outs in the Sony ES Blu-Ray player (which are much better than that in the pre/pro), and the preamp just serves as the "volume control.") The music preamp is "off" while playing movies (L/R amp has both balanced and unbalanced inputs, switchable, so I don't have to move interconnect cables), so that only one input to FV12 is fed at a time. This is convenient for me, as I enjoy both 2 channel music and my 5.1 HT.
Now does this really mean I have 3db less amplifier power available, or is it just a matter of setting the volume control a bit higher for the same output levels? That is, is the amplifier actually a stereo pair, so that I'm only using a maximum 150W at a time when feeding only one line input?
It would be interesting to see a schematic or line diagram for that amp - is one available on-line somewhere?
Second question: for those who've used both the paper cone FV12 and the much more expensive F12, is the characteristic sound of the woofer driver different? I've found the FV12 from 25-60 hz is musical sounding, and fairly "tight" - and it really doesn't seem to matter too much how the damping is set. I use a CD with test tones from 20hz on up to set mine up, switching the main amp on and off to hear the effect of the sub alone, and with L/R main speakers. It blends well, and is "musical," but I wonder how much better the other units "sound." I realize the FV12 is recommended to be used only with the bass management of a home theater processor/receiver, but mine is blending well with my L/R monitors in stereo usage too.
My personal philosophy about bass has always been that you're mainly paying for horsepower and that "moving air" is the sub's job, and these FV12s certainly do that well. The servo system is fantastic, and, at this price point, just unprecedented. For background, I've used a Velodyne F1500 servo for many years, and have admired the servo technology ever since buying it, but, of course, it cost a lot more than the FV12. Congratulations on offering such as great product at such a great price! Now, sell me on getting a separate F12 or F15 for my music system!

The 3 db gain has nothing to do with amplifier power. What is happening is that you are sending an increased input signal to the amplifier. You do nothing to increase the total amplifier output. The absolute amplifier output maximum will be the same. As you said, it is a matter of increasing the gain with the input instead of the gain nob on the back of the amplifier.
As for Question 2, I have no experience at this point.
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post #4672 of 17211 Old 11-03-2011, 10:53 AM
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Thanks for the replies - kind of what I thought, unless there are actually two separate 150w amps in there, independently fed.

The FV12 also has fixed 12db/octave low pass and fixed rumble filter, I read. Still, I'm not getting much at all in unwanted music pass through with the low pass around 50hz...

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post #4673 of 17211 Old 11-03-2011, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by gnosys View Post

Thanks for the replies - kind of what I thought, unless there are actually two separate 150w amps in there, independently fed.

The FV12 also has fixed 12db/octave low pass and fixed rumble filter, I read. Still, I'm not getting much at all in unwanted music pass through with the low pass around 50hz...

The way I understand it, and people can correct me if I'm wrong, is that the two inputs on the AMP are parallel inputs and feed the amp (1x300w) in the same way.
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post #4674 of 17211 Old 11-03-2011, 03:47 PM
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I'd like to know what owners of the FV15HP think of their sub. I'm probably going to buy one when amplifiers are available. Performance wise, it seems like someone posted that it falls between the PB12 plus and the PB13 Ultra.
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post #4675 of 17211 Old 11-03-2011, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

You are correct. F25 is for those who want higher output from smaller footprint (because it is taller, or literally is two stacked F15) or minimal wiring. Otherwise, it would be just slightly cheaper than F15 x2 minus discount. I have been holding off the shipment of F25 becuase I really like to offer 400Wrms x2 plates and not having customers have buyer's remose later.

Pardon my ignorance here, I've been trying to dig up new info on the F25. Has there been any new developments? Availability?
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post #4676 of 17211 Old 11-06-2011, 03:01 PM
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I've started a build thread in the DIY section which captures the progress of the build of two enclosures for my music and Home Theatre set-up.

I have the DS1510 withe H600 amp and am building a pair of sealed enclosures.

I thought there may be interest here in the project.

Brad
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post #4677 of 17211 Old 11-06-2011, 10:28 PM
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Anyone mind chiming in on the maximum SPL I should listen to with my E15 set at 14hz/high damping? Maybe it doesn't matter for music and is only a concern with movies (since the setup guide says that setting is appropriate for music but to go to low damping plus the rumble filter for movies/high SPL)? My question is, what about loud music? :P
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post #4678 of 17211 Old 11-07-2011, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

My question is, what about loud music?

I'm unaware of any music that approaches the output levels of of LFE. Recall that (or review the posttings about) How to Train Your Dragon was the trigger for output adjustment, not any musical piece.
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post #4679 of 17211 Old 11-11-2011, 10:15 AM
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Rythmik is offering me an additional 15% off, due to my military service. I want the FV12; however, I'm hard-pressed to find any reviews. Also, I want a subwoofer that will reach 20Hz. So, will the FV12 be sufficient? Thanks
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post #4680 of 17211 Old 11-11-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wowyahoo View Post

Rythmik is offering me an additional 15% off, due to my military service. I want the FV12; however, I'm hard-pressed to find any reviews. Also, I want a subwoofer that will reach 20Hz. So, will the FV12 be sufficient? Thanks

Is this for all military members both retired and active?
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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Rythmik , Rythmik Audio , Rythmik Audio F12 Direct Servo Subwoofer , Rythmik Audio F15 Subwoofer

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